vanlink

I would like to apologise to Jeremy for causing all this fuss over the one loft race, for putting him in an awkward position, for bringing any doubt about his character, for any thing that I have said that is unkind whether intentional or not and causing him a lot of unnecessary stress over the last week. It is easy to post things on forums for discussion but we must be mindful that regardless of that right, the right of an individual not be made uneasy or upset should be the most important consideration. Jeremy was clearly upset by my original Post, which contained statements, which were not necessary to make the point, and despite politely asking me to stop I continued, claiming it was my right to discuss the topic. I pushed him to do and say things that were out of character. I would like to apologise to Puresoontjen, Pete smith, for winding you up and saying anything you felt unkind during your defence of Jeremy when clearly you could see the injustice being done by me and perhaps others to your good friend and fellow competitor. I would like to apologise to any other person defending Jeremy. I would like to apologise to Jeremy’s Father Tim who although did not make any posts I am sure he was aware of what was going on. Yes I did meet with Jeremy Yesterday, something, which he asked for all along. When Jeremy makes that request for someone to meet him or Phone him then one should do so because I think that Jeremy prefers to communicate face to face. Jeremy explained a lot to me that through my immaturity and childish behaviour I had not taken into account. When you talk to Jeremy you realise what a clever, articulate and skilful fancier he is. Not only that he is thoughtful to other fanciers. He asked the club in which he races if they minded the one loft birds taking part because he needed for them to be tested and put under racing conditions and he said that he would just use it as training but the club was unanimously in favour of flying against the one loft birds and having the opportunity to test their own. He explained to me his reasons for wanting the One-loft birds to fly with other birds in races. He cares about the one loft racing experience for the members that have sent their birds in and he is keen to ensure that they get the best preparation prior to the main race. He also wants the main race to be both challenging and exciting. I would also go as far as to say that on speaking to him I could see that he has passion and puts his heart and soul into those birds, his own too. So for a fool like me to come along and challenge that….well its not nice. I would add finally that Jeremy is not only a Gentleman but also a real ambassador for the sport, I would have no hesitation in entering birds into his care, but I reckon a lot of you already knew that. Mike link.

Yes Albear i have been posting for years, but the politics between some of these clubs go back before i was born and when ever a suggestion is made about this it is put to bed quite quickly so i am trying a new approch. I am into long distance but as you know not the easiest of things to do and when you lose some of your candidents for the long races you are only then left with middle distance birds for which i have a strong team but becuase i was late starting the season due to various reasons including a wedding i have now run out of races to send too. The old bird team is now after this week end finished until next year and it seems like an eternity. Why can't we have middle distance races during ybs instead of more middle distance nationals on when they are already on by a new organisation.

At this time of year, now I have stopped fed racing, I suddenly find myself with a load of middle distance pigeons and nowhere to send them. We now seem to be entering either long distance or YB’s. I am still very short of long distance birds and yb racing does not interest me at the moment. I have to wait until the yb nationals to at least give my hens an other outing while my cocks become stay at home widowers. I wonder why in this day and age when there are more and more national races on the table; we cannot see some changes in the format. Is it not old fashioned to have a progressive programme that starts short and ends long? Could we not now have middle distance nationals provided all summer right up until the end of ybs. That way we can dip in and out of races at any time to suit, there is no longer a rush to be ready to send early in the season for fear of missing the progression and you have the opportunity to get the most out of your birds. Remember it’s a six-month winter with no racing and usually 9 months of no old bird racing, very long time. Moving on from this, speaking as a young, naive and keen fancier and not being aware of history, politics and personalities what about looking at the possibility of something radical. What about something that happens all the time in business for many reasons. What about a merger or take over. What about the BICC and the NFC merging to become a super club ‘ The British International and National Flying Club’. Wow imagine that. What a huge membership, what a send that would be. More money, more marking stations etc. No time to suggest the full nitty-gritty but I think that the bicc committee would look after the long internationals and the nfc committee look after the middle distance nationals. Something for every one and then surly not only would the international send go up by sheer more members sending to long races but also by middle distance senders perhaps sending some in the internationals because they are all ready a member of the club. The Bicc committee, secretary etc could then because they no longer have the national races to worry about add the narbonne international into the programme and even work on a uk lead international (how good would that be). The NFC committee could then work on given us more middle distance national races. What do you think?

Thank you Sam, you are a nice lad and you will go along way because you are prepared to offer an apology if you think you may have up set some one, what a great quality . I am sure you did not mean any thing, the trouble with posts is they are without tone or facial expression so we can not see if you are smiling when you write something. I should know I upset people on forums all the time but I do not mean it. Its just passion for the sport, which I know, you have. Little Sam, but a Big Man.

