AVIAN FLU

[Guest]

The Scotsman, which previously carried horror stories on pigeons, devoted 9 pages to  Avian flu on Friday 7th April:-

 

On Pages 3/4 'It would be difficult for people to catch bird flu in the UK, even if they really tried hard' Professor John Oxford (British expert on Avian flu) says:-

 

"Everyone will now be thinking of the robins in their garden, their cat or the pigeons in a railway station, but I don't think they need to worry. Pigeons are not at the moment considered to be carriers. Right now the focus is all on migrating water birds, ducks and possibly geese. Not sparrows, starlings, robins or pigeons. You dont get starlings mixing with swans... "

 

And a second opinion is given: on pages 2/3, Q&A : Q What should I do about pigeons?:-

 

"A Microbiologist Professor Hugh Pennington (Food Standards Agency, Scotland) says that residents should not worry about pigeons unless they were in very close proximity. He says: If they were nested in your front room and they were dying, I would be concerned. Other than that, I wouldn't worry."

 

At present, pigeons are unlikely carriers and pigeons simply flying close to people are not thought to be a risk. It is however wise to carry out basic hygiene procedures if in contact with pigeon droppings.

 

 

[Guest shadow]

Dead swan found in Cleethorpes Lincolnshire DEFRA informed awaitng test results. Hope they are negative.

On investigation the swan was killed by a fox.

 

 

[mealybar]

Just my opinion, but I think when they have tested all the birds that have been reported around Fife, they will all be found to be negative for the H5N1 type virus.

 

My opinion again, the swan which has proved positive for H5N1 in Fife was on its way over here fron Germany and didn't make it , it then came in on the tide,

 

All the best and good luck to all this year

 

Mick McGrevy  

 

The BBC: "A preliminary report into the death of the swan says provisional tests suggest the virus was very close to those found in wild birds in outbreaks in Europe.

 

BBC Radio Four's Today programme was told the virus found was an almost exact match to that found in an outbreak in the island of Ruegen, off north east Germany, in February."

 

I thought it strange that to say they found the bird in the water, they didnt have the risk zone up river, or on the other bank. Lets hope this was a swan washed in, and it can be kept as a single isolated case

[Guest]

 

The BBC: "A preliminary report into the death of the swan says provisional tests suggest the virus was very close to those found in wild birds in outbreaks in Europe.

 

BBC Radio Four's Today programme was told the virus found was an almost exact match to that found in an outbreak in the island of Ruegen, off north east Germany, in February."

 

I thought it strange that to say they found the bird in the water, they didnt have the risk zone up river, or on the other bank. Lets hope this was a swan washed in, and it can be kept as a single isolated case

 

 

While I share your hopes that it is an isolated case, this news of 'source' couldn't be any worse:

 

As at 31st March, Germany has reported 229 confirmed cases of H5N1 in wild birds to the OIE. These outbreaks have occurred  the length and breadth of the country, and there is now a case in poultry. So this is a pretty virulent strain, I'd say, and not one we'd want here.

 

I also have a bit of difficulty with the 'drifted-in' theory. There were reports of gulls dive-bombing the carcase in the harbour and bits of the bird were missing. Had this bird come to grief deep in the North Sea, would have reckoned on there being nothing left after the gulls at sea had had their fill. And what was left would surely have ended up as fish-food, and deep water fish at that.

 

 

[mickmcgrevy]

You may well be right about the " drifted in theory" but if it had been brought in by a live bird, don't you think that there would have been a lot more confirmed cases ?

 

Because there have been a lot more confirmed cases in Germany, I think that it is reasonable to assume that there would have been a lot more cases in Britain, if it was not for that wide stretch of water which the birds would have had to cross. Because they were ill, I think a lot of them have gone down in the sea, and as you point out they will have dissappeared into the depths never to be seen again.

 

Just an opinion    Ive still got my fingers crossed.

 

All the best

Mick  

[Guest]

Mick & Rose:

 

I take your points about single birds but that is exactly what is being found dead in the wild, ones and twos rather than dozens  or even hundreds - except at the source of the current outbreak at Quangia lake, Mongolia (last summer) when thousands of migratory waterfowl died.

 

There's a lot of things we don't yet know about this virus. Nobody yet knows which bird species or groups of species are the carriers: the ones that incubate and shed the virus and infect others, but don't fall ill themselves.

