Milk to drink?

[Guest CS]

does anyone give their birds milk to drink? I have heard of fanciers giving milk powder on the feed, but is there any advantage to giving them fresh milk at any stage?

[Wiley]

My birds on return from the race had a mixture of milk,water and honey! but were only allowed to sip this caused all the toxins built up from the race to be excreted from the body, believe me you've never seen pigeons sh** like that

[pigeonscout]

Butter milk mix 4 water one buter milk great at moult and breeding time.

[pigeonscout]

all the toxins built up from the race to be excreted from the body,

 

Could someone tell me what toxins are built up in a pigeon that races? Because all the bird is doing is flying and if flying built up toxins then they would build up every time the bird flys. I have never seen any proff of a bird building up toxins from flying.

 

 

[Wiley]

i took notice of when the birds begin sent they used to have rosey pink flesh, however on return from the race the flesh would appear to be blueish. I have read blue flesh is a sign of build up of toxins, and is also visable when feeding protein as the toxins supposably build up. I found out the way of removing the toxins was in the above method, which i found out from best of british video. It worked for me as on return from race blue skin, but on the evening time they returned back to rosey pink. Whether right or wrong, this was the process i used to do, i do not have any scientifical knowledge to answer your question of the build up of toxins, just my observations and readings!  

[Guest]

;D ;Dalso wiley rqd that blue skin is a sign of respiratory disease ,kin see both your points ,but am of the belief if a pigeons body is full of toxins thwere only there from which the fancier has put there in the way of feeding medication etc ,wild pigeons never seem to suffer from this and they eat rubbish ,maybe some of the older generation can shed a bit of light on this blueish skin  ;D ;D ;D ;D

[pigeonscout]

You will get the same results if you put 4 heaped tea spoons of sugar and 1 level tea spoon of salt in 2lt water after race. It is just replacing the electrolytes nothing to do with toxins. The above is the best electrolytes you can give your birds. It was the electrolytes doctors give to babies in their bottles years ago when they where not holding down their food to stop them dehydrating. If it is going to be a hard race or very hot give it for one day, two days before basket and after hard race.

 

 

[pigeonscout]

Im still trying to work out what this all means http://www.springerlink.com/content/tv244285536t3171/

[Guest]

Im still trying to work out what this all means http://www.springerlink.com/content/tv244285536t3171/

 

Its an abstract of a pretty old paper, 1996, and I agree, pretty difficult to read. One paragraph in particular tells us that it is mainly fat [lipids] which the bird burns up, which I think we already know from more current writers like Gordon Chalmers.

 

However on the second bit, uric acid build up in the plasma [blood], I reckon researchers got the reason for that wrong - bird retains uric acid to help control its body temperature during flight. Uric acid is the way the bird gets rid of electrolytes [white paste atop the droppings] and is further evidence that bird doesn't lose electrolytes during flight, and that it actually builds them up in the body during flight.

 

This may suggest a more important sparing of carbohydrates and protein as gluconeogenic precursors in the pigeon than in other species. Plasma uric acid levels increased linearly up to about 4 h flight duration. This indicates an accelerated protein breakdown during flight which may primarily serve to deliver amino acids as glucogenic precursors and citrate cycle intermediates. With increasing flight duration, the energy sources change from an initial phase based primarily on carbohydrates to a lipid-based endurance phase.

[jimmy white]

all the toxins built up from the race to be excreted from the body,

 

Could someone tell me what toxins are built up in a pigeon that races? Because all the bird is doing is flying and if flying built up toxins then they would build up every time the bird flys. I have never seen any proff of a bird building up toxins from flying.

