YOUNG BIRD SICKNESS

[r yeaman]

re young bird sickness i have found that when you notice birds vomiting over night to treat affected birds by giving a prazole tablet and clear all food from crop and do not feed affected bird(s) for 24 hours. Then feed a small quantity of light mix till birds droppings return to normal usually 2_3 days. when birds contract y b sickness you must inspect loft be fore daylight to look for vomitted feed or birds will eat same and you will be unaware you have a problem till your birds have crop poisoning  I also agree that it does not matter if birds eat vommited  feed and drink same water as it helps to get the problem to run its normal cause through your birds till they build up immunity.I only isolate the birds that are spewing .when you know you have yb sickness look for birds that stop feeding before the rest this will enable you to to treat as above and will usually clear within 2 days .

[Guest]

Oh Dear!

Milton, tablets, bleach, disinifectant.

If you think these are that good, try some in your tea. Go on, get it down yer throat, you know it'll do you good - I don't think.

If by YBS you mean the 'symptoms' of: holding the corn until it is smells like alcohol (ferments); little or no matter in the droppings; then the bird throws up, others gobble up the grain. Then they hold their corn.....

Then all authors generally agree: This is brought on by stress. There is at least one virus involved. Maybe e.coli and / or salmonella too (bacteria).

I know that there is definitely yeast involved from the smell of alcohol from the bird's breath and the regurgitated grain, which has obviously fermented in the crop.

So to CURE 'YBS' find out what you are doing to stress your birds, and remove the stress from their environment - period. Otherwise your birds will fall ill every year.

To cure the SYMPTOMS and stop it becoming a whole flock problem: Always be on the watch for the bird that appears off-colour, not hungry but always full. Isolate it for at least three days. Garlic in the water (including the other birds). Don't feed till the crop empties (it'll most probably throw-up). Then feed smalls / seed until droppings again appear, or start to form-up, when you can start adding a little grain (maize). By the third day, the bird should be eating, drinking, perky and its droppings normal.

If you are unlucky enough (or too lazy to isolate suspect birds) to have the whole team down, then after recovery, a probiotic like natural yoghurt for three days should help the birds' digestive system recover.

 

[Guest speckled]

:-/ Well young bird sickness,what is the point in isolation,the infected bird,as its already been to the drinker,so all the birds use the same drinker, so all the bird now might be infected.Not only that, thay all live in the same loft,& as you say,the minute  the bird starts to hunch up throw up corn,watery slimmey dropping,we all start to isolate them. :-/ why,?. Well this means that you could be, takeing 1 or 2 birds from the loft every day,& isolating it.So in my opion, thay all should be treated, the same, as some birds will have the virus & some wont. So what ever way you  deal with this sickness. treat them all. As it is a airborn virus,If im right.Speckled.

[johnny11]

Bruno

 

Remove the stress???

 

Most say this happens after or during racing... Are you saying do not race young birds.... do not mix with other young birds?

 

johnny

[Guest]

Speckled - if the virus (if there is one) was airborne, then isolating the bird wouldn't make a blind bit of difference - or do your birds breathe different air in different parts of your loft? The fact that isolation does make a difference shows that it isn't airborne. If you want to leave a sick bird at large in your loft - fine. But I hope you don't bring any of your birds down for race marking while you are letting this happen.

Johnny11 - you are correct that this appears to happen every year, to young birds, within or just after the racing season. So it appears that something is being done in that period that some young birds are just unable to cope with. What that something is, I don't know because everyone has different methods and a different set-up. I am not saying don't race young birds. What I am saying is find out what you are doing to cause the birds stress - and remove it. If you don't then it becomes a self-defeating cycle - you keep young birds to race them, but can't because stress makes them ill. Another way of looking at it is we keep birds for 9 months to race them for 3 months. It is downright stupid to cause something yourself which stops your birds racing during that 3 months. On the human plane, if it was happening to you in your own workplace, you would be looking to do the same. And if I was employing you, I'd be damned interested to know what was going on to keep you from working 'to full capacity'.

