Paratyphoid! Can it be stopped?

[me]

All 'internal' skins in all animals which come into contact with the outside world are lined with a protective mucous. Within that mucous are 'white blood cells' produced by the body. Also within that mucous are friendly bacteria, mainly lactobacteria, and not produced by the body, but there with its consent. Collectively part of the immune system, these bacteria are just as sensitive to antibiotics,  and can be killed-off. That leaves spaces in the mucous open to colonisation by pathogens. One of the most common result of antibiotic use is a yeast overgrowth. Growth that lactobacteria had previously held in check, a process known as Competitive Exclusion.

 

Extract from a Swedish scientific paper, 2006

 

Competitive exclusion

The use of competitive exclusion, in which the normal intestinal flora protects the host against invading pathogens, is a valuable part of Salmonella control in poultry farming. Competitive exclusion cultures have been used and tested in various countries, as reviewed by Schneitz and Mead (52). Positive results from the use of competitive exclusion have also been reported in pigs (22).

 

Antimicrobials

The use of antimicrobials to prevent suffering and economic losses in individual animals and herds can be justified, but should always be combined with other Salmonella reduction measures. Antibiotics have sometimes been used to prevent animals shedding Salmonella (36), but the use of antibiotics in pigs with enterocolitis has not been found to reduce the prevalence, magnitude or duration of Salmonella shedding by sick or recovered animals (70). Earlier, similar observations were made for experimental and natural S. Dublin infections in cattle (65). Both these findings agree with results from the use of antibiotics in human salmonellosis, i.e. that they have long been recognised to prolong the carrier state (4).The use of antimicrobials for therapy or growth promotion may also disrupt the gut flora, which often increases the susceptibility of pigs to Salmonella infection. The use of antibiotics may thus act as a trigger to spread Salmonella infection throughout a herd, which would not have occurred if the animals remained untreated. This phenomenon has been thoroughly documented in poultry (57) and is also likely to occur in other animal species. The European Food Safety Authority recently gave an opinion on the use of antibiotics to control Salmonella in poultry (15), which concurred with that of WHO (74), i.e. that Salmonella control should not be based on antibiotics. The emergence of antibiotic resistance is another serious reason why antibiotics should be used with great care, as demonstrated by the emergence and fast spread of the multi-resistant S. Typhimurium definitive phage type (DT) 104 (60).

 

In developed countries, it is also becoming increasingly accepted that a majority of the resistant strains of zoonotic Salmonella spp. have acquired that resistance in an animal host before being transmitted to humans through the food chain (42, 60). The prevalence of resistant isolates in countries where intensive animal production is practised is between 10% and 30%. When herds are held under strong antibiotic selective pressures, due to the intensive use of antibiotics, the prevalence of resistant strains rises to between 60% and 90% (26). As these bacterial strains are of considerable potential clinical importance to human health, this is a matter of real concern.

 

 

Thankfully Bruno lad, as I am sure you know pigeon salmonella infection (variant type copenhagen) is almost exclusive to our birds.

 

I suppose we should be grateful for small "mercies"

 

[Guest IB]

I have never heard of a vet telling a fancier to kill all his birds well or ill and to start again from scratch. In fact if you think about it telling you to do that and NOT START AGAIN would make more sense.

 

I may be wrong, but I believe this advice 'originates' from Beyer the people who make Baytril. :-

If Salmonella typhimurium DT 104 (a serotype prone to develop decreased susceptibility to antimicrobials) has been historically reported or is detected in a herd or flock, treatment with a quinolone is not recommended. Instead an eradication program should be initiated. In general, livestock and poultry producers should take steps to intensify Salmonella control measures in order to reduce the persistence or spread  of  Salmonella typhimurium DT 104.

