cause of death??

[DJ]

i had a yb reported about 30 miles away which i collected  only to find that she was very underweight and wouldnt stand on her own,also she was refusing any corn/water   i decided to hand feed her a small amount of seeds,and bread as i thought this would be easier for her to digest    i also gave her water via a syringe mixed with a multi-vit plus brewers yeast and left her in a basket overnight to rest    the next morning i noticed that she was now standing on her own but still refusing to eat so i hand fed and watered her again and put her back into her basket to rest    yesterday i noticed that she was now eating corn and drinking on her own and assumed that she was recovering only to find her dead in her basket early this morning    i noticed that her crop was empty so she had digested the corn ok but her droppings had turned dark green :-/  can anybody give a reason as to why she suddenly died ??      debbie

[Mixxy]

sounds like where she so flown out her internal organs had been damaged beyond repair.either that or she had contacted a disease somewhere and had gone too far

[Guest IB]

I had a similar experience 2 years ago, collected a youngster 'lost off top' that had been living wild in Fife for weeks. Member of the public had phoned to tell me the bird was in her garden.

 

Bird was put in a spare box, it was well down, and although appeared to eat its first meal of ordinary pigeon mix OK, it stopped eating after that, and droppings were water - which eventually attracted flies to the box, not a good sign? Gave it a few days with no change and decided that the bird was too far gone, and put it out of its misery.

 

Club mate did say that bird would probably be unable to digest pigeon mix and should have been fed seed. So last year when another youngster which had been duffed-up by crows, and saved by a member of member of public, was handed back to me, it too went into a box and was fed a small seeds mixture. Graded that up eventually to pigeon mix, but it would bring this back up. Went back to seed, gradually graded up - same happened. Last meal was of seed. When I came in next morning it had brought that up and had died during the night.  

[OLDYELLOW]

i agree with mixxy.Once bird has used it resorces up i.e body fat the body starts going into failure, and stop producing white blood cells and immune system colapes, bird dies from starvation and a secondary illness, its far more important to get the birds salt and mineral levels up 1st and feed lightly and get some vitamins into it, fat seeds would be my 1st choice

[DJ]

thanks mixxy and IB for the replies    i did wonder about the pigeons organs mixxy as she was so underweight and also a fancier nearby seemed to think she had a yellow tinge to her eye ceres so could have been the liver that failed?   i rescued a wood pigeon last week that was being attacked by crows only to find that it had an open crop wound that was totally rancid and the smell was unbearable so unfortunatly all we could do was end its suffering ( it sounds like you got to your pigeon just in time IB)  crows certainly know how to seek out injured/sick animals but its the survival of the fittest i suppose even though its hard to stomach sometimes    also thanks to oldyellow for his advice re mineral and salt levels  its all advice that will no doubt come in handy in the future    what would be the best supplement to give a flown out pigeon to top up its mineral and salt levels ?   :-/ debbie

[Roland]

Seems to me FOR PARATYPHOID

Some of the treatments arehelpful ... well helpful in any event.

Albon(Agribon) Aureomycin Soluble

Aureomycin Concentrate

Aureomycin Tablets, 25 mgm

Terramycin Soluble Sulfamethazine

Vetisulid Sulquin 7-50

Acid Loft Dressing

Sal-Bac Paratyphoid Vaccine, 50 or 100 dose Liquimycin LA

200 Feed Mate 68

Germex Nolvasan

Sani-Coop

[Mixxy]

Seems to me FOR PARATYPHOID

Some of the treatments arehelpful ... well helpful in any event.

Albon(Agribon) Aureomycin Soluble

Aureomycin Concentrate

Aureomycin Tablets, 25 mgm

Terramycin Soluble Sulfamethazine

Vetisulid Sulquin 7-50

Acid Loft Dressing

Sal-Bac Paratyphoid Vaccine, 50 or 100 dose Liquimycin LA

200 Feed Mate 68

Germex Nolvasan

Sani-Coop

 

go up this route DJ and they will all be dropping dead.how can you suggest stuff like this.you a vet?pretty obvious to any half decent fancier that it is not para tp.

 

 

[OLDYELLOW]

A few people use epsom salts in there water on return there are various salts than can be used you can either buy or make your own electrolytes these will help your birds recover from there race / stress however the branded electrolytes contain essential minerals the later i use on return i don't allow them acess to a full fountain till there salt level is returned or they just flood themselves with water trying to rehydrate without replensing there salts and take longer to recover

[Roland]

Well when it happen to me... that is what it was !!!

