AVIAN FLU

[johnny11]

 

This was picked up on another site.

 

Subject: "press release homing pigeons"

Ladies and Gentlemen,

We received the following press release as a result of the latest measures taken in Germany concerning the protection against Avian Flue:

- effect on homing pigeons -

we like to point out that, in view of the current measures taken by our federal and regional governments, homing pigeons are not affected by these current preventative protection measures. Pigeons do not fall under the kind of birds affected by the new measures.

The reason for this is that pigeons, and especially homing pigeons, do not hold any risc for transfering the disease. Contrary to waterfowl and poultry, pigeons are insensitive to the AvianFlue virus.

Essen, October 20, 2005

German homing pigeon federation

Horst Menzel

- President -

[Guest]

Was waiting for English translation, Johnny11, but reckoned I could read enough German to know what it was (Pigeonparadise last night).

 

Reckon sh** hits the fan three times today:

 

(1) Mainland Europe don't know anything about Dr Kaleta's knowledge of the ability of pigeons to carry the virus on their feathers. They still believe pigeons to be 'immune'.

 

(2) Dr David Swayne was emailed on Monday for clarification on his Thailand pigeon experiments and where he got the virus from. He hasn't responded. Repeat email to him today.

 

(3) CNN Daytime 06:40 time ran an interview with World Wildlife Organisation who in a joint survey in Mongolia in the summer, discovered H5N1 had crossed-over into the wild migratory bird population for the first time. Yet DEFRA has a 'low risk of these birds bringing the disease here' assessment. They have amateurs,  wildfowlers with dogs out there sampling these birds.

[johnny11]

Bruno

 

In my job I have access to some of the best/ most important people in Avian Medicine/ Avian Pathology, mainly Dr Frank Jordan. I have been trying to see them but unfortunately due to the increase work load because of this they have been unavailable. What these guys dont know about this disease is probably not worth knowing. As soon as I seek their advice I will post what they say on the matter.

 

bruno without sounding patronising and this is not meant to be nasty in any way Are you connected with the poultry field at all.

[jimmy white]

johny 11    exellant letter from german   homming union, wish we could get a press release like that, from our own unions, so that any snooping with the press could be answerd, simply by handing them [,the unions press release [, they are going to get some story by hook or by crook, so they are as well getting the true facts , as printed by the german president.    you are in a good job to find out things but i would have thought that dr frank jordans info, would be very private, but seeking thir advice, would be great, i think there are a few poultry and farm workers also on this forum, who have all contributed to the posts,,im not sure if bruno is connected to poultry in any way, but has certainly dug up plenty of info, and kept us up to date, i should think that it would take a lot of time and work for this, im sure there are many opinions on all this, but at least we have this forum , for debate, i personally thank all for their,opinions, info, and posts on this subject

[Guest]

No Johnny11 - no poultry connections at all, past present or future. Why do you ask?

[johnny11]

Bruno

 

Just wondering as your knowledge seems very good and you seem well up to date on the current issues.

 

John

[Guest]

Thanks John. Well up to date with one of my own issues right now - I've had flu since Tuesday. Luckily not 'avian' variety, otherwise I'd probly look more like Jimmy White by now!!  ;D

 

Shouldn't really laugh (at both AI & JW that is).

 

As you say Rose, with the man in Thailand it was almost ill one day and gone the next. Don't know if you caught BBC NEWS24 go to Thailand on Wednesday: Correspondant tells us eveything is fine there, everything under control - yet unknown to us there's a man in hospital dying of the disease, (died Thursday) and his 7 year old son is in hospital too with the same thing. Definitely on a need to know basis with this now.

[Guest]

David E. Swayne, DVM, PhD

Laboratory Director

Southeast Poultry Research Laboratory

USDA/ARS

934 College Station Road

Athens, Georgia

Telephone: 706-546-3433

Fax: 706-546-3161

 

 

Dear Doctor Swayne,

 

I fear my original email to you on Monday has gone adrift. If you have been busy or on holiday or ill, please excuse me repeating it again to you today.