 

http://www.poultry.baytril.com/index.php/fuseaction/download/lrn_file/Quinolones_E_Internet.pdf

 

 

 

[me]

 

I may be wrong, but I believe this advice 'originates' from Beyer the people who make Baytril. :-

If Salmonella typhimurium DT 104 (a serotype prone to develop decreased susceptibility to antimicrobials) has been historically reported or is detected in a herd or flock, treatment with a quinolone is not recommended. Instead an eradication program should be initiated. In general, livestock and poultry producers should take steps to intensify Salmonella control measures in order to reduce the persistence or spread  of  Salmonella typhimurium DT 104.

 

http://www.poultry.baytril.com/index.php/fuseaction/download/lrn_file/Quinolones_E_Internet.pdf

 

 

 

You are wrong hope that is clear enough Bruno lad!

 

What you have posted is information for POULTRY PRODUCERS  PRODUCING POULTRY FOR HUMAN CONSUMPTION.

 

Have to say Bruno lad bit disappointed in you misleading post

 

 

[frank1]

Prevention.

Isolate newly introduced birds and if there is any doubt have faeces and mouth swabs cultured for Salmonella.  

Good loft hygiene will reduce spread within the loft and where a loft is known to be affected then an eradication and control programme, which will depend upon conditions in the loft and facilities etc., needs to be agreed with the attending veterinary surgeon.

 

 

Cull any bird with joint disease

 

[bewted]

 

You are wrong hope that is clear enough Bruno lad!

 

What you have posted is information for POULTRY PRODUCERS  PRODUCING POULTRY FOR HUMAN CONSUMPTION.

 

Have to say Bruno lad bit disappointed in you misleading post

 

 

me,,,,can i ask you are you in the veterinary field as you seem to know a lot,but,tell very little ?   just curious !!!

 

[me]

Prevention.

Isolate newly introduced birds and if there is any doubt have faeces and mouth swabs cultured for Salmonella.  

Good loft hygiene will reduce spread within the loft and where a loft is known to be affected then an eradication and control programme, which will depend upon conditions in the loft and facilities etc., needs to be agreed with the attending veterinary surgeon.

 

 

 

Cull any bird with joint disease

 

Take it you keep chickens the same as well Bruno lad!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111

 

[frank1]

 

Take it you keep chickens the same as well Bruno lad!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111

 

 

u most keep chickens m8 u no alot about them by the sound of it

 

 

[me]

 

me,,,,can i ask you are you in the veterinary field as you seem to know a lot,but,tell very little ?   just curious !!!

 

To quote a famous Scotsman "maybes aye maybes naw"

 

What I can say is, I passionately want fanciers birds to survive long enough to get lost racing if that has to happen.

 

All I will say is protect your birds. "Cider vinegar" might help but sometimes it will not be enough.

 

 

[frank1]

theres been lofts shut down by defra and all birds desposed off fact wot facts u got vet ME

 

[bewted]

 

To quote a famous Scotsman "maybes aye maybes naw"

 

What I can say is, I passionately want fanciers birds to survive long enough to get lost racing if that has to happen.

 

All I will say is protect your birds. "Cider vinegar" might help but sometimes it will not be enough.

 

 

 

ok,apart from cider vinegar,,,,what other suggestions can you make that might help ?

 

[frank1]

 

To quote a famous Scotsman "maybes aye maybes naw"

 

What I can say is, I passionately want fanciers birds to survive long enough to get lost racing if that has to happen.

 

All I will say is protect your birds. "Cider vinegar" might help but sometimes it will not be enough.

 

 

 

and wot does the cider vinegar protect

[me]

 

 

u most keep chickens m8 u no alot about them by the sound of it

 

 

Have had some experience with the chooks but HAVE NEVER SOLD EGGS OR CHICKENS. "good life sort of crap" when I was studying. Saying that don't mind them so why get so engrossed with their treatment if they don't really bother oor doos?

[me]

Let "me " take the last 2 posts together.

 

Treat as little as you can!    Canker, Cocci,Worms?

 

Yes you are right you have heard it before.