[OLDYELLOW]

paratyphoid???????? i also agree with mixxy only a vet can say, treating blind for illnesses with only end up in your flock becoming prone to disease destroy there immune systems and eventualy ending up with birds that will fail. As for suppliments i believe brewers yeast is probably one thing everyone should have in there cupboards it contains alot of vitamins and minerals great for building a robust immune system

[DJ]

hi thanks for all the replies/ advice    how would you know when a dehydrated pigeons salt level is back to an acceptable level so that you can then give it free access to the water drinkers?  sorry for all the questions but knowledge is power as they say        debbie

[OLDYELLOW]

i put a tablespoon of electrolytes in a small drinker ( mineral fountain ) and top this with water no more than the depth of my index finger ( from fingertip to 1st crease ) this prevents them guzzling down the water as the water doent cover there beaks. I fly widowhood so they go to there boxes; after a few hours this is replaced by there proper water fountain with the rest of the solution added, as for how do you know there rehydrated you will see the difference in them

[Guest IB]

I think you need to be careful to spell out what you are talking about here.  

 

There is a world of difference between a dehydrated pigeon arriving home from a race, and one that has perhaps been out for days, or weeks.

 

It has been proved that what the bird needs when it gets home from a race is fresh water, as much as it wants. A dehydrated pigeon is fully re-hydrated within 30 minutes if given access to water.

 

In flight, a pigeon doesn't lose salt, it loses water. So the last thing you should be giving is electrolytes. And to give any dehydrated pigeon epsom salts is pure madness, the bird uses up what little water it has to flush out all that extra salt from the gut - you are in fact dehydrating further an already dehydrated pigeon.

 

 

 

 

[Mixxy]

debbie think of them like kids when they get dehydrated what you give them?dioralyte!(sp)birds can survive for days with no food but not water so soon as this goes they start to go down.always (as said) hydrate the bird first 24 hours then light feed.dont know about epsom salts never heard used as a rehydrate but yet again never used it either so cant say.

[OLDYELLOW]

giving your birds too much water on return is the worse thing you can do liver damage and kidney damage but hey what do i know i've won many races and took all of the channel adverages for 2 years on the trot a few years ago using my methods my birds have won from 86 miles to 512 miles

[ChrisMaidment08]

i personaly give ten mle salt water 10 mle suger  plus 25mle  comlan down throat leave for 24 houres then feed  water as normal

[Guest IB]

giving your birds too much water on return is the worse thing you can do liver damage and kidney damage but hey what do i know i've won many races and took all of the channel adverages for 2 years on the trot a few years ago using my methods my birds have won from 86 miles to 512 miles

 

I do not dispute you appear to know how to race pigeons, but this thread isn't about racing its about things that can go wrong with the bird, why, and what to do about it. With respect, you don't appear to know very much about that, and perhaps time for a second opinion from someone who does, and races pigeons well too:-

 

Effect of Heat and Humidity during a Race...

Author: Dr Colin Walker  Date: 30/6/05

 

EXTRACT

 

Pigeons do not have sweat glands and so cannot lose body heat through sweating. In birds, body heat is lost by evaporative cooling from the air sacs. When birds become hot, they start to pant. This increases air flow over the air sacs, in the process increasing evaporative loss, leading to cooling. Lost moisture is replaced by drinking. In this way, a normal body temperature and normal level of hydration are maintained.

 

What we do know is that at 25(Celsius), if deprived of water, pigeons become 5% dehydrated in only 24 hours. To put this in perspective, birds that are 5% dehydrated become quiet and fluffed up and will readily drink if water is provided. When 10% dehydrated, these symptoms become more exaggerated. When 15% dehydrated, there has been such a reduction in the circulating blood volume that various organs are inadequately perfused with blood to function normally and there is interference with the level of consciousness. Over 15% dehydrated, deaths start to occur.

 

We also know that at 25(Celsius) no dehydration will occur if birds are provided with water.

 

On races conducted on days over 25(Celsius), it can be assumed that unless birds drink along the way, they will arrive at their lofts suffering a degree of dehydration. Upon return, in health, a bird will drink readily, in the process replacing lost fluid reserves and a normal hydration status quickly re-establishes.

