Inbreeding programe coming up

[Roland]

I see that there is next week sometime a program showing the terrible detrimental happenings from incest breeding. Seems now that the Kennel Club are even trying to get ALL dog micro chipped with a view of safe guarding and only allowing certain matings, and ALL out crossings. With them being the 'Watch dog' ... No pun intended lol. The trailer for those that saw were told a few distressing happings, and real bad consequences Yep same in all walks of life regardless how one hopes it to be different.

[jimmy white]

there is no doubt there is more disease in pigeons now, than in the past,, i would suspect due to many situations, , i wonder why these diseases are more prevelant to-day than many years ago?? many new un-natural systems?? maybe pushing the boat too far at times?? who knows,,,but as  the old saying goes  " kick against nature and itll kick back",, i wonder if this is the kick back ,,

i often wonder if there is too much inbreeding now,, not [in my opinion, first cross incest , as roly puts it,[but thats the start]   but continual inbreeding through many years, with these  same inbred or incest  birds,

i think there is much we dont know about this , and the possible damage it could be doing,, again , who knows??  

but its maybe time to delve further into this long term practice, and any possible damage this could be doing in the long term , over many years??

[Roland]

Incest breeding is done like on a Bull System to have, ATTAIN a Pool of Blood / Genes Full stop. Then the youngsters are outcrossed straight of for racing. Having 2 - 3 or more likewise bred, but completely different sets of Pools / Genes prolongs the bloods and adds Vigour to the youngsters. This also ensures that there is no more incest breeding from these Gene Pools. The youngster are out crossed continuosly and no incest is ever done after. Just the Pools / Genes foundations are used for 'Stock' etc. crossed or as before. The Racers are mated only via 'Out Crossing'! Most interest is taken then via the yearling matings. If the yearlings don't breed a good youngster first off, then they are  changed straight away. Changing the mates may happen 2 - 3 times if the fancier has a particular feel or desire for those birds, whatever it may be. But then discarded as breeders. Some out crosses with produce great racers. Many others won't! But then if the stockman  / fancier sees the detailed results of what lines are producing when crossed with such and such, they are keenly noted. Like wise the crosses that produce nowt, these are removed as breeders. Simple really, but to just incest breed for the sake of what one thinks they are told is good, or because so and so Top man does it is ludicriss to say the least. Like I always say 'Incest' breeding needs 2 - 3 questions to be answered and understood. Not least Why. Then How does one hope achieve to via. What stock and why!!! Then a little question like How can one produce, what it doesn't have? Or are the birds to be used in the Gene Pool good enough at a very high and good level. Yardsticks are needed constantly to improve.

[Guest rodders]

did you see pics in paper last year think was a king charles spaniel where they had trired to breed the perfect shaped dog with  smaller head and the brain was growing out back of skull cos wasnt enuff room in skull

[Guest Owen]

Roland

I am glad you have wieghed in to this debate in the way you have. The problem is that people have read that inbreeding has been used by top Fanciers to good effect without understanding the rules of the game. I am with you all the way when you have called the practice incest breeding, because that is what it is. The only way we can hope to breed an animal of bird for performance is by testing the results of our breeding, thoroughly, all the time. And then rejecting the ones that do not take us in the right direction. Incest breeding does not fit this approach. I use the Bull System of breeding so that my best cocks can cover many more hens than is normal. And it is a great help to have anything up to 20 youngsters from one cock all at about the same age. I have found that some hens do not match these cocks whereas others do. And all my matings are unrelated in the first instance. Obviously I end up with a lot of half brothers and sisters from these good cocks and it is tempting to mate them together. I never have. The best young hens, in terms of performance, are mated to a differant Bull with an equally good performance behind him. Hens that fail as youngsters and hens that fail as breeders are dumped. I am looking for robust healthy birds that can handle the rigours of racing and do not fall ill all the time. Why would I want to prop them up with continual medication. There is too much of that now.  

[Roland]

Owen I believe you are what they / we / I would call in fact 'Line Breeding'. This means - for those that may not get the gist - that the ancestry is traced back from being bred down from 'Certain' birds. Of course, as you say, one comes to get a few closer relatives, which are tempting. Not talking religion, but the best example could well be the linageage of Jesus. All his ancestors tracing back to David then to Adam. A line. That's the reason why A. I would / did run 2 - 3 separate proven lines. This art of stockmanship is then made somewhat easier, but you must have the class birds to do this. (For stock sence is an art you are born with). Soon you will have unrelated, and hopefully proven stock to TEST against each other, then to mix in. The importance of the quality of the birds introduced is of an utmost of course. So it does, and will appear obviously, that many birds are traced back to certain birds, but not through incest breeding! Of course it will, but where many, I believe, go wrong is to think that it is Incest breeding that has done this and not 'Line Breeding. It is vastly different.

I believe it is, as I stated, the out cross brings the vigour, and more importantly a good constitution, to the birds. Incest breeding will quickly irradicate these all important assets.

 

I must this season. or next at least, set up a 'Bull System'. This again gives a pool of Blood / Gene foundations as Owen says.

  Yet  though I bought in well this past month or so, most are of course untested as breeders. I will only have the ancestry to rely on, with more importantly that 'Gut Feeling' to go by.

[Guest Owen]

Roland

I delibrately avoid any hint of relationship when I pair up. I only ever pair unrelated birds and I have no intention of changing my policy.

I never breed from birds that have not won on the road. Where the widow cocks are concerned they are either used as dummies to rear the young from the Bull or I will not breed from them at all. The widow cocks are paired to good hens so that I can have young from the hens by the Bull. The quality of my birds is getting better all the time and my losses are getting less all the time. The best thing about it is the fact that I do not want to breed many youngsters. The worse thing about it is that I always have good hens around and if they do not score as younsters they will eventually get dumped.

[Guest frank dooman]

can i explain my breeding and yous tell me whther iam line breeding or inbreeding stock pair 1 is van-eiden paired to jock ellis hen not related pair 2 E Fox&son from stock loft pair 3  royal cock paired to sister of S Mullans riems winner none of the above are related in any way the idea is to pair the offspring from pair 1 to offspring from pair 2 and 3 now the one prob is the old van-eiden cock is 12yr old and realy showing his age dont know how long he will continue to fill eggs now he is sire/g/sire and great/g/sire to many many winners rightout to 587mls with different hens along the years so i was told to pair  him to 2 of his best dtrs and keep the sons for stock but it was my intension to put grand children and g/grand children from thease 3 pairs together for racing so you tell me

[Roland]

Incest breeding, say Father to Daughter, Mother to son, and  / or visa versa is for building a pool of Blood / Genes full stop. The youngster of these birds are never, or shouldn'n't be for racing, but are to be out cross mated to aother completely non related birds. The youngster from these then carry the genes, which one hopes are good and worth retaining, are thus your racers. To take further youngster and pair back into that original pool is fool hardy. If the 'Racers' don't perform, then the parents are given another chance via mating to different mates some times. - Some are already mated to different mates straight of and records closely kept same season.

[Guest youngboy]

yes i always here that never race a inbred brd there are only bred to breed themselves!!

[Roland]

Further in reality if a Father and a Daughter are both proven winners / breeders what the heck does one want to incest breed them? the father and or Mother have proved themselves. Halving the genes for starters and losing a generation and a another season of all important 'Gene / Blood building make no realistic sense at all, and the shortish  to long term effects are certainly very detrimental. Fact that.