[me]

theres been lofts shut down by defra and all birds desposed off fact wot facts u got vet ME

 

"Facts are" maybe you might have lost  some birds in a kind of over stocked pigeon race. I did'nt my birds are real racers!!!!!!!!!!

 

[me]

 

 

and wot does the cider vinegar protect

 

Only certain bacteria which to be honest don't alwas protect our birds against ANYTHING.

 

 

[me]

 

 

ok,apart from cider vinegar,,,,what other suggestions can you make that might help ?

 

Race them as hard as nails when they are ready for it. Thats all they need if they are real friends of yours and ready to go, they will come back!

 

[frank1]

ME i agree with some of ur posts but if a vet test ur birds and it comes back possitive for salmonella

then they have to alert defra by law

wot would u do with birds infected with salmonella?

[ChrisMaidment08]

proberbly tell vet he is talking rubbish then fly them :P ;D ;D ;D ;D

[Guest IB]

Generally speaking, you need to keep canker and cocci under control. You will find that by treating your birds every 6-8 weeks throughout the year (you need not worry if the parents are pumping youngsters as it will in no way harm them), neither of these two conditions will ever be of concern again. Ridzol will take care of the canker and Amperol will more than suffice for cocci. These two products can be safely used together. The dosage is 1/2 teaspoon of Ridzol plus 12.55 cc of Amperol per gallon of water. You would use these together for 3-5 days depending on the original count. Remember that both of these organisms are always present in the pigeon. The point is not to eradicate but only to keep at a manageable level that does not adversely effect performance. Remember neither of these drugs are antibiotics.

 

From Wim Peter’s Fit to Win 2: Ridzol contains ronidazol.Amprol I assume is Amperol which contains amprolium. These Active Ingredients are both antibiotics.

 

I’ve posted previously on this one; pigeon fanciers often don’t realise the substance they are treating their birds is an antibiotic. I realise that the sentence highlighted in red comes from the website that you took this from, but if you look at the short definition below, he too is mistaken in his belief.

  

Antibiotics may be informally defined as the sub-group of anti-infectives that are derived from bacterial sources and are used to treat bacterial infections. ..... Other antibiotics may be useful in treating protozoal infections.

 

http://www.answers.com/topic/antibiotic?cat=health

 

 

[Guest IB]

ame: Enrofloxacin   (Baytril)

Description: Enrofloxacin is a synthetic chemotherapeutic agent from the quinolone class of drugs. It has antibactericidal activity against a broad spectrum of gram + and gram - bacteria.  It is rapidly absorbed and penetrates all body tissues well.

Usage: Enrofloxacin can be used with any bacterial infection showing susceptibility to the drug.

Adverse reactions: Enrofloxacin causes increased mortality in the egg when the hen is treated during egg formation. It will cause cartilage abnormalities in growing squabs, especially during the 1st week to 10 days of age. This. however, is not always seen.

Dosage: 5 - 10 mg/bird divided daily for 7 - 14 days. 150 - 600 mg/gallon for 7 - 14 days.

Comments: Probably the best drug we have for the gram - infections of pigeons. It is the only drug shown to prevent recurrence of shedding in most cases of salmonella infection at 6 mg/pound for 10 days. We assume that this means the carrier state has been eliminated in these birds. The liquid water soluble form is not yet approved for use in the U.S. Because of the base used in the tablets, they are not soluble in water by any means

 

Perhaps those who promote pre-treatment with Baytril to 'clear the carrier state of salmonella' would care to comment on this extract from a scientific paper on salmonella, carried on World Organisation for Animal Health (OIE) Website, which states there is categoric proofs from many different countries (rather than an assumption based on one piece of research) that not only does antibiotic treatment achieve nothing of the kind, but also the effects are the exact opposite - it tends to spread the disease?