 

Again, it is worth repeating that this is a healthy pigeon Dr Walker is talking about, not a sick one, and its just water that that bird needs. DJ's is a sick pigeon and requires different treatment, and rehydration salts (balanced salt & sugar mixture) might be part of that.

 

[Mixxy]

giving your birds too much water on return is the worse thing you can do liver damage and kidney damage but hey what do i know i've won many races and took all of the channel adverages for 2 years on the trot a few years ago using my methods my birds have won from 86 miles to 512 miles

 

old yellow not disputing your winning record but not sure about giving the birds too much water giving internal damage, how?whats the fist thing the hospital does when you been ill a while and have to go in,but we cannot give our birds a drip.i have also won every race point from 52 to 623 miles at least once.does not mean i am always right though.

[Guest IB]

DJ you mentioned the bird was badly underweight? The Dutch research that Dr Walker quoted in my previous post, mentioned a bodyweight loss threshold (19%?) which automatically leads to death. Here's a short extract from the work on that:-

 

Data on heat production and body weight loss showed that when temperatures fluctuated 15/22C the pigeon can cope; but at 35/42C, the pigeon was put at risk, and birds died in the experiments. The temperatures chosen simulated colder April races and warmer July races. Activity levels (aggression) maxima occurred after 5 hours and 3 hours after confinement. Bodyweight loss for the higher temps were 11.8% to 15%, and 17.1% for the dead bird.

 

It reminded me very much of my own youngster 2 years ago, the bird had lost a lot of its bodyweight, so maybe already beyond help?

[Roland]

Seems that Salmonella and paratyphoid are the biggest, and untreated for, blight in our sport.

I believe that £50 to Libby Harrison for an autopsy is the sensible route to take. Believe that one would be surprised ... I'll chuck in a Tenner (£10) if cash is tight. Would be worth seeing what the actuality is.

Gordon Chambers doesn't believe in electrolytes for instance and has valid points!

Likewise one only has to look at reality of yogurt to see that there is another myth that has grown with momentum over the years - indeed many swear by it!

I often warn about too much protein and Toxin poisoning - a it's real devastating effects, yet many believe that any and all waste will just pass through the system is over use... Indeed I feel that misuse, and mis analyzing the symptoms are another reason of 'Off Colour, or under performing of pigeons

 

http://www.textbookofbacteriology.net/proteintoxins.html is an interesting read I believe.

[Roland]

Also for a good book in the cupboard http://www.pigeoncote.com/vet/formulary/formulary.html#medications is of use.

Again, and of course a Vet, common sense, and a practical, reasoning approach is needed.

Salmonella and Paratyphoid for instance are often only noticed, and brought to the fore when the birds is ailing, or in a weakened state for any reason. Many carry, and fly well in easy races, and win in the show pen ... Again if a Vet isn't looking for them they can be - apparently missed, and, it appears can't tell from a dropping sample. May be different now as I haven't sent for three years.

Had a lot of lofts with it this way over the last 5 years though. ALL were surprised!

One good fancier, whos brothers still fly, has packed up again after being clobbered the second time.

  Bob Flemmings use to nigh always open crops when a bird died for any reason whatsoever...

And I feel likewise, any time a bird dies, every so often a autopsy should be taken an advantage of. JMO.

[OLDYELLOW]

a pigeons body has a natural balance i.e minerals that it takes on board to effectivley rehydrate without flooding its internal organs must take on salt / sugars. Many years ago i had a hen flew her heart out took 3rd club and flooded herself with drinking too much water to rehydrate, this was on a very warm day water on its own does not rehydrate yr pigeons and will increase recovery rate or end up in the damage of yr birds, you may not agree with my methods however, try it see if theres any difference in the recovery rate in your birds, gettting your birds right and recovered quickly will increase in your birds performances. You dont give a dehyrated person just water they get saline to prevent further organ damage

[DJ]

hi all  thanks again for all the replies  i noticed in dr colin walkers extract (posted by IB) that he states that when a pigeon becomes more than 15% dehydrated that it interferes with the pigeons level of conciousness and when i collected my pigeon i noticed that she was having trouble keeping her eyes open so maybe this was the start of it? as i said earlier my pigeon seemed to start to recover when i was feeding her water via a syringe but looking back now she did take a long drink on her own the day before she died? was this drink too much for her damaged liver/kidneys to cope with?  i think maybe i just got to her too late to turn her around?   debbie