Protection for buyers

[kaybee]

thought you were volunteering to receive the mail.

[Guest]

My personal opinion is that buying & selling are the sole responsibility of the two parties involved.

 

Trying to shift some responsibility onto others, for example the staff at the paper where the crook placed the ad, cuts across the golden rule 'buyer beware'.

 

I also think it is a very difficult subject, because as one member has already admitted, we've all been shafted at some time.. there are so many scams on the go it is pretty difficult not to fall for at least one of them. Homework is key, when I started up again I fell for a Ron Williamson advert because the Irish Ace was stuck in my mind, he used to have Kirkpatricks, these supposedly were from him, but it was an English address, and the transfer was signed not by the advertiser, but one 'R Hill'. And of course the Irish Ace wins with Busschaerts.

 

And even the big studs are guilty. Again when starting up and again looking for Kirkpatrick pigeons, saw an advert around 40 pigeons priced £35-£50 each. I had £150 and was looking for 3 pairs. Phoned up a week or two after the advert .. all gone, and no more being advertised, only thing we have left are stock, but these are £75 each. Bought matched pair. 6 weeks later, another advert  30 pigeons priced £35-£50 each....... followed by another.

 

The only protection for buyers I know of is paying by credit card. There a third party guarantees to refund your money if the transaction is not all it seems.

 

 

[Guest slugmonkey]

A lot of this sounds like laziness on the buyers part or maybe just ignorance  when buying on the net you should ALWAYS know who you are buying from and exactly WHAT you are getting

A few years ago I saw a bird on one of the auctions and realized that it was a bird I had sold a year or 2 before but after looking I realized it wasnt the bird only a bird BANDED with the band off of the bird I had sold, the one I sold was a bar and this was a check I Immeaditly called the site director and he promptly removed the bird and barred this guy from the site he was also banned from 2 other sites as well

[Guest]

I can't believe that when there is a method that will improve the chances of people not being conned that people are speaking against it, it;s like saying if you get conned it's your fault. When you get mugged in the stret Bruno I'll be telling you it's your own fault beacause you didn't go to self defence class. You thought you could alays defend yourself with the pen, becasue with the stance you and slug are takig the pen will be mightier thannthe sword.

Presumably Bruno Slug you thought it was Dovescot's own fault when Coxy conned him???

[EAGLEOWL]

i advertised some b,ham rollers for sale,mainly to cut down on stock,ihad 6 callers to the house,sold about 30 birds. two weeks after that i had the lot nicked ,over 70 birds+baskets.now if i sell anything itell them over the phone that i want id proof,passport,drivers licence,then when they come i take a photo of them ,and the car they come in,and make a point of telling them if the dog dont get em the gun will, HOPE YOUR READING THIS NUD.

 

solo i have seen this so many times ,when you let people know what you got you run the risk of a scum bag calling ,if you got it someone wants it (for free).

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

I wasn't seeking to apportion blame, Albear, I was pointing out that it is the seller & buyer's responsibility, and no one else's. People are even reminded of that basic fact in Webmaster's Introduction on For Sale Board. Basic fact. Nothing to do with my opinion or pens.

 

I am all in favour of additional safeguards, but if this site adopts further safeguards, and should those fail to prevent another case of mis-selling, who is to be held responsible or in your own words who is to blame? Is pigeonbasics going to be blamed if a transaction goes wrong?

 

In my own case, was the BHW to blame because it was the vehicle thro which I was introduced to these sellers? Would it accept blame? Not likely. As I've stated, my fault, my loss and no one to blame except me.

 

  

[Guest]

Bruno I'm not and have not suggested the site is to blame or the BHW. I am saying that when I agree to purchase through whatever medium I should not be told if you're conned its your fault buyer beware is a saying and has no subatnce in law when someone perpetrates a fraud on another person. The fault is clearly at the door of the conman, no other person, the site and the buyer falls prey to him it does no good for the site or buyer.

How simple can I spell it out, it is not making work for anyone on the site, it is purely saying to any seller put your details here, and in extremes where a fancier can show he is at risk if he puts his address he can put details of the birds what club they have won in and what fed. This information does not make for a lazy buyer as the slug suggests but for a pro active buyer who by communicating with other members of this 'community' will be able in many instances to verify the correctness of what is being sold.

