close breeding

[Guest karl adams]

can farther be paired to daughter  or is that to close

[demolition man]

i have used this method  father daughter. mother son, brother sister from time to time when i want to hold the line in my family then i out cross the children

 

[bewted]

FATHER TO DAUGHTER IS NOT AS NEAR AS YOU THINK IT IS AND IS PERFECTLY GOOD PARING TOO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Guest karl adams]

ok thanks i will try it

as i have a pair of  F.V.W  in my stock loft that were given to me but they are farther and daughter but have loads of winners in their peds so will try them together then cross them next time

[bewted]

no need to cross them next time if you want a family of FVW !

[Roland]

Wouldn't get into 'Incest breeding' till you understand the goals you are trying to achieve. Also the birds needed to do this have to be the real McCoy and again a realistic and good reason for doing as suh.

Remember that 755 or more don't even understand why they do it and most of them have no idea why, let alone the effects and degenerate consequences that can quickly take place.

Further, the Ofspring of the inest breeding are purely for stock in the main essence and not for racing. remember it is the 'Out Cross' that is then all important. Inded if you look at the beginning of nigh every Family / Strain it was the introduction that made it.

personally untill you havea few 'winners' and a good loft of real Good birds, why would one want to inbreed, let alone incest breed them.

Remember that one can put into something that is not there, producing is normally a 'Lesser' and inferior result - though in retrospect a pigeon wasn't designed for what we intend, so so much  can be gotten away with.

Also rremember that 'Line Breeding' is vastly different that Incest breeding - which produces great results.

[Wiley]

the only time ive ever done this successfully is if the Father was a top winning bird, and the daughter was a top winning bird,

[Ulsterlofts]

Ron-Ville-Millennium Superstar , Bred and raced by Ron Williamson is Father & Daughter mating and he is a winner of .

 

1st Open NIPA 22,585 birds

1st Open NIPA 22,889 birds

1st Open NIPA 23,767 birds

2nd Open NIPA 24,105 birds ( beat by loft mate )

3rd Open NIPA 3,421 birds  ( beat by 2 loft mates )

16th Open NIPA 20,699 birds

 

1st Irish Region RPRA 0-250 miles Sprint Champion

1st Irish Region RPRA Any Distance Champion

 

1st National RPRA 0-250 miles Sprint Champion

1st National RPRA Any Distance Champion

[Guest]

Ron-Ville-Millennium Superstar , Bred and raced by Ron Williamson is Father & Daughter mating and he is a winner of .

 

1st Open NIPA 22,585 birds

1st Open NIPA 22,889 birds

1st Open NIPA 23,767 birds

2nd Open NIPA 24,105 birds ( beat by loft mate )

3rd Open NIPA 3,421 birds  ( beat by 2 loft mates )

16th Open NIPA 20,699 birds

 

1st Irish Region RPRA 0-250 miles Sprint Champion

1st Irish Region RPRA Any Distance Champion

 

1st National RPRA 0-250 miles Sprint Champion

1st National RPRA Any Distance Champion

 

has he not also put sons and daughters of this cock together to breed good birds too? or did i hear wrong?

[Guest karl adams]

the pair i have are from a long line of winners the cock has 6 cards  plus the birds in the ped bread birds that took

17 x 1st clubs

2 x 1st feds

2 x 2nd feds

for MR B chaplin in 2002

 

the hen is a daughter out of him she has 3 cards that she took as a young bird then was put to stock she is also out of the best of MR B chaplin birds

[Guest karl adams]

the hen is an 07 bird the cock is an 06 bird

[Roland]

So are you after keep the blood / genes / making a pool of their traits. Seems that a pool would be good. Has the cock bird bred anything any good? Or the daughter for that matter?

Not knocking, every one to their own and how they seem fit.

Mind I don't think Ron Williamson is a novice. Especially when you remember his great tutor too. Likewise others names.

 

[Guest karl adams]

the cock has bread other 1st prized winners the daughter i have of him has won too

[Guest Owen]

 

there is no doubt that inbreeding has had a place in the consolidation of traints in a line of pigeons in the same way as it has with other livestock. But that is all it does, consolidate a traint or traints. It is worth bearing in mind that there will be a lot of recessive traints in every individual that are not apparent because they are hidden (recessive). When you inbreed you will have to deal with the whole thing, warts and all. So don't be surprised if you get some negitive results. Scientists have the facilities to carry on breeding to breed out those things that they do not want. You would be very lucky if you could. It is doubtful, on what I have read, that you would have the technical knowledge anyhow. Besides, you would have to engage in properly organised progeny testing to enable you to know (not guess) that you are going in the right direction. There is no other way of knowing for sure, that the individuals you breed are any use. And don't forget that your birds will loose some of their vitality through the effects of inbreeding. Some will say that it is a simple process of outcrossing to gain the advantage of the inbred family. No that is not the case unless you have two inbred families which have been selected and bred in exactly the same way. The example there would be to look at the way plants and farm animals are bred. The differance is that plants and farm animals do not have to compete against each other in races, where energy and vitality is all important. Race horses are a better example. And they are not inbred in spite of the fact there are millions at stake. That should tell you something.

Obviously you will make your own mind up to what you want to do, but I would advise against wasting your's and the birds' time in this way.