 

 

my own opinion on this ,, there is a vast differance from a bird flying round the loft for an hour enjoying itself than a bird flying an ardious race .at speed this bird is using body reserves which need to be replaced asap ,, birds comming home after a fairly hard flight and using stress up abnormally in basketing and traveling,, allways have loose droppings ,, loose droppings usually indicate that there are toxins in the body, [for whatever the reason] i have found that giving them ordinary milk [half milk half water ]  helps enormously to get these droppings back to normal  [off course there are other ways too] really it only needs tried on half the returning birds to see the differance,, as one of the last poster says that blue flesh is as symtom of respiratory , this could be answered as a yes and a no , as blue flesh could could mean many things ,, one thing , the birds not in the best condition,,,,,,we all have differant fads and fancies ,but my own opinion is that milk or , glucose or honey, or even , sugar , all aid to a quicker recovery.  p,s the white top on the droppings is there p

[Guest youngzimmy]

there is an old saying if you believe all you here you will eat all you see i have seen a lot of dog sh** on the pavment but never had any desire to eat it  catch my drift  and jimmy you are probably closest to right

    

[pigeonscout]

electrolytes include sodium, potassium, chloride, and bicarbonate, How can a bird build these up in flight where does it make them in flight?

 

By Gordon Chambers, DVM on Friday, June 9, 2000 - 07:46 PM:

CC/Spud: There is no place for Epsom salts in the loft. It works by drawing badly needed fluids from body tissues into the intestines and these fluids are then expelled as loose droppings. It simply dehydrates returning racers even further, something they really don't need.

 

So according to Gordon Chambers birds do dehydrate when racing, so it would make good practice to give them an electrolyte.

Lose dropping can be caused by a number of things including the stress of the race and that has nothing to do with toxins.

 

My question is what toxins i.e.  poisonous substances does a bird produce in flight? It is my opinion  that there is no such toxins in a bird returning from a race.

[Wiley]

when a muscle is working anerobically the muscle will produce a posionous substance called Lactic Acid, so a bird could get a build up of lactic acid!  

[Guest]

electrolytes include sodium, potassium, chloride, and bicarbonate, How can a bird build these up in flight where does it make them in flight?

 

By Gordon Chambers, DVM on Friday, June 9, 2000 - 07:46 PM:

CC/Spud: There is no place for Epsom salts in the loft. It works by drawing badly needed fluids from body tissues into the intestines and these fluids are then expelled as loose droppings. It simply dehydrates returning racers even further, something they really don't need.

 

So according to Gordon Chambers birds do dehydrate when racing, so it would make good practice to give them an electrolyte.

 

Cut your quote down to show bits I'm picking up on.  

 

If bird does not expel electrolytes during flight, and is losing water thro dehydration, then there is 'a build-up of electrolyte' in the blood - increased salt concentrations. This also causes the blood to thicken and puts additional pressure on the heart.

 

Electrolytes are salts as are  sodium, potassium, chloride, and bicarbonate.  Dehydration is lack of water. The way to rehydrate a bird after flight is to give it water, as much as it wants. That balances out high salt / low water levels in the body. Giving the bird more salt [whether it be epsom or electrolyte] doesn't rehydrate it, it only dehydrates the bird further - just as Gordon Chalmers says.

[pigeonscout]

 

Cut your quote down to show bits I'm picking up on.  

 

If bird does not expel electrolytes during flight, and is losing water through dehydration, then there is 'a build-up of electrolyte' in the blood - increased salt concentrations. This also causes the blood to thicken and puts additional pressure on the heart.

 

Electrolytes are salts as are  sodium, potassium, chloride, and bicarbonate.  Dehydration is lack of water. The way to rehydrate a bird after flight is to give it water, as much as it wants. That balances out high salt / low water levels in the body. Giving the bird more salt [whether it be epsolm or electrolyte] doesn't rehydrate it, it only dehydrates the bird further - just as Gordon Chalmers says.

 

I agree with what you are saying, The point I was making was birds do not make it in flight they call on it in flight it has to be there in the first place. If they use it in flight does it not make sense to replace it in the water ie rehydrate + replace used electrolyte + energy.

 

[pigeonscout]

when a muscle is working anerobically the muscle will produce a posionous substance called Lactic Acid, so a bird could get a build up of lactic acid!  

 

 

Anyone know any good sites where I can read up on the effects of Lactic Acid on racing pigeons.