 

The swans are being used just like the pit canary - both give you early warning that something nasty is about, but the swans are just another innocent victim of the virus, as Mike says, they usually die without infecting others .. except this dead swan was partly eaten. We know carrion that eat infected meat become infected themselves (buzzards, crows, falcons, hawks, cats and weasel-type mammals have all been recorded as infected due to feeding on infected carcases). What we don't know is the disease incubation period and whether the carrion will pass the disease on to others.

 

Like Mick says ... keep everything crossed ... but know the score.

[Guest]

Here’s a timeline for the AI outbreaks in Germany, Switzerland and Denmark.

 

Don’t know if they are typical but may give us some idea to go on : e.g. time from 1st find to the next one, and numbers of birds in each find.

 

Germany – started 8th Feb with 2 swans and 1 goshawk.

No further report filed until 17th March, when birds confirmed with AI found at several locations in following numbers: 5,1,3,1,1,1,1,1,1,1.

On 1st March – cat;

On 6th April – a turkey farm.

 

Switzerland – started 26th Feb with 2 goosanders.

Next: 2nd March, 1 duck, 1 coot.

 

Denmark – started 12th March with buzzard found on a beach.

Next 15th March (15), 17th (1), 18th (3) 19th (1) 20th (2) 22nd (1).

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

Copied from Scottish Executive website:

 

Bird flu update

10/04/2006

 

No new positive tests for H5N1 avian flu emerged over the weekend as scientists worked round the clock to ensure checks were done as quickly as possible.

 

The H5N1 strain was confirmed in a dead swan at Cellardyke Harbour in Fife on Wednesday April 5.

 

A number of dead birds have since then been reported to the authorities and collected for analysis. The helpline number is 08459 33 55 77.

 

A 3km Protection Zone is currently in force around the location, restricting the movement of poultry and poultry products.

 

A 10km Surveillance Zone has also been set up within which extra monitoring is taking place.

 

Under a decision by the European Commission, the Protection Zone will be in place for a minimum of 21 days and the Surveillance Zone for 30 days following confirmation of of a case of H5N1.

 

The decision on ending the zones is dependent on whether or not any more birds are found to have the virus.

 

The Executive has also set up a Wild Bird Risk Area on 2,500 sq km to the east of the A90 and M90, stretching from Stonehaven in the north to the Forth Road Bridge in the south. Within this area all poultry has to be housed and, if this is not possible, separated from contact with wild birds.

 

 

[big_al]

A   SWAN  FOUND  DEAD  IN  HOLYROOD  PARK   IS  AMONG   THE   LATEST  TO  BE   TESTED  FOR  BIRD   FLU    THE   BIRD   BELIEVED  TO  BE  A  YOUNG   SWAN     WAS   DISCOVERED   LYING  IN   THE  WATER    AT   ST   MARGARETS  LOCK  YESTERDAY    AFTERNOON   BY   TWO   MEN   ALLAN  BROWN   OF  THE  LOTHIAN  AND   FIFE  SWAN   STUDY  GROUP   SAID   AT   LEAST   ONE    SWAN         WAS    FOUND    DEAD    IN   THE   PARK   EVERY   WEEK    

[Guest]

WISH IT STAYED IN EUROPE  ROSE, COULD OF HAD ME BIRDS OUT.   :'( :'( :'(

[Guest]

A   SWAN  FOUND  DEAD  IN  HOLYROOD  PARK   IS  AMONG   THE   LATEST  TO  BE   TESTED  FOR  BIRD   FLU    THE   BIRD   BELIEVED  TO  BE  A  YOUNG   SWAN     WAS   DISCOVERED   LYING  IN   THE  WATER    AT   ST   MARGARETS  LOCK  YESTERDAY    AFTERNOON   BY   TWO   MEN   ALLAN  BROWN   OF  THE  LOTHIAN  AND   FIFE  SWAN   STUDY  GROUP   SAID   AT   LEAST   ONE    SWAN         WAS    FOUND    DEAD    IN   THE   PARK   EVERY   WEEK    

 

Read that in Edinburgh Evening Times tonight and couldn't help wondering at the study group statement? Doesn't sound as if the birds are too healthy and the study group don't seem too bothered with all these deaths? WHAT are they studying ... extinction?  ;D