 

[justify]Gordon Chalmers has provided me with references to your work on avian influenza in pigeons. I wonder if you can be of further help. I am gathering information on how best racing pigeon fanciers can protect themselves and their birds from this disease. At the moment this seems best achieved by confining the birds to their lofts to prevent all contact with and cross-infection from the wild bird / migrating bird populations. But there appears to be conflicting evidence on whether Avian Influenza can infect pigeons. [/justify]

 

[justify]Your 2002 work using A/HONGKONG/97 (H5N1) appears to show 0 probability of pigeons being affected by avian influenza. I believe this is still the general opinion in the field that pigeons are resistant to it. [/justify]

 

[justify]However, the current A/HONGKONG/2002 (H5N1) strain now appears capable of at least limited infection in feral pigeons, e.g. Hong Kong 2002 and Thailand (2005?). I believe you experimented with H5N1 isolates from the Thailand pigeons and achieved 20% - 40% infection rate. My first question is on these virus isolates: in which part (s) of the pigeon were they discovered?[/justify]

 

[justify]Does this previously 0% infections upward movement to between 20% and 40% infections show an underlying trend? The quote I was given from your work, also showed these results the 'other way round' i.e. 60% - 80% not infected. I believe that may mask an underlying trend: a movement from the previous 0% infection probability to between 20% and 40% infection probability. If so, it tends to confirm what we already know about H5N1 in the wild: that this is a highly adaptable, virulent and aggressive strain. My second question: Is it now capable of infecting pigeons too?[/justify]

 

I would appreciate your comments on these layperson thoughts.

 

Thank you

 

 

Dear (Bruno)

 

The numbers below are in general correct concerning H5N1 HPAI virus infection. This study used two 2004 viruses from Thailand, one isolated from a dead pigeon and the other a dead crow. The negative results in of 60-80% are indicative of the resistance of pigeons to the virus, verses giving the same viruses and concentration to chickens infects and kills 100%. Domestic ducks studies are similar.

 

What information is lacking:

 

1) the natural infection rate in wild pigeons

2) the minimum exposure dose of the viruses to infect pigeons

3) Do the newer H5N1 viruses from Asia produce similar infection rates as the 2004 Thailand viruses

 

My recommendation to protect:

 

1) If the virus is identified in your region - which I have not heard of any in Scotland - you should not fly your birds until so designated by the agriculture ministry of UK

2) If you have pigeons die in the loft - submit the bird for a diagnostic work-up at a veterinary diagnostic laboratory - especially virus isolation.

 

Best wishes

David E. Swayne, DVM, PhD

 

 

 

[Guest]

EXTRACT FROM SCOTSMAN: FRI 21ST OCTOBER 05

 

All the best inventions come out of Scotland :  :B

 

"H5N1 made its world debut in 1959 inside a Scots chicken on an Aberdeen farm. The dead bird was taken to Surrey for medical investigation, after infecting two flocks of chickens.

 

The case notes still gather dust as the virus has grown far  deadlier over these last 46 years. Research papers on the current virus confirm its 'Made in Scotland' heritage.

 

Dr J E Wilson, of the Veterinary Laboratory in Lasswade, outside Edinburgh, worked on the case - sending the chicken to Addlestone, where the strain was isolated for experiments. Its title: Chicken/Scotland/1959.

 

It was the first of 21 avian flu outbreaks that have affected the world, including English turkeys in 1963, 1979, and 1991.

 

Tom Pennycote, avian veterinary specialist at the Scottish Agricultural College, Ayrshire, said the virus may have the same title, but the characteristics will have changed over 46 years. Even the 1991 one will be different from the one now on the loose...none had infected humans until 1997 in Hong Kong (6 casualties). It was also incapable of moving from species to species until 2004, in South Korea, infecting pigs, rodents and humans.

 

Scientists have been most alarmed at the fast rate of H5N1's mutation. For the first time, the virus can survive in chicken faeces and in dead meat, without requiring the flow of fresh blood. This has made it stealthier, claiming victims who had no obvious connection with the agricultural industry."

 

 

 

[Silverdale Lofts]

American parrot imported in mid september has died in quarantine in the uk the bird had avian flu revealed today on sky

[Guest]

SOUTH America

 

[Guest]

Avian Flu found in parrot (in quarantine with others ) story at:

 

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4365956.stm

[Mistifire]

Found this on another pigeon board seems to be a good sign that they are looking into it and not jumping to conclusions.

 

http://www.avian-influenza.com/

 

Quote from site:

"Avian Influenza in Pigeons

 

 

Various studies have been carried out to determine the role of pigeons in the spread of avian influenza. These studies have determined that pigeons are resistant or minimally susceptible to infection with HPAIV or NPAIV and probably play a minimal epidemiological role in the spread of the viruses.

 

For further information see the following two articles:

 

Pathogenicity of a Hong Kong-origin H5N1 highly pathogenic avian influenza virus for emus, geese, ducks, and pigeons.

Perkins LE, Swayne DE

 

Pigeons were inoculated intranasally with A/chicken/Hong Kong/220/97 (H5N1) highly pathogenic avian influenza virus. They seemed resistant to infection not showing any clinical signs or gross and histologic lesions and the virus was not re-isolated.