 

Antimicrobials

The use of antimicrobials to prevent suffering and economic losses in individual animals and herds can be justified, but should always be combined with other Salmonella reduction measures. Antibiotics have sometimes been used to prevent animals shedding Salmonella (36), but the use of antibiotics in pigs with enterocolitis has not been found to reduce the prevalence, magnitude or duration of Salmonella shedding by sick or recovered animals (70). Earlier, similar observations were made for experimental and natural S. Dublin infections in cattle (65). Both these findings agree with results from the use of antibiotics in human salmonellosis, i.e. that they have long been recognised to prolong the carrier state (4).The use of antimicrobials for therapy or growth promotion may also disrupt the gut flora, which often increases the susceptibility of pigs to Salmonella infection. The use of antibiotics may thus act as a trigger to spread Salmonella infection throughout a herd, which would not have occurred if the animals remained untreated. This phenomenon has been thoroughly documented in poultry (57) and is also likely to occur in other animal species. The European Food Safety Authority recently gave an opinion on the use of antibiotics to control Salmonella in poultry (15), which concurred with that of WHO (74), i.e. that Salmonella control should not be based on antibiotics. The emergence of antibiotic resistance is another serious reason why antibiotics should be used with great care, as demonstrated by the emergence and fast spread of the multi-resistant S. Typhimurium definitive phage type (DT) 104 (60).

 

 

[Roland]

Perhaps one ought to take stock and revaluate what is being posted. I.B. for instance, it is all very well searching the net and copying, then pasting things for all to read. 995 of us don't even understand the gist, let alone the meaning and certainly not the very basis and fundemental of what is written ... and one would find it very hard, time consuming - why folks spend years at Uni or labs learning! Indeed I.B no disrespect, but do you actually and really understand any of the things you find and paste? It would take yonks of years for the layman.

Here is what a very good Vet / Doc posted me, and I believe this puts it in a nut shell for all to understand ... whether one wants to believe or not, or even act, is obviously another matter.

 

This is part of the reply.....

 

As for Paratyphus I know some will say it is controversial but cull is the only way to eradicate it in a loft. Personally I feel that injection is just another way to make money.

 

We have a guy here working on salmonella in Chickens, and he told me that it needs to be a live vaccine for the variant of salmonella you got. How many actually know they have salmonella and how many think they got it.

 

Its pointless guessing. I feel all this illness is a mutation of PMV as paratyphus will affect the breeding first. How many get good hatches birds go sick and they become a vet and say its paratyphus.

 

You are doing everything right, my source says sanitation is the best way in combating salmonella. A little bleach in the drinker or virkon will kill it in your own loft as will washing the loft out regulary.

End of

.............................................................

he also asked why do people jab, to prevent, or use antibiotics for a Virus .... Indeed what viagrant / strain are they inoculating against? Then different species have different Viarants again ...

[Silverdale Lofts]

correct rose  but then its up to person who owns birds but me gone  why would you keep birds that are infected  yes they look great yes they have good body condition yes they fly but thats it what use if you cant breed from them if you have any sense cull clean start again

 

Best answer on the thread im afraid to say

[DOVEScot]

Perhaps one ought to take stock and revaluate what is being posted. I.B. for instance, it is all very well searching the net and copying, then pasting things for all to read. 995 of us don't even understand the gist, let alone the meaning and certainly not the very basis and fundemental of what is written ... and one would find it very hard, time consuming - why folks spend years at Uni or labs learning! Indeed I.B no disrespect, but do you actually and really understand any of the things you find and paste? It would take yonks of years for the layman.

Here is what a very good Vet / Doc posted me, and I believe this puts it in a nut shell for all to understand ... whether one wants to believe or not, or even act, is obviously another matter.

 

This is part of the reply.....

 

As for Paratyphus I know some will say it is controversial but cull is the only way to eradicate it in a loft. Personally I feel that injection is just another way to make money.

 

We have a guy here working on salmonella in Chickens, and he told me that it needs to be a live vaccine for the variant of salmonella you got. How many actually know they have salmonella and how many think they got it.

 

Its pointless guessing. I feel all this illness is a mutation of PMV as paratyphus will affect the breeding first. How many get good hatches birds go sick and they become a vet and say its paratyphus.