[jimmy white]

i couldnt possibly see a swan which died on the continent, and was washed up in fife , still being in one peice, im quite sure it would have been eaten by many ,preditors on the way, ie , fish , seals or hawks ,or anything for that matter , but i couldnt see it dritfting over the north sea, and arriving here in one peice,,no way      there have been thousands of birds tested here ,,,for h5ni but up till now ,,,not one positive, apart from the,, mystery one.[ strange]

[Guest]

This Guardian article mirrors what was said on Scottish ITN 6pm News tonight. Far from clear-cut and enquiries are continuing:-  

 

Guardian Unlimited 4.45pm update

 

Bird flu swan 'migrated to UK'

 

James Sturcke, Tuesday April 11, 2006

 

The dead swan that tested positive for the virulent H5N1 form of bird flu migrated to Britain, Scotland's senior vet said today.

 

DNA testing identified the bird - whose decaying corpse was found on the coast in Cellardyke, Fife, on March 29 - as a whooper swan, a migratory species that spends the winter in Britain.

 

Charles Milne, the Scottish chief veterinary officer, said it was impossible to be sure whether the bird had caught the disease in another country or contracted it in the UK. The remarks left open the possibility that other birds in the area could be infected.

 

Earlier, the dead bird had been tentatively identified as a mute swan, a species that is native in Britain and only migrates in exceptional circumstances.

Scientists struggled to confirm its species because the carcass was badly decomposed and its head was missing, meaning beak markings could not be noted.

 

Mr Milne said many whooper swans had been tested over the past few months, and all had been negative. He said the birds originated from outside Britain but around 7,500 migrate to UK shores during the winter months.

"We are working on the assumption that the bird migrated to this country, but it's impossible to say precisely where it died," he added.

 

He said the implications of the DNA test results needed to be considered before it was considered whether any further restrictions should be brought in.

 

"There's some significance in the fact that whooper swans are long distance migrants," he added. "They do potentially move around more than mute swans. But we need to discuss these issues to get a full understanding of what we are dealing with."

 

A 3km protection zone and 10km surveillance zone have been set up around where the swan was discovered, and a 2,500km sq wild bird risk area has also been established along the coastline.

The Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs said it would normally expect whooper swans to be leaving Britain for their summer breeding grounds at this time of year.

 

"The Cellardyke swan is the first highly pathogenic H5N1 avian influenza case detected in a wild bird in the British Isles, and our current hypothesis is that the swan originated outside Great Britain," Defra said in a statement.

"We know already that movement of swans associated with cold weather and on migration has been a feature of recent developments in Europe."

 

No other cases of bird flu have been discovered in Britain from tests on 3,397 birds in recent months, with nthat figure including 428 swans tested between February 1 and April 1, Defra said.

 

Professor Hugh Pennington, a microbiologist from Aberdeen University, said it was positive news that the swan was migrant rather than native.

 

"This whooper swan probably came from Germany and may have died off the Scottish coast as it struggled across the sea," he said. "This raises the likelihood that it had no contact with any native birds and that this case of H5N1 on our shores was a one-off."

 

A spokesman for RSPB Scotland said: "It possibly became ill halfway across the sea, died and was washed up, so hopefully had zero interaction with native birds.

 

"In terms of the unequivocal announcement last week that this was a mute swan, what this underlines is the importance of getting the species right.

 

"We hope the authorities will learn from this mistake, as species is vital in nailing down where the virus is travelling to and from."

Samples of the H5N1 virus found on the swan closely matched those found in dead swans in the Ruegen Islands, off the German coast.

 

There are two main breeding populations of whooper swans, in Iceland and in Scandinavia and northern Russia. They winter in the UK and parts of continental Europe.

 

Earlier today, it was reported that scientists were looking into the possibility that the swan had died abroad and floated across the North Sea to Scotland.

 

Citing Whitehall sources, the BBC's Today programme reported it was believed the bird "was a non-resident mute swan" that died somewhere else and "floated in".

 

Prof Pennington said the H5N1 virus could survive in dead animals for at least a number of days, particularly in cold conditions, but doubted the bird could have drifted from the Baltic.

 

"For what it's worth, I do not think it was washed all the way from the islands in the Baltic," he said. "You only have to look at the map. However, it may have been infected elsewhere on the continent and washed across the North Sea."

 

Mute swans breeding in the UK are largely sedentary - few movements within Britain have exceeded 30 miles.