In last weeks Homing world, June 12th, 2009. Page title ‘The Reddings’ under the subheading RPRA ONE-LOFT RACE SUCCESS IN SEVERN VALLEY FEDERATION LESSAY. The following Quote: Quoted Text First well done to Dave & Tina, on winning the one loft race. Well done Jeremy and co for the skill in the preparation. This an other example of your tremendous effort. Splitting hairs I know, but the bird under RPRA rules, should be owned by the person it is being raced by so therefore, bird owned by David Bills or is there an admitted statement that a bird has been raced by some one who is not the owner against RPRA rules. Top lofts, top birds and top management are very difficult to beat, and I do not mind admitting that as an amateur loft I certainly have my work cut to try and beat the mighty RPRA one loft race. P.S for any one gathering evidence, you have missed a third forum that this is being debated on! Or maybe even a forth…happy hunting.

In last weeks Homing world, June 12th, 2009. Page title ‘The Reddings’ under the subheading RPRA ONE-LOFT RACE SUCCESS IN SEVERN VALLEY FEDERATION LESSAY. The following Quote: First well done to Dave & Tina, on winning the one loft race. Well done Jeremy and co for the skill in the preparation. This an other example of your tremendous effort. Splitting hairs I know, but the bird under RPRA rules, should be owned by the person it is being raced by so therefore, bird owned by David Bills or is there an admitted statement that a bird has been raced by some one who is not the owner against RPRA rules. Top lofts, top birds and top management are very difficult to beat, and I do not mind admitting that as an amateur loft I certainly have my work cut to try and beat the mighty RPRA one loft race. P.S for any one gathering evidence, you have missed a third forum that this is being debated on! Or maybe even a forth…happy hunting.

Finally a sensible suggestion, well done Bob. and Hepste, I very important point about the lack of a democratic opportunity to discuss prior to it being allowed possibly as you say by the back door. As said somewhere, I think this is a new concept, which needs debate. We do not necessarily need to stop it, but lets talk about it and come up with compromise maybe. I do not have the intelligence to rig the poll and did not even think In my naivety that it could be done. I would add to Bobs ideal and perhaps suggest a rule change may be in order so that at a designated one loft race if we were to permit them into multi loft races they would be exempt from having to transfer every birds into the loft owner/managers name and they could retain the original owners name but have a mark next to their name in the result showing that they were infact from a one loft race. Just as the total send of individual members has been added to the result sheet of the big clubs because it means something to some one. Dogeon sorry for mentioning your name and indeed making it personal, against my own request, no real excuse other than I have read and written so much that I am losing track of what has been said and by whom.

Finally a sensible suggestion, well done Bob.

dogeon, puresoontjen. Why do you think that I have some kind of personal vendetta or hidden agenda? I have said I do not agree with the concept of a I loft race taking part in a multi loft race. Nothing hidden about what I am saying. I am totally open. Naturally I am more vocal and more aware because it’s happened in my section. You too have experienced it in a slightly different way and you are happy with the arrangement. To different opinions trying to engage support. The following is the post that I made yesterday praising your club. So I really am not out on some personal crusade, but as I have already said to someone on the QT. This subject would have probably died a death but all the shouting and personal insults just create more interest and keep it in the spot light.

I am not sure if you are winding us up but if this is true are the flyers that have paid to enter the one loft race aware that the conditions may change?

Sorry to digress, but does that not change things again. Are you saying that the RPRA one loft ybs are going to be going with a fed and not on thier own? or have i missed a wind up.

Interesting question. Not sure of my answer, do not want to be seen to be contradicting myself, but I have reasons for being 50/50. I think that it would be good for increasing the send to the international and possibly increasing interest in the internationals. A larger send has got to be a good thing for the UK as a whole it would help our birds home. But I would not want it in my section despite the advantage that it may or may not give my birds.

sam, i do not want to get into a row with you, so do not take any thing i say in the wrong way but i think you are slightly miss understanding the issue. This is a slightly new concept. Its not a normal race, but a 1 loft race entering into a race of multiple drops so that in simple terms you could win the 1 loft race and the normal race, but of course it is not quite that simple because the birds must be flown in one name. The Ideal of a 1 loft race was to try and make it more fair, to try and level the playing field. Now that we are moving on and entering those 1 loft birds into a normal race we are adding a new dimension. Now of course this new type of racing could be absolutely fine and a great new way to race, and as pointed out by someone on an other post an opportunity for some to take part in a national race who other wise would not have the chance. It could be good or could be bad, it could be like or could be disliked. It will probably be many things to many people but unless we allow people to share an opinion we will never know. I can see the reason why people are not inclined to contribute towards forums if they are going to be jumped on for having a slightly different view. We are all entitled to a certain amount of freedom of speech provided of course that we try not to offend any one. So I ask again in the interest of fairness please let some one make a point with out attacking their view personally.