I would have thought you would be better employed in using the Bull System to mate your cock with multiple hens and proceed that way. If you do this properly and, if the cock you have is as good as you say it is, you should have a ratio of 1 excellent bird in every 4 you breed, 1 goodish bird and two duffers. That is what you would expect by applying Mendalian thinking to the problem.

I hope this helps

Owen

[Guest karl adams]

thanks i will try the cock with other hens but may have 1 set of young that are in bread then out cross them the next year  would that be ok

[Guest Owen]

karl

no-one knows the answer to that question. My suggestion was based on the best way to maximise the benefits you may have with your pigeon. The first job is to find out if he is capable of breeding anything any good.

So let him mate with you good hen, together with the others and try them on the road. Work them hard providing that they are in good health. Then, here is the best bit, you keep the ones that can do the job and get shot of the others. You should have around 25% of them to build a team, if you are lucky. Be prepared to loose about 50% of them, they would have taken you down the wrong road any way.

The good females will be worth their weight in gold for breeding purposes. The good males should win races and slowly build up to be your next Bull Cocks.

Good luck mate, I hope it goes well

Owen

[Guest Freebird]

Intersesting thread and I think Owen hit the nail on the head. Unless you are prepared to put a lot of time and effort in the results will be poor. As he states it is not only the good traits that will be kept but recessive ones will emerge. This type of breeding is used in fancy and show birds to fix and enhance certain traits i.e. form, colour, pattern, crests etc. but I presume there is a lot of culling involved to get the required results. This can usually be done at an early stage in the fancy/show birds developement as they can be seen. Unfortunately finding out a good racing bird will take much much longer and in most cases a lot of wasted time and that's when you know what you are doing. It would probably be worthwhile having a go as you never know you may just have the right pair but don't build your hopes up to much and certainly don't fill your loft full of these until they have proven themselves which will no doubt take a long time. It would be good to hear if any members on this site have had success with inbreeding.

[Roland]

Karl, I agree totally with Owen's prior post, and most of his last post.

Until one, especially the one doing the incest breeding, fully understands the whys and wherefores it is very much a downward exercise regards your birds.

Would I ever do it! No, I certainly know enough to know it is a 'Master Stockman's' game.

In my oppinion it is the main reason the buildings and churches are getting fuller with NEW stock each year. But if you want to try and decide to go down that road, then good luck to you.

Personally I would try line breeding which has the same - if not better results and no deteriational effects of course.

[Roland]

If one looks at the Alsation dogs etc. and see the results that have happened over a period of time, one may quickly realise that they are only good for 'Showing. Their backs are weaker, the A R Se has all but disappeared, the temprement is very suspect, a lot worse than it was etc. etc. Indeed nigh all creatures incest bred.

[ritchie1]

yes by all means if you have a old stock cock and he is of good stock then put him on with a daughter to keap the lines then put the youngster off them to stcock to cross out best birds to use for a cross i have done it this year with stormqueens great great grandson as hes 15 now i got 1 off him but hes a cracker just so i can keap the stormqueen lines as my uncle did the same with the old cock i have he was double inbred to stormqueen so i have just done the same

[Roland]

Louella - and the Ole man was arguably in top three stockmen of all time... George Bussearts was possibly the No 1 of all time.- But that is all open to debate obviously. Yet you can buy double GREAT grand children of the greats. These are proven to excell in good fanciers hands.

I wonder if many lofts have the calibre of birds to warrent this, as to buying in the blood.

[ritchie1]

MMMMMMM

[Guest Owen]

This subject is my favourite preoccupation. I have spent a lot of time trying to understand how practical genetics work. The secret of good breeding is to test all the progeny properly. As freebird says, it is easy with show animals and birds because you can see if you are going in the right direction. Racing pigeons are probably the most difficult of all the livestock to breed. The reason is that there is no easy way to test the progeny. In addition to that, the races are usually organised to start at the short ones and end with the long ones.

I don't think it is possible to test the birds to fly all the distances. It is much simpler to concentrate on either the sprints or the distance.

Even master breeders like George Busschaert and Staf van Reet concentrated their efforts on certain types of races. George Busschaert deserves credit for the fact that he did it both at the distance and at the sprints. But it must also be bourne in mind that Busschaert bought a lot of proven good pigeons to use in his breeding programmes. Not many of us would be able to afford to do as he did. It takes a lot of money and space to go down that road.

Inbreeding causes as many problems as it solves. I imported Texel Sheep which are noted to be able to produce excellent carcases. And these were developed by a master breeder. In fact the breeder cocerned also bred the Holstien Cattle. I will not list the faults here but take it from me there are a lot of problems with Texel Sheep. Everybody and his brother knows about the genetically based problems with dogs. And as Roland says, I am sure that these inbred freaks that are purchased every year are swelling the ranks of the ferals.

To inbreed properly I think you need a degree in applied genetics to understand the maths let alone the complicated outcomes they deal with. They have left Mendal the Monk behind long ago.

[hannigf]

Owen, for the absolute novice give me the rough basics of the 'BULL BREEDING' concept.

 

           Francy.

[Guest]

Owen, for the absolute novice give me the rough basics of the 'BULL BREEDING' concept.

 

           Francy.

 

wouldnt mind that mesel