[Guest speckled]

Right bruon,ya right if it is a airborn virus,it wont make a blind bit of diffirence "Isolating" the infected bird,but if its caused but stress, still why "isolate! it,surely ya stressing it out by doing that. More stress unwell pigeons,as for sending the birds,i send them 100% race fit,& healthy,as the results i have acheived,would not of been possible, if me birds where unwell. I have not experianced "young Bird" sickness ,in the last 5yrs.But like us all, yes i did experiance it once,No its not nice,but never used any antibiotics,never isolated any birds from there loft.insteed i left them alltogher,put rehydration salt in the water, for 5 days,feed the birds only on "Pellets" as like other corn the birds will hold in the crop,during the night ,the bird will at some stage bring this corn up,witch them goes on the loft floor,& before ya no , a hungry youngster has eaten the evidence. But when you use "Pellets" the pigeons are still getting all the goodness for this tiny powefull grain,& when it comes into contact with water,its makes it easy to digest,as the pellets turn to "MUSH".so if the pigeon did at night,bring back up the pellets,that was give that evening,other hungry youngsters,Wont eat it, so at least on my opion, thay are getting all the goodness thay need.+ with the rehydration salts, you are putting the salts back into the body,what it has lost,during this sickness.with this treatment,my pigeons are not put under any stress,there in there own enviroment &,fully air conditioned loft,Thay stay in the loft, without exersice,  untill i feel that all the birds are,free from infection.which is usally after 5 days.When & only when thay start taking to the air flying again will i put them on depurtive,&  if thay repond to this without bring it back up, i wil put them on there normal corn.After about the 7th day,thay are back to flying 1hour plus.Well it worked for me,& i am still racing some of thoses bird,& there performaces are good. Speckled.

[Guest]

How have you air conditioned your YB loft, need to do something to mine (and old bird loft) as the air quality is up and down and I can see how it effects them negatively???

[jimmy white]

we are saying that yb sickness is caused by stress and obviously they go through a certain amount of stress, but yb racing has been going on a long time now ,since 1900   its only in recent years that it has reared its ugly head, , pigeon fanciers years ago  had fewer ybs , not that im advocating fewer ybs to breed ,but if youve enough room, enough time , and maybe partnerships, and can afford it good luck.we all say we kept fewer bird years ago, which is correct ,but, what most fanciers dont say is ,we also had small lofts. idont think, of so much as the amount, its the way we treat the amount,.if pigeons are kept tame and confident in their owner, this at least lessons the stress,i have seen fanciers, grabbing ybs in mid air day after day, throwing them in the basket , immediately dumping them in a car boot ,racing to the toss point throwing them up right away, these ybs actualy become terrified of their owners and are living on there nerves, which increases the stress by far,     now as far as we know it is an airborne desease and a digestive one, now we cannot compair their digestive system to ours, its completely differant, a bird has a crop and a gizard, so i see know harm using milton in their water to ,which would bathe their crops[ it does the babies no harm,to clean their bottles]and as its airborne, all the birds in the loft would get this ,treatment i notice a point with speckled to feed pellets, i see her point completely, the pellets turn to mush ,so other birds cant pick it up, i think this is a good idea. as most of birds that are sick will bring up grain and other birds will eat it right away, i reaiize all this is a very difficult subject , and a very serious one ,but keeping the stress level to the lowest possible circumstance  definately is a help.

[Guest]

When giving milton, do you put it in the water that they drink or just use it to clean the bowls with b4 putting the water in. I have some sterlising fluid, can this be used (I think its the same as milton). How often do you use milton in the water (if you do)???

[jimmy white]

if i thought my birds were healthy enough i wouldnt bother with it, but i dont suppose a half teaspoonfull  in the water wouldnt do any harm once a week,and yes it is good for sterilizing the water dishes out.  i was more concerned about   bathing the crop out during crop infections to stop any bacteria going further, but if birds are healthy they will not need it as they would build up their own immunity in normal circumstances  jimmy.p.s thats a five pint drinker im talking about,, best of luck

[Guest]

Some interesting points, Jimmy White. Firstly, young birds had fewer races. If I remember right, in 1960's Lanarkshire did Annan to Leyland = 5 from 50/150 miles. There was the YB National at 250 (I think), but the thinking then was that was too far for a yb. Training started about 2/3 weeks before racing; they went every day weather permitting, up to Thursday of the race week. After that, training stopped, and yb's raced the full programme.