[jimmy white]

,,,,,quote "after a long term flight [the energy source muscles prefer to burn over long periods of time] metabolism is slowed, and destructive ketone bodies and lactic acid build up in the muscles and joints,and act as antagonistic poisons, crippling the possibility of neuro-biochemical refreshment" unquote,,, ; phew  ;D

written by a dr warren r. sheradon, d,v,m, [whatever that means ;D]

[pigeonscout]

,,,,,quote "after a long term flight [the energy source muscles prefer to burn over long periods of time] metabolism is slowed, and destructive ketone bodies and lactic acid build up in the muscles and joints,and act as antagonistic poisons, crippling the possibility of neuro-biochemical refreshment" unquote,,, ; phew  ;D

written by a dr warren r. sheradon, d,v,m, [whatever that means ;D]

 

When you exercise, your muscles burn sugar, fat or protein in the presence of oxygen to produce energy. If you exercise so intensely that you become very short of breath and your muscles can’t get enough oxygen, lactic acid accumulates in your muscle fibers. A study from Australia shows that lactic acid buildup in muscles does not make muscles tired and may even make muscle contract more efficiently, which may increase your endurance (Science, August 26, 2004.) This startling research contradicts what most instructors teach in their exercise classes.

 

The old theory was that lactic acid makes the muscles more acidic which causes them to hurt and burn and interferes with their ability to contract, so you feel tired. This new research shows that rat’s muscles contact more efficiently when lactic acid accumulates in them. Electric currents cause muscles to contract. This electricity is generated by cell membranes causing potassium to move inside cells and chloride ions to stay outside. With vigorous exercise, potassium ions accumulate outside cells. As large amounts of potassium ions accumulate outside cells, electricity is not generated and the cells cannot contract. Another ion called chloride accumulates outside cells and prevents potassium from getting back inside cells. Lactic acid removes the chloride, so it is easier for potassium to get back inside cells. Therefore lactic acid increases the ratio of potassium inside cells to the amount outside, and this helps the muscle contract with more efficiency.

 

[pigeonscout]

Its the same old story one min the experts tell us it is bad for us, the next min they tell you it is good for us. So maybe in a couple of years time when the experts on lactic acid know what they are talking about we may have a better idea of its effects. One thing they all agree on is that the lack of oxygen to the mussel play a big part. so the blueish flesh comment by Wiley is a good point.

 

Below is for humans not pigeons but If it is the same for pigeons then all they need is oxygen to convert the lactic acid.

The process of lactic acid removal takes approx. one hour, but this can be accelerated by undertaking an appropriate cool down that ensures a rapid and continuous supply of oxygen to the muscles.

 

65% of lactic acid is converted to carbon dioxide and water, 20% into glycogen, 10% into protein and 5% into glucose.

[Roland]

Simply when the fat, or whatever other sauce is burnt, then the Birds bun their muscles. Toxin  quickly sets in, and the worst scenario s forced fying! Leave them be,   3 peanuts and say Molasses in the water and rest...

[Guest]

Like giving electrolytes to pigeons, there are differing opinions on the affect lactic acid has on muscles; as Pigeonscout says, in humans it is now thought that lactic acid production sparks a second activity providing an increase in energy supply to the muscles. I don't have an opinion on that as it is birds we are dealing with and I don't know enough about this process in birds other than - there are differing opinions on how lactic acid effects pigeons' muscles.  

 

Perhaps there is misunderstanding tho of the by-products of normal metabolism of any organism, animal or bird. These by-products are normal and are called waste products or toxins. The body has several ways of ridding itself of these, and the kidneys are one, filtering venal blood and flushing 'toxins' down the tubes.

 

The very fact that the body has mechanisms for ridding itself of these byproducts suggests that their retention in the body would be harmful.

[Guest CS]

Interesting replys... thank you very much...

[Roland]

It is when exerted that they use Muscles as Heat units, after the starch, fat etc. has been exhausted. I stay well away from Electrolyte after any exertion at all ... so would use it if given me.

[jimmy white]

on about salt,,why does a pigeon dive at salt whilst feeding young, ??remember theres salt in most pickstones minerals and grits etc , put a lump of rock salt out [or coos lick,as we would call it ], when their feeding young,and see what happens??,,,they know what they want and when they want it,  [theres even bleach in black minerals, if you look at the ingredients]

 

[Guest slugmonkey]

I try to replace these things throughout the week in the food and water and with mineral supplements but on race day I only give fresh water I think they need moisture and I dont want them to cut consumption because they taste something that is off maybe giving such a mix after they have been home a while wouldnt be a bad thing ???