[DOVEScot]

i advertised some b,ham rollers for sale,mainly to cut down on stock,ihad 6 callers to the house,sold about 30 birds. two weeks after that i had the lot nicked ,over 70 birds+baskets.now if i sell anything itell them over the phone that i want id proof,passport,drivers licence,then when they come i take a photo of them ,and the car they come in,and make a point of telling them if the dog dont get em the gun will, HOPE YOUR READING THIS NUD.

 

Sorry to hear that, did you advertise them on the site or in a paper classifieds.

Sadly we are all at risk of being turned over someway. but the simple truth is we have to supply basic details for the buyer to post payment or collect the items for sale wherether it be a pigeon or a rolls royce or you meet some where and arrange changeover and that brings it's own risks as well :-/ :-/ :-/

[Guest TAMMY_1]

 

agree albear ,but then the seller will always state breeds winners ,then theres the security side of things ,placing names and addresses is not a good idea in todays world of fraud also for the unwanted attention there lofts might gain when advertising birds of top quality ,

 

 

agree with what you say about security aspect, if you are giving out your address it should be done in private , not put on a public internet forum, not just talking about selling birds on here but overall it is madness to have it displayed openly on the net.

[Guest]

...  I am saying that when I agree to purchase through whatever medium I should not be told if you're conned its your fault buyer beware is a saying and has no subatnce in law when someone perpetrates a fraud on another person.....  

 

.... it is purely saying to any seller put your details here ....

 

 

Second point first: it wouldn't have stopped this particular con. Buyer had the sellers' details, and no-one could really vouch in advance for the birds, where they came from or their condition. DoveScot's description of Coxy's 'loft' for example, sounded to me like a holding pen used by a middleman, buying from one person at £1, and quickly selling onto another at £3, tho not necessarily in that order.. and maybe the flow of cash was only one way..  always into the middleman's pocket.

 

First point: but the Law basically does say its your fault, Albear. Buyer beware is the english translation of the Latin name for the concept:-

 

Caveat emptor - buyer beware. This is a general rule that it is up to the buyer to find out if what they are buying is what they want. Consumer regulations require certain information to be disclosed to consumers and insurance contracts are covered by the uberrimae fides - but many types of business contracts are covered by the caveat emptor rule.

 

True you have legal remedies, but the basic principle is still that the potential buyer has got to be very careful.....

[DOVEScot]

 

 

Second point first: it wouldn't have stopped this particular con. Buyer had the sellers' details, and no-one could really vouch in advance for the birds, where they came from or their condition. DoveScot's description of Coxy's 'loft' for example, sounded to me like a holding pen used by a middleman, buying from one person at £1, and quickly selling onto another at £3, tho not necessarily in that order.. and maybe the flow of cash was only one way..  

 

First point: but the Law basically does say its your fault, Albear. Buyer beware is the english translation of the Latin name for the concept:-

 

Caveat emptor - buyer beware. This is a general rule that it is up to the buyer to find out if what they are buying is what they want. Consumer regulations require certain information to be disclosed to consumers and insurance contracts are covered by the uberrimae fides - but many types of business contracts are covered by the caveat emptor rule.

 

True you have legal remedies, but the basic principle is still that the potential buyer has got to be very careful.....

 

Fourth point first, yes buyer has to be careful but the place that allows the adverts has to have guidelines to protect buyers and sellers

 

First point second, I thought it was an 8x6 holding loft in the fact it had no way for birds to be let out. traps stalls etc. Through the small mesh panel there were no signs of nesting boxes or perches. Coxy is not a capatalist that buys for a pond and sells for a profit, he is a prolific con man

 

Third and forth point third, he is not a business so you are dealing with a private sale so you have different consumer rights, Coxy new exactly what he was doing,

If he sent nothing then I would have a clain on Paypal

He sent part allowing for courier to be questioned

He sent as a gesture of good will similar items to what I ordered so making it harder to take him to small claims court, because it would draw out in arguments and make it a worthless task

 

I and other members would like to buy pigeons from members on the site, with the knowledge that when we send our money we get what we paid for. And if a sale simply goes wrong we can ask them to explain, but if we are conned then that member be highlighted to protect other members from the same fate

 

So Caveat emptor when dealing with conmen ;D or conmen beware your details will be posted for all to see

[Guest]

DoveScot, I think you are mistaken on all counts: for example many shops display other people's 'for sale' adverts in their windows. Common sense should tell you that the shop has no reponsibility in the goods or services these people offer in those ads, it is not the shop that's providing them.