North West this year have 7 (8 last year) yb races 57/184 . YB National 257.  SCC 250. Most training starts before racing, and continues 3 days-a-week during it. So I believe the workrate expected of yb's now is bloody heavy. The actions you describe of yb's being thrown into a basket won't help; if the rations are short too; and the racing and training done on 'hard days'  that = stress, and plenty of it.

On Milton: I note what you say about its use in babycare. But don't be misled. It is a steriliser - external use only - for cleansing bottles, equipment and dummies. The instructions are to rinse these thoroughly in clean cold water after sterilising  - i.e. Milton neat or otherwise is bloody dangerous to the bairn. Good enough advice from the Health Visitor for bairns, then it must be equally good advice for doos too - clean the drinkers with it, not in the drinkers with it!! And don't be fooled by the it's just Chlorine brigade - SEPA are reducing its use in water purification in Scotland because of its effect on the environment.

As for the disinfectants, bleaches etc - the same goes. The bottles don't carry a big X on the side 'Irritant - external use only ' for nothing.

[Guest speckled]

Hello Bruno, its speckled,Well,i will say.jusy cause it carrys an "X" on the side of the bottle,does not mean it harmfull, when dilutied.,to a weeker solution.As i had an infection in my tooth, the dentist, had to drill a hole  in the back of the tooth,& to keep out infection  she used a suringe which was ,neat bleach.like yourself,i ask her if it was dangerous,she said no,only if  drunk by the bottle full.so we could still argue over this one,but i dont think it will do the birds any harm if taken orally.

,i should see no probs. I also clean my drinkers out the bleach,usally on a monday as thay have "Tea" on a sunday & it tends to stain the drinker,.but miton will  never , be taken neat,as most people have ditlutied it by adding at least 4 pint of water to there drinkers.Cheers A Steralized Speckled

[Guest Doostalker]

Bruno I have to agree with what you are saying about the chlorine based bleaches. Any introduction of a chlorine based substance into the digestive system of any creature will have the result of killing off all of the bacteria in the gut. That is, all the good bacteria as well as the harmful. They should NEVER be given to any creature at any strength of dilution. It is important that they should be used for cleaning drinkers etc, but these should be rinsed in clean water to remove as much residue of the bleach as possible before being used for the birds again. I never give my birds water to drink straight from the tap, but leave it overnight so that the residual chlorine levels have reduced and the birds are not affected by it. I never clean the young birds drinkers from the moment they enter the yb loft till after the racing season. They get fresh water evry day, but in some years there is a good growth of algae on the inside of the drinker, and I have had no problems with major illness. I keep the pH in their crop acidic, as it must be, by giving them Elderberry juice in the water once a week, (get it at Ikea for £2 a 500ml bottle, but don't tell the wife as she will want to go there and buy furniture!!) You can also use cider vinegar to the same effect.

I have had yb's "hold" their feeding in their crop for 24 hours, but if they are fed only once per day, this is entirely normal. Feed them twice a day and they do not hold it. I don't know if what other guys are experiencing is diffent from my own experience though. I have also seen yb's vomit up their food. I generally ignore it as I feel the majority of it is down to them over indulging or eating something outside that they shouldn't have....just like weans. I have also seen them throw up when put into the race pannier on marking night, but I think this is down to stress caused by the experience, and it seems to stop as the season goes on. Jimmy W hits the nail on the head with his comments about stress. Ideally I would want a system where my yb's calmly walk into the basket themselves, instead of me catching them up once a week, and causing them hassle.

I have read this thread and have been very interested in it. Like most comments on health however, the list of fanciers solutions is endless. Sadly, at best some of the homespun "cures" will make no difference, at worst they will have a detrimental effect on the birds.

The best answer, I feel is to read up on the subject by a specialist author. There are at least two vets who are doomen and who have written excellent books, in easily readable form, on how we should deal with the health of or birds. They may cost a few pounds, but what is that in comparison to the loss of your young birds, and the frustration of trying out every "remedy" other fanciers tell you.