Only in very severe winters do birds migrate from or to mainland Europe, with the last record of such movement happening during an extensive period of cold weather in Britain in 1962 and 1963.

 

Meanwhile, it was also reported today that the government is considering imposing targets for the time it takes to test suspected cases of bird flu.

 

The move follows criticism that it took eight days for the Scottish outbreak to be confirmed.

 

A Defra spokesman said no targets were in place but that the department had been "working on developing specific aims and a common understanding of the hierarchy and prioritisation of the work".

 

 

 

 

 

[jimmy white]

still say something odd about it, the more i read about it the more i think that

[Guest shadow]

Just posted on the avian flu web site Britains testing for the virus could be suspect the virus samples were not stored correctly proir to being tested. The samples should have been frozen and not stored in a refrigerator (as they were) this allows the sample to dry out and the virus is lost, will they ever get anything right?

[Pompey Mick]

This would seem to be one of the strangest diseases known to mankind. It is said to be deadly but the numbers of birds found dead with this disease do not seem to be excessive as is the case with H5 avian flu. There just seem to be isolated cases here, there,and everywhere.It is jumping about from country to country, one here a couple there, if it is as deadly and dangerous as we are led to believe how come it hasn't wiped out entire colonies of birds as other diseases do, where is the reservoir for this disease? It would appear that given the kill rate of this disease, once contracted, it cannot be easily be passed from bird to bird, let alone other species. I think the fear factor has been grossly exaggerated for the financial benefit of certain pharmaceutical companies, as borne out by the previous post where doubt is being cast on the testing procedures, just to keep the pot boiling.

[Guest]

It isn't a voluntary code in AI Zones, it is a legal requirement to do as the Order states.

 

There are penalties for non-compliance, and these are taken from the Order in force in Scotland, April 2006:-

 

Powers of inspectors in case of default

 

19.-(1) Where a person fails to comply with a requirement imposed by or under this Order an inspector may take any steps that they consider necessary to ensure the requirement is met.

 

(2) In taking steps under paragraph (1) an inspector may seize and detain any bird moved, kept or otherwise dealt with in contravention of a restriction or requirement imposed by or under this Order.

 

(3) The person in default shall reimburse any reasonable expenses incurred by the Scottish Ministers or the local authority in taking such steps and any such debt is recoverable summarily.

 

Breach of the Order is an offence under section 73 of the Animal Health Act 1981, punishable in accordance with section 75 of that Act.

 

 

[Guest]

This would seem to be one of the strangest diseases known to mankind. It is said to be deadly but the numbers of birds found dead with this disease do not seem to be excessive as is the case with H5 avian flu. There just seem to be isolated cases here, there,and everywhere.It is jumping about from country to country, one here a couple there, if it is as deadly and dangerous as we are led to believe how come it hasn't wiped out entire colonies of birds as other diseases do, where is the reservoir for this disease? It would appear that given the kill rate of this disease, once contracted, it cannot be easily be passed from bird to bird, let alone other species. I think the fear factor has been grossly exaggerated for the financial benefit of certain pharmaceutical companies, as borne out by the previous post where doubt is being cast on the testing procedures, just to keep the pot boiling.

 

 

So close to the mark yet so far off at the same time, Mick.  

 

You are 100% correct about infection & kill rate in the wild. You are also 100% correct  about the financial interests.

 

Unfortunately, you are 100% wrong about the bird species that H5N1 is deadly for ... 100% KILL RATE ... and the main financial interest involved.

 

This is all about poultry and country's economies. Eye watering sums involved e.g.:

 

France.. £8 billion poultry sales every year.

 

UK.. £3 billion poultry sales every year.

 

H5N1 could and has wiped out poultry industries in several countries. No country can afford to lose billions of pounds of income. On a human scale, a poor farmer can't afford to lose his backyard flock when its the main source of food for his family either.

 

Then there's the human health issue. Who eats poultry? We do. And where have the few humans who have contracted H5N1 picked it up? From infected poultry.

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

Bit of a set-back for the poultry industry, a vaccine policy that doesn't work?

 

Russia : New bird-flu outbreak in southern Russia hits vaccinated fowl

10:42 | 13/ 04/ 2006

  

 

VOLGOGRAD, April 13 (RIA Novosti) - Quarantine regulations have been introduced at a village in southern Russia after mass death of birds already vaccinated against the disease, a local official said Thursday.