 

What has happened to you in the Coxy case is a straightforward breach of contract. The goods you received were not the goods you ordered. That has nothing to do with consumer law, or 'crookedness' for that matter, its pure Contract Law. You could still push for what you ordered to be delivered, or a return of your cash, or a settlement in lieu of contract fulfillment, e.g a rebate on what you paid..

[Guest]

Bruno you have gone way off point, whether you were conned on the BHW is not relevant. The whole purpose of my request is to help fanciers research any fancier who posts on here. to try and reduce the chances of being sold a pup.

Are you arguing that you don't want to have a better system that costs nothing? That hurts no one but the possible con artist. That's it in a nut shell , no hypothisiis about legal standing, just simple practicality. For some one who has obviously a very good intellect, you seem to want to complicate a simple solution

[Guest]

I am all in favour of additional safeguards, but if this site adopts further safeguards, and should those fail to prevent another case of mis-selling, who is to be held responsible or in your own words who is to blame? Is pigeonbasics going to be blamed if a transaction goes wrong?

 

 

 

  

 

Sorry Bruno missed this, nothing changes, someone is conned as now whether you have it or not, but if you have it you have a chance of stopping the con.

[Guest]

I see both your posts, Albear. I think I am trying to say that I am unhappy with your proposed solution because I believe it won't stop mis-selling. And if additional safeguards were brought in and mis-selling happen again, it will certainly damage the site's reputation and possibly everyone else on it.

 

The cast-iron way of stopping mis-selling on this site is quite simply to stop all general sales.  There's been more than a few comments on the sheer number of sales being posted on it mostly by people who appear to have joined for that express purpose.

 

It is of course only my personal opinion, but I think we should go back to what we seem do best and without any bother .. special sales only, for good causes.  

[Guest slugmonkey]

I am sorry that I came off sounding as I thought it was the buyers fault as obviously its not I was just trying to instill the thought that I had to learn the hard way " everybody isn't as honest as you " and by you I mean yourself!

There is a whole world full of people whose sole purpose is to seperate you from your money with as little trouble as possible !!!

How many lottery's have you won on the internet that you never entered, how many pretty girls from Russia just happened to see your name in a chatroom and thought you looked interesting and wanted to talk, I have a whole bunch of rich relatives in Nigera and one of them wrecks a car or crashes a plane about once a week ( and I know because I am the sole surviving heir and am gonna get 26 million dollars ) all I am saying is use a little caution anytime you are dealing with ANYONE YOU DON"T KNOW ON THE INTERNET !!! I got a friend that got skinned out of 10,000 and some really good birds he cashed a check turned over the extra cash so the guy could go buy some more birds from another guy, guess what check bounced birds and cash BOTH gone  

again I am not against anything that will help secure transactions on here and I feel sorry for your loss

 

[Guest]

Bruno, we are not agreeing because you are seeing something in my posts that is not there. I agree 100% it will not stop mis selling, the fraudster will always find a new way.............. my point is siple ths would be anothe safeguard an added tool for those buyers on here.

I keep trying to pull this thread back to this simple point. What are the implications for the site? the only one is that a seller must provide his / her details nothing else.

It alters nothing in terms of responsibility and it alters nothing if someone still gets conned. But it does help the seller if s/he wants to do more investigation.

Bruno you have also reinforced my comment about the glass being half full. You become negative and suggest stop all sales. Why? Because of this thread, if you felt that way you have had ample opportunity to propose that previously. I do have a lot of respect for you but I think you need to stop being so defensive I am not in any way attacking the site.

My suggestion / post is about supporting this site, it's not negative it's positive, it's about fine tuning, progress and if that happens the site improves and more people want to use it and enjoy it. The for sale facility is a great one for the members  and guests, the glass is half full and just needs topping up not emptying.