I think we should keep every thing out in the open. So this is the PM I received a short time ago asking me to stop debating this subject, despite my constant apologies, despite my constant acknowledgement that perhaps the 1 loft birds did not help you win the section and despite me praising your flying abilities and loft management skill you still insist on hounding me. Why are you stalking me? One comment, one time, let it go. You are the manager of a 1-loft race, yes, but that does not mean that you can stop me or any 1 else talking about 1-loft races. It is a shame because this subject will probably get locked or wiped and there are issues that some of us want to talk about.

As a member of the RPRA and using the luxury of freedom of speech I would like to ask in a poll how other members of the RPRA feel about the possibility of 1 loft races taking part in other races (clubs, feds, Nationals) and flying for prizes and honours. This is a completely new type of racing, which may or may not change the goal posts or alter the size of the pitch etc and warrants mature discussion and opinion without making it personal to any individual or organisation and what ever the out come may be it still does not change any thing but it would just be nice to know how the majority feel.

good idea. I will add poll, what should the options be? Does the poll have to be a new thread?

that it may be but should it be allowed in normal races?

I agree with you to a point superstar, yes you certainly do not want a follower especially where we live but my thoughts on preparation have changed. One thing that I enjoy is exploring and talking about the wonderful spectacle of pigeon racing. The amazing things that they do and the times when they do things that challenge our belief. It is not Black and White. There are times when a cause could give an effect many years later, so that what happens with a yb could affect it as an old bird perhaps. I believe that a pigeon does not need to be taught how to navigate, that great gift they already have, Just think about the millions of examples including when I stray comes to your loft and is then tossed next day 50 miles away and comes back. I have done it many times. That stray has not been taught to fly to your loft yet it knows how to do it. I do not think that it is completely the education that you give to a bird but rather the bird it self. Yes of course their will be extremes either way; if you cut its wings off then it will not come home but how much of a birds ability is down to our influence? What about when some one takes a retired bird out of the stock loft and it wins a race? Natural ability has allowed that to happen. And I know it has been done. It is based on my decision that I believe that a bird has the ability combined with the fact that I want birds with that ability that has influenced my training peroration for the national races. I am not the first to practise this method as I think that the late great Jim biss followed a similar thought by which he did not enter his yearlings with the nationals choosing to send them with the fed instead to keep them safer and closer to home. I have visited the Deweerts and if ever there was an example of going against conventional thinking that’s the place, their preparation methods opened my eyes. I won’t go into it now but it is a long drawn out process over many years before they actually compete for real yet they have belief and confidence in their birds which proves right time and time again. Slightly off track but still relevant, remember when we were kids and we would all train the birds in a cycle wheel direction at all points of the compass and then some one said ‘why do this?’ lets just train them on a line of flight. So based on all this My training preparation is all about trying to keep the birds as close to a home line as possible with a club/fed offering the truest line I can and also trying to keep the birds as safe as possible with safety in numbers. They will still get fit and I am not testing their ability to break. With all the hawks about especially over the forest of dean and severn estuary I want to minimise the chances of my bird being hit by hopefully being in a kit giving better odds of surviving for the big race. If they were to go with the severn valley fed then they would as you say have to break and fly on their own at risk for no real gain. After all this I can then deliver them to a national, fit and ready to be tested for real and if they should succeed then this will be bred into the next generation adding to the evolution. If you want to see what I mean about navigation then read this article about the truly remarkable swift. http://www.iprr.co.uk/cms/?news=917

superstar, I do not fly with the severn valley, as you know i like to fly the big uns and i do not think that the severn valley because of the drag would give the best preperation for my birds (just my view) We fly in the same club and you and i both know how difficult it is to win the Hereford fed because of drag. Steve or stuart,(i think) I am not discounting this type of thing completely, i am mearly asking if it is fair and should it be allowed because it is a new concept. If we all say its good, good for the sport and lets execpt it, then great i am all for it, but please lets talk about it and not just enforce something. The members of the big clubs should be allowed to decide if they are happy via talking or voting to let a one loft race join them. Hypothetical If Europa one loft were to ask to fly the birds for fed honours with the new north road fed for example then would it be reasonable to consult with the members first. ?