Every week at marking I am stunned by the number of guys who say "I have a bird that is..." and he is answered by at least a dozen different replies of "genuine cures" that all the others swear by. I sometimes wonder if they have tried them out thermselves as I am sure some of them would likely have their birds in a worse condition than when the "treatment" started.

[Guest]

Well done Doostalker. On sterilising the drinkers, isn't there a safer way? Read in the BHW of one chap who pops his in the microwave oven for a couple of minutes. Any hard facts on this one? Would that do the trick or not?

[mealybar]

The bleach in the water was promoted by the BHW vet David Palmer, in a lot of his articles he mentioned it. What do you feel about Vircon S in the water?

[Guest]

Mealybar, I use Virkon S to spray my cleaning stuff, feeders, gallipots, baskets and the drain outside my loft. I also use it for my club's baskets, drinkers and the pail the drinkers are emptied into. For my gloves after I've cleaned those baskets. I believe that it keeps me and my birds safe when used as directed - applications for which DEFRA has approved this disinfectant are all external use, i.e. in animal accommodation - all surfaces and equipment in farms, hatcheries, kennels, catteries, stables, cages and other animal accommodation.  

'The big red X' is actually a big black X on a red background with the word IRRITANT in black. Sorry for the misinformation on that one - familiarity and all that. The warning label reads: Virkon S Powder. Irritating to the skin. Risk of serious damage to the eyes. Keep away from children. Do not breathe the dust. Avoid contact with the skin and eyes. In case of contact with the eyes, rinse immediately with plenty of water. Seek medical advice. In answer to your question, no I wouldn't use it in the drinker and for those who do the 'seek medical advice' would best be done by a psychiatrist!!!  

Speckled, I've seen the same type of thing on bottles at the dentist too. Anything hazardous to (human) health must by law carry a warning on the product label. Dentist obviously knows what he/she is about and hopefully your dental problem's cleared up OK.

[Guest Doostalker]

On sterilising the drinkers, isn't there a safer way? Read in the BHW of one chap who pops his in the microwave oven for a couple of minutes. Any hard facts on this one? Would that do the trick or not?

 

Bruno, I would use another method of sterilisation if there was one I could trust to be as effective as bleach, but less aggressive on the birds' digestive system. I use the bleach method as it is what I used during my years sampling. You can use direct flame if the drinker is metal, but the plastic has a tendancy to melt!lol

The idea of microwaving the drinkers may be practicable but certain plastics can be adversely affected by microwaving. That is why the shops sell containers which are "microwavable." As I understand it, if they are not, some chemicals in their make up can be leached by the heat, into the food.

Whenever I use bleach though, I wash the container thoroughly in cold water to remove any bleach residue. You can give the container a swirl with vinegar (cider vinegar would do) which also has the effect of neutralising the bleach residue, and has no real effect on the birds.

 

 

[Guest]

Doostalker, I went away and came back to your posting just to make sure I was reading it correctly. I think you may have misunderstood my concerns. I don't have any problem with what you are doing to keep your drinkers safe. As a daft teenager I used to use Vim and boiling water to clean my metal (enamel coated) drinkers, just about taking off the top layer of the skin on my hands in the process. I then emptied the Daar reservoir rinsing them in cold water - just about freezing myself to death in winter.

My concern is with those people whom I believe are at best misinformed and at worst (fill in what you like) who actually put bleach, disinfectant, milton and other harmful agents in the birds' water and expect them to drink it in the belief that it will kill 'bad bugs' both in the drinker and inside the bird. They are sadly deluded.

You are perfectly correct in what you are doing by using your bleach to clean your drinkers and rinsing them thoroughly before filling them with water and putting the drinkers in front of your birds. That is what these substances are for - external use - i.e. external and away from the living creature.

[mealybar]

In answer to your question, no I wouldn't use it in the drinker and for those who do the 'seek medical advice' would best be done by a psychiatrist!!!

 

Very good bruno, however I can assure you and everyone else that at the amounts posted that it is completely safe, and indeed advantageous in combatting many ailments in pigeons. Each to their own.