 

You are doing everything right, my source says sanitation is the best way in combating salmonella. A little bleach in the drinker or virkon will kill it in your own loft as will washing the loft out regulary.

End of

.............................................................

he also asked why do people jab, to prevent, or use antibiotics for a Virus .... Indeed what viagrant / strain are they inoculating against? Then different species have different Viarants again ...

 

When we had trouble the Defra and our local vet both agreed that they were given Baytril as a broad band antibiotic until they post mortem a live bird and grew cultures in the lab to find out what exactly what we had, it was salmonella and as in any creature as well as humans you get them that clear of the disease and them that are carriers for life.

They were given regular droppings tests to see if it was in the other loft and hen coops, because we had hens this was stipulated rather than precautionary. Although I chose to cull all the birds in the infected loft, all because we never at that time isolated new stock, the bird that brought it in was from a well known fancier who turns out to less than honest in his practices. :-/

 

[Guest IB]

Indeed I.B no disrespect, but do you actually and really understand any of the things you find and paste? It would take yonks of years for the layman. ...

 

I’ll take your question as genuine Roland.

 

My credentials are indeed layman, and I have never pretended to be anything other than that. But I can show that I understand most, if not all of anything that I have ever posted., considering most were extracts from technical papers:- In the early days of this Site the great unknown was avian flu, still in far off Asia. I and others set out to find out what we could about it, so that we had the facts for members of this Site. One of the ‘facts’ by a prominent pigeon vet published in the pigeon press at that time was that pigeons were immune to avian flu. Simply by looking at reports filed by different countries to the World Organisation for Animal Health on their website (the animal equivalent of the World Health Organisation) it was clear to me that that was wrong, because pigeons had died in the first HN51 outbreak in Hong Kong in 1997 and again in Thailand. The vets had misinterpreted information they had been given by Dr Swayne – yes pigeons are immune to Low Pathogenic avian flu, but, not the High Pathogenic type, as they can be susceptible to H5N1.

 

So all that is required is the ability to read, and if there is contradiction between statements, to ask the right questions – that’s all I’m looking for – getting the facts right.

 

 

Perhaps one ought to take stock and revaluate what is being posted.

 

Exactly my point Roland. Too many things being pushed here just don’t add up.

 

I.B. for instance, it is all very well searching the net and copying, then pasting things for all to read. 995 of us don't even understand the gist, let alone the meaning and certainly not the very basis and fundemental of what is written ... and one would find it very hard, time consuming - why folks spend years at Uni or labs learning!

 

The gist (my concerns) are:-

 

(1)     There are over 2000 strains of Salmonella, supposedly only one (Copenhagen) can affect pigeons. According to John Gray’s paper on Salmonella DT104 on the web, DT104 has infected pigeons (and lots of other animals including humans) and is resistant to the antibiotics: ampicillin, chloramphenicol, streptomycin, sulfonamides, tetracycline, and fluroquinolone - often the only effective drugs for treating humans. Fluroquinolones include Baytril® and Parastop® . Yet this thread attempts to promote the use of both of these antibiotics in a way that endangers us humans, and our pigeons. The rest of the world is actively stopping misuse while pigeon people are actively promoting misuse.

 

 

(2)     The thread talks about the spread of salmonella – can it be stopped? – it promotes the use of antibiotics in the face of world advice that using antibiotics actually spreads Salmonella. If posts on here are to be believed and it is spreading like wildfire, and every pigeon in the world has it, well giving antibiotics hasn’t worked too well in the past, has it?

 

 

(3)     It clear from the thread that most fanciers don’t even know they are using antibiotics on their pigeons, and using stuff like Parastop that is not even authorized in the UK. They actively bring them in and share them out. Then they wonder why and how disease spreads.

 

[Guest Paulo]

It all boils down to results in the end tho doesn't it! Keeping canker, cocci and worms off the birds is esstential. I'd say 90% of successful fanciers have a health programme in place for their birds.