Thankyou hepste for trying to highlite that this is supposed to be a debate, so if we can try and keep it that way today please without personal insults. The above quote is a very good example of the use of drag, I have done it myself to test the theory with 12: 8-10 week old squeakers flying 100 miles with the club in their first race i scored 6th club and got them all back. They were ranging well prior to this and had about 3 10 mile tosses. How did i know they would do it? Because I knew they had the fitness and I knew they would stick together into the area and then they would find their way home once they started to split. Drag. The whole of my training and racing has evolved based on this fact 'drag' My old birds have received no training this year and yet they are holding their own because they have the fitness and drag will bring them into the area. Last year my yb team had hardly any training because they had the fitness around the loft and then drag brought them into the area. Sprint racers should be aware that the birds will stick together into an area then split, they have flown together. You should also be aware that you could have 20 birds go fairly close by your loft, 10 yours 10 some one else’s. One bird may split off and land and the others keep going eventually coming back but being a few minutes behind. I have seen this many times and others must have seen it too. It is possible that this could happen on a large longer race with your birds being some where near and then only one breaking off and the others going slightly wider bringing them 20 or so minutes behind. I have said it before but I will say it again its drag that makes it so difficult for us in the international races because we do not quite have enough birds to work together away from the main European drag which is why Dennis fords performance last year was so good and noted. I am not 100 % sure but i think that the welsh national birds are not liberated from tarbes with the CSCFC because they do not want the race influenced by drag. I think i am wrong to use an example of the one loft birds flying into the Malvern club because they are all flying into a small area so it makes no real difference, there is just a drag into the area then they split. I think that if you say i am 100% wrong then you are saying there is no such thing as drag. What about clashing is that not something to do with two races coming together and creating a drag into the more dominate area?

There you have it, you have results to prove me wrong so i am willing to conceed that i may be wrong. Its been a good day and very entertaining for the most part, its kept the forums interesting, we should be congratulated for that at least. I may not see you or jeremy at marking because its my sons birthday but i am sure you or jeremy will be out to beat my massive 22 bird send on saturday. May the best bird win. All the best to you both. Mike Link

I deleted the post because it was a computor error and just repeated what i had already said. Right then Mr P Smith, with regard to your manners, I am referring to the way that you address me and the way that you cannot put your point across without swearing and trying to insult me. Would you still speak to me in such an aggressive way if we were to have a proper conversation face to face? Where you could see on my face the way I re-act to what you say. With regard to mob flying, 24 mins is nothing when it comes to a long distance. Are you trying to say that the bird flew the whole way on its own always 24mins ahead? It could have been with 50 other birds from the one loft race right up until 50 miles when the other birds got tired or slowed up. It could have had an easy time for the first 350 miles slip streaming other one loft birds or any other scenario that I can invent in my head or it could have flown the whole way on its own. The problem here is that none of us really knows what happens during a race but some others and I think that the amount of birds that you send helps. You are perfectly entitled to disagree with me but there is no need to threaten, bully or intimidate me into agreeing with you. If you or any one else makes a good point then I can be swayed in my thinking but at the moment I have not really heard a logical defence against what I am saying.

I have to admit Soontjen, as much as it pains me because you have got my hackles up, I admire your club for taking the challenge on. Your club members must be commended for their embrace of the One Loft Race Birds into the club. I am sure that there are many clubs and flyers who despite possibly saying they would welcome the challenge would probably not allow it if it presented its self. So as a club you should be proud that you embrace the best competition. Now all you need to work on are your manners.

Soontgen (We have already had this chat on an other forum) I did send 35 birds on Saturday (once in all the time i have been racing) because I have not lost many birds like I do normally, I was late to start racing and I have missed races to which meant that I was in an unusual position of having too many birds, which needed a race. So I sent them. This does not happen a lot and as you seem to know me and possibly race in my fed then you will be aware of what I have achieved with just two birds before now. Yes I had a good result, which I was embarrassed about which I apologised for having due to the un-fair advantage on birdage numbers. I admit that I had an unfair advantage just as I think that the one-loft birds have an un-fair advantage in a race. You know my name as Mike Link of Link Bros. I would be interested to know your name and your reason for making snide comments. Where is the basis for you thinking I am jealous and what of. I am trying to engage in mature debate.

I think it is very difficult to fly against a mob week in, week out. I am not saying it can not be done but it is difficult. It does affect the morale of novices. I believe that drag has a factor in races. I believe that when you increase the British entry for the internationals then you help some one in Britain (they are still a worthy winner and a hero of mine). The Belgium’s and Dutch enjoy a massive birdage luxury in the internationals. I believe that the more birds that go up in a race then the easier it is. Safety in numbers, and slipstreaming just like cycle racing. It is easier to get birds home in a race of 1000 than 100. I am not faring as well on an other forum with this topic and to keep you all in the loop it has been highlited that i dominated my club result on saturday while mob flying. Yes i did and i am sure if i asked some one too vouch for me they would say that i did not want the result published as i felt i had an un fair advantage due to the number of birds i sent. I was embrassed and i did not expect it. the birds seemed to be motivated. It could have course gone wrong as some times motivation can back fire. It has also been pointed out that i have entered 22 birds with the NFC on saturday. Again i do not deniy this. I have so far not had many races and find myself with a lot of birds that need to be raced. It does pain me to send 22 as it was not cheap and i will probably not even see the race as i am at work.