 

 

Susceptibility of pigeons to avian influenza.

Panigrahy B, Senne DA, Pedersen JC, Shafer AL, Pearson JE

 

Pigeons were inoculated with non-pathogenic avian influenza virus and highly pathogenic avian influenza virus. The pigeons remained clinically healthy and virus was not re-isolated."

 

  The original post can be found here:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=12151  

on the pigeon talk board credit goes to poster "bartuska"

[Mistifire]

Found this on another pigeon board seems to be a good sign that they are looking into it and not jumping to conclusions.

 

http://www.avian-influenza.com/

 

Quote from site:

"Avian Influenza in Pigeons

 

 

Various studies have been carried out to determine the role of pigeons in the spread of avian influenza. These studies have determined that pigeons are resistant or minimally susceptible to infection with HPAIV or NPAIV and probably play a minimal epidemiological role in the spread of the viruses.

 

For further information see the following two articles:

 

Pathogenicity of a Hong Kong-origin H5N1 highly pathogenic avian influenza virus for emus, geese, ducks, and pigeons.

Perkins LE, Swayne DE

 

Pigeons were inoculated intranasally with A/chicken/Hong Kong/220/97 (H5N1) highly pathogenic avian influenza virus. They seemed resistant to infection not showing any clinical signs or gross and histologic lesions and the virus was not re-isolated.

 

 

Susceptibility of pigeons to avian influenza.

Panigrahy B, Senne DA, Pedersen JC, Shafer AL, Pearson JE

 

Pigeons were inoculated with non-pathogenic avian influenza virus and highly pathogenic avian influenza virus. The pigeons remained clinically healthy and virus was not re-isolated."

 

  The original post can be found here:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=12151  

on the pigeon talk board credit goes to poster "bartuska"

[Mistifire]

Found this on another pigeon board seems to be a good sign that they are looking into it and not jumping to conclusions.

 

http://www.avian-influenza.com/

 

Quote from site:

"Avian Influenza in Pigeons

 

 

Various studies have been carried out to determine the role of pigeons in the spread of avian influenza. These studies have determined that pigeons are resistant or minimally susceptible to infection with HPAIV or NPAIV and probably play a minimal epidemiological role in the spread of the viruses.

 

For further information see the following two articles:

 

Pathogenicity of a Hong Kong-origin H5N1 highly pathogenic avian influenza virus for emus, geese, ducks, and pigeons.

Perkins LE, Swayne DE

 

Pigeons were inoculated intranasally with A/chicken/Hong Kong/220/97 (H5N1) highly pathogenic avian influenza virus. They seemed resistant to infection not showing any clinical signs or gross and histologic lesions and the virus was not re-isolated.

 

 

Susceptibility of pigeons to avian influenza.

Panigrahy B, Senne DA, Pedersen JC, Shafer AL, Pearson JE

 

Pigeons were inoculated with non-pathogenic avian influenza virus and highly pathogenic avian influenza virus. The pigeons remained clinically healthy and virus was not re-isolated."

 

  The original post can be found here:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=12151  

on the pigeon talk board credit goes to poster "bartuska"

[Mistifire]

Found this on another pigeon board seems to be a good sign that they are looking into it and not jumping to conclusions.

 

http://www.avian-influenza.com/

 

Quote from site:

"Avian Influenza in Pigeons

 

 

Various studies have been carried out to determine the role of pigeons in the spread of avian influenza. These studies have determined that pigeons are resistant or minimally susceptible to infection with HPAIV or NPAIV and probably play a minimal epidemiological role in the spread of the viruses.

 

For further information see the following two articles:

 

Pathogenicity of a Hong Kong-origin H5N1 highly pathogenic avian influenza virus for emus, geese, ducks, and pigeons.

Perkins LE, Swayne DE

 

Pigeons were inoculated intranasally with A/chicken/Hong Kong/220/97 (H5N1) highly pathogenic avian influenza virus. They seemed resistant to infection not showing any clinical signs or gross and histologic lesions and the virus was not re-isolated.

 

 

Susceptibility of pigeons to avian influenza.

Panigrahy B, Senne DA, Pedersen JC, Shafer AL, Pearson JE

 

Pigeons were inoculated with non-pathogenic avian influenza virus and highly pathogenic avian influenza virus. The pigeons remained clinically healthy and virus was not re-isolated."