 

The official said 20 birds vaccinated against the lethal H5N1 strain of the disease April 4 had died at a small homestead in a Volgograd region village.

 

"The birds had tested positive for the H5N1 strain of bird flu," he said, adding that the remaining 25 birds at the homestead have been slaughtered.

 

In late March, bird flu hit another village in the region, where 85 birds kept in the yard of a house had died.

 

The Emergency Situations Ministry said this week that around 1.1 million birds had died of the disease in Russia while 0.3 million have been culled in measures to control the spread of the virus since February 3.

 

The H5N1 strain returned to southern Russia, a stopover for migrating birds, in February, following outbreaks last year

 

Before today's deaths, officials said a massive vaccination campaign had made it possible to prevent an epidemic, with around 20 million birds vaccinated in 62 Russia's regions since March 10.

 

No human cases of bird flu have been diagnosed in Russia.

 

 

[Pompey Mick]

How can birds vaccinated against bird flu be tested for it, when our authorities give one of the main reasons against vaccination is that it hides detection of the disease

[Guest]

You will be relieved to learn that a new risk assessment published today (undertaken after the correct identification of the Cellardyke swan as a Whooper) finds that further extensions of the wild bird Zone aren't required.

 

The document runs to 7 pages, but there's lots in it about the maybes, buts and ifs of where this swan was, was coming from, or going to. Rather than post and swamp, those interested in the uncertainty surrounding this find can follow the link below:-  

 

 

http://www.defra.gov.uk/animalh/diseases/monitoring/pdf/hpai-whooperswan-scotland130406.pdf

[BROOMPARK]

We  have a cure  8)

[jimmy white]

Just posted on the avian flu web site Britains testing for the virus could be suspect the virus samples were not stored correctly proir to being tested. The samples should have been frozen and not stored in a refrigerator (as they were) this allows the sample to dry out and the virus is lost, will they ever get anything right?

 

they got the type of bird wrong. they got the whereabouts wrong, they failed to pick the now whooper swan within 24 hours,and now theve got the tests wrong, yes i agree with you shadow,WHEN WILL THEY GET ANYTHING RIGHT, to me this sounded odd from the start, and now it seems odder

[Guest]

Police and environment officials have collected the bodies of 16 birds found dead on two beaches in north Wales.

Six dead guillemots have been found at Harlech beach in Gwynedd and another 10 at nearby Criccieth beach.

 

The birds will be tested for bird flu as a precautionary measure. Guillemots are not on the list of potential importers of the virus.

 

Wales Chief Veterinary Officer said the H5N1 avian flu virus was less likely to be found in guillemots.

 

A spokesman for the chief veterinary officer said: "This is a routine enhanced surveillance where more than three dead wild or garden birds have been found together in the same place.

 

"H5N1 avian flu is less likely in guillemots than swans, geese or ducks and no more likely to have a positive result than thousands of other birds collected for testing".

 

  As you can appreciate we have just come out of a cold winter and it is a time when you might already find dead birds

 

Defra spokesman

 

A swan found dead at Cellardyke in Scotland on 29 March tested positive for the HN51 virus but no other cases have been confirmed in the UK since.

 

The spokesman said: "Scotland remains the priority area and the rest of the GB results should be available within a week."

 

Defra said it was not unusual to find dead birds in the UK, adding a number of factors may be responsible for causing the deaths, including infectious diseases, adverse weather conditions, poisoning and starvation.

 

A spokesman said they would not comment on individual cases, but said Defra would investigate reports made to their hotline and take samples.

 

Hotline

 

"As you can appreciate we have just come out of a cold winter and it is a time when you might already find dead birds," he said.

 

Since the hotline was set up six months ago there had been thousands of calls.

 

The Defra spokesman said they were asking people with poultry to "reacquaint themselves" with avian flu guidelines and said they were particularly interested in finds of single dead swans or high numbers of ducks and geese.

 

Tests are still being carried out on a swan found dead on Anglesey last week.

 

The Defra Helpline can be contacted on 08459 33 55 77.

 

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_west/4910786.stm

[Guest shadow]

Two new cases of bird flu reported in eastern france (swans) This could put the idea of lifting restrictions on pigeon racing into france out of the window for some time to come