[Guest Doostalker]

Mealybar, sorry to disagree with you on this one, but bleach is non specific in its destruction of bacteria. By that I mean it will kill all bacteria in their gut, and if you dilute it to such an extent as to do no harm to the bird's gut, then you have to question what purpose it is serving. At minute dilution rates it would be too weak to have any effect beneficially or detrimentally.

 

Arguably, in part you are right, if someone wants to dilute it to the stage where it has no effect, then whilst it is doing no harm to the bird there may be benefit from it being a panacea to the fancier. But that takes us in to a whole world of use of things for peace of mind as opposed to delivered benefits.

[Guest]

Mealybar, I don't think it will be 'each to his own' for very much longer.

A new Animal Welfare Act is expected to become law in Scotland this year bringing us into line with the rest of the UK - the one already applicable to you and your pigeons. It imposes a Duty of Care on you which gives animal welfare organisations like the rspca rights of access to your birds and their accommodation and the right to prosecute you if they see or find anything likely to be construed as mistreating an animal.

Sticking to Virkon and its use. I have already posted the conditions of use for which DEFRA have licensed this product for sale throughout the UK. The warnings of its effects on humans give a very clear indication as to the harm it is capable of doing to human tissues - what then is it capable of doing to a pigeon's delicate nasal, throat, and digestive tract linings?

I would be very interested to see the paperwork on the research,  particularly on the bird tissue samples, which proves that Virkon is safe to use in this way, together with the research that proves combat of the many ailments (which ailments?) you infer.

I would also like to be in the viewing gallery of the court during a prosecution of a case like this especially when counsel for the company takes the stand and refers to the conditions of use on the package. The company aint going to lose its production & marketing license trying to defend a clear misuse of its product.  

[jimmy white]

just out of curiosity   ihave put a half teaspoonfull o milton in a pint of water and drank it ,  and i can tell you its done me a lot better than what i used to drink,at least i never had a hangover ha ha,try it?

[jimmy white]

going back to doostalker, i agree that there is good bacteria and bad bacteria, but the point i was trying to make was, when the crop is so infected, the bad bacteria are [winning] so to speak, and killing off the good bacteria, thats why the bird is so ill in the first place, the good bacteria becomes non existant , therefor the bird dies.  so by killing all the bacteria,the bird will then naturaly build up its own immunity, which are good bacteria, all the topics on this subject are very interesting indeed and worth sifting through ,    the one thing we all agree  on is the stress factor, keep the posts going and we can all learn by it,one other point was that years ago  the yb nat was cheltenham which was about 300 miles im not nit picking at you bruno, the opposite, im finding your posts very interesting, good luck to all  jimmy

[Guest speckled]

So thats why ya carry a big  black "X" Bruno, for "Iratation".ye well & trully cleared up

[Guest]

See that bottle of Milton, Jimmy White (Or as they say in the west, see you Jimmy sees that bottle) would you mind having a look at the label (like I did with Virkon S) and posting what it says on this forum? Don't race as White & McKay by any chance?

The evidence is that YBS is a complex condition involving a number of agents: bacteria, virus, yeast,  etc working together in an unknown way on an immune system lowered by stress.

I've read somewhere that the digestive system collapses -now whether that means the gut as a tube collapses flat as a ruler, or digestion stops I'm not sure. If it collapses that is serious sh*t according to the various animal rescue etc programmes I've seen on TV. Either way, I think we all agree the bird is severely compromised and could be near death.

My point is: why compromise the bird further by doing something which may give Jimmy's 'losing' immune system an additional front to fight (tissue damage) AND remove all of its army - the friendly bacteria too? Please note that those damaged tissues - e.g. the throat, nose, lungs/air sacs, and gut linings - are part of the bird's immune system too. We surely want to keep and multiply all the organisms needed in the bird's natural defence system and at the same time give the other little scumbags what are in there a right good tanking.

My thoughts are already on next year's young birds. Wonder if I'll have the courage to convert to 'the old way' - breed around 20 rather than 30, train well before racing, then race only, every week until the moult stops them; and see how many I'm left with (15?) and what shape they're in?