 

  The original post can be found here:

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=12151  

on the pigeon talk board credit goes to poster "bartuska"

[Guest]

Mistifire, thank you for your posts. You have unwittingly provided us with the very last piece of the jigsaw puzzle: an extract of Panigraphy's work, which Gordon Chalmers referred us to, and which I have not been able to run down ... until now.

 

I've also looked at the website you direct us to. Really scary. I have never seen so many people so ill informed on avian flu as it affects pigeons and people.

 

I mean no disrespect to these people either, because it is the scientists and the way that they present the information to us ordinary people that is truly at fault here. Ordinary people also seize upon phrases they most readily understand 'resistant to the virus' being one of them. Two things: there's no such thing as 'the virus', there's a strain of it - each has a special name and certain infective properties associated only with that strain. (2) no scientist EVER said ANYTHING was resistant to Avian flu, far less pigeons.

 

If you read the extract, PANIGRAPHY DIDN'T EVEN EXPERIMENT WITH H5N1. So how can anyone say his work is relevant to H5N1, pigeons and their owners?

 

 

The most recent work that we have access to is post 250 of 21st October. Dr David Swayne. (You referred to his work Swayne & Perkins. The virus used was ?/HONGKONG/97 H5N1). Just look at the way that he presented the results of his latest experiments using pigeon/Thailand/2004 H5N1 to us ordinary people:

 

"The numbers below are in general correct concerning H5N1 HPAI virus infection. This study used two 2004 viruses from Thailand, one isolated from a dead pigeon and the other a dead crow. The negative results in of 60-80% are indicative of the resistance of pigeons to the virus, verses giving the same viruses and concentration to chickens infects and kills 100%."

 

WHAT THE F* DOES THAT MEAN?

 

"We took H5N1 virus from a dead pigeon in Thailand in 2004. We put the virus into 100 pigeons. Between 20 and 40 of them became infected with Avian flu. If we had put the virus into 100 chickens instead, all 100 would have become infected with Avian flu. So compared to a damned chicken, pigeons are relatively resistant to Avian flu."

 

Compared to a chicken, I'm relatively resistant to Avian flu too.

 

David Swayne also goes on to caution that the latest versions of the virus, for example, the ones in Europe, may be far deadlier again than the Thailand 2004 version - which can infect pigeons and people, the two things that we need to know most about to keep ourselves safe from this virus.

 

Mistifire: I would be pleased if you would post this up on the other website. It might be the wake-up call that these people need.

 

[Guest]

EUROPE: Countries with H5N1 infection.

 

Romania, Turkey, Greece, Bulgaria, Croatia, Hungary.

[THE FIFER]

ANYONE KNOW WHAT "AVIAN CHLAMYDIOSIS" IS, ITS A BIRD FLU, WHICH IS MENTIONED IN A PIGEON HEALTH BOOK I HAVE WHICH WAS PRINTED A FEW YEARS AGO, IT GIVES SYMTOMS AND TREATEMENT, IS IT TO DO WITH THE ONE WE ARE CONCERNED ABOUT NOW.ANY ANSWERS.

[Guest]

Chlamydia is a virus, Fifer, but not a flu virus.

 

Widespread throughout the animal kingdom - including humans where it causes the most widespread Sexually Transmitted Disease.

 

'Our' Chlamydia is the virus behind Ornithosis in pigeons, a respiratory disease, also causing conjuctivitis (eye inflamation).

 

Nothing to do with Avian flu - although it too causes respiratory and eye problems in birds and humans.

 

 

[Glassfeather]

Sorry I didn't come back to you guys on this sooner, have been a bit busy as my wife just delivered our baby daughter on thursday. Thanks to all of you for your response, I have to say that I was really just hoping for someone in Bromley to say they would be happy to talk to the guy. I understand the concerns about media involvement, I can't really see a newspaper being interested in what pigeon fanciers think except to highlight bird keepers as possible vectors. I appreciate the info you have provided Bruno and it would be nice if we could rely on a journalist to put these views across in a beneficial manner, but I simply can't give any assurances about the guy, I don't know him or the paper, he just contacted me. Anyway, I'm afraid I side-stepped and referred him to the RPRA website.

 

 

[THE FIFER]

cheers bruno and rose, this book was written by captain jim flood a fellow scribe of mine with the old pigeon sport paper, he was with the army medical core i believe, and with the nhs labs last i heard,

                                                 well done,

[Guest]

Congratualtions Glassfeather.

 

Bests for the future

[Guest]

Congratulations, Glassfeather  

 

Support your 'reporter' decision too.  

[preston powerblast]

Have you read this?

http://www.defra.gov.uk/news/2005/051021f.htm