[Guest]

Slugmonkey agree with your last post, sadly there are very few in this day and age who have not been conned, I just want to have a further safeguard put in place that may help prevent a future con, at no cost to anyone but the fraudster

[Ian Gill]

Quite simply put its your money and ultimatley you are responsible for its destination in any transaction in life..if you decide to buy something and you accept the vendors description of the goods and the terms of sale enough to part with your hard earned cash and the deal goes wrong,how on earth is any website or magazine responsible for your loss ??

 

You parted with your cash, so the buck stops with you..ok you lost your money but like all else in life you bite the bullet,learn from it and move on..

 

 

[Guest j.bamling]

Quite simply put its your money and ultimatley you are responsible for its destination in any transaction in life..if you decide to buy something and you accept the vendors description of the goods and the terms of sale enough to part with your hard earned cash and the deal goes wrong,how on earth is any website or magazine responsible for your loss ??

 

You parted with your cash, so the buck stops with you..ok you lost your money but like all else in life you bite the bullet,learn from it and move on..

 

 

I agree with that !!

[Fair Play]

That's why it is so important to ask questions and if the seller gives vague answers steer clear it's your money spend it wisely

[jakjak]

Whatever we think we all know that at times there are people that will make statements to sell birds that are not true. The problem as I see it is that people can assume various identities and be a different 'character' on each alias. I would like to see with anyone putting birds for sale, their name and address and if they claim particular performances the name of the club that they put those performances up in.

OK they can lie about their address details but there's a fair network on here where it should in most instances be possible to identify the seller and if he's not identifiable, then there is great cause for doubt?

I would like the webmaster to introduce a rule where any seller must provide their personal details. The BHW has done this and I think it has removed a lot of ambiguous adverts

 

The best solution is a positive feed back section. This will identify trustworthy sellers. Also, dont buy a pigeon if you are suspicious!! Ask for more details, ask for pics, ask for his tel number, etc

I'm only aware of one 'con artist' on this site and he was found out (coxy) so your making 'mountains from molehills'

genuine sellers should not be 'tarred with same brush'

I have had nothing but praise from the fanciers i have sold pigeons to, and I thank them kindly,

Easy solutions my friend........

[DOVEScot]

DoveScot, I think you are mistaken on all counts: for example many shops display other people's 'for sale' adverts in their windows. Common sense should tell you that the shop has no reponsibility in the goods or services these people offer in those ads, it is not the shop that's providing them.

 

What has happened to you in the Coxy case is a straightforward breach of contract. The goods you received were not the goods you ordered. That has nothing to do with consumer law, or 'crookedness' for that matter, its pure Contract Law. You could still push for what you ordered to be delivered, or a return of your cash, or a settlement in lieu of contract fulfillment, e.g a rebate on what you paid..

 

Fourth point first, yes buyer has to be careful but the place that allows the adverts has to have guidelines to protect buyers and sellers

 

First point second, I thought it was an 8x6 holding loft in the fact it had no way for birds to be let out. traps stalls etc. Through the small mesh panel there were no signs of nesting boxes or perches. Coxy is not a capatalist that buys for a pond and sells for a profit, he is a prolific con man

 

Third and forth point third, he is not a business so you are dealing with a private sale so you have different consumer rights, Coxy new exactly what he was doing,

If he sent nothing then I would have a clain on Paypal

He sent part allowing for courier to be questioned

He sent as a gesture of good will similar items to what I ordered so making it harder to take him to small claims court, because it would draw out in arguments and make it a worthless task

 

I and other members would like to buy pigeons from members on the site, with the knowledge that when we send our money we get what we paid for. And if a sale simply goes wrong we can ask them to explain, but if we are conned then that member be highlighted to protect other members from the same fate

 

So Caveat emptor when dealing with conmen  or conmen beware your details will be posted for all to see

 

Bruno how can you say I am wrong on all counts, then you go off point and twist around things and look for loopholes in what I say, and answer with no relevance sometimes, copy something from the internet, cross reference posts to try and prove a point, then talk in a foreign language. If that does not work then you throw in your Moderators Hat and say you are beyond question, when I ask something specific, or just delete it before someone sees it if you are not happy with it or cannot answer it

 

Straight forward questions

Do want improvements to protect fellow members on the site on all issues?

Is the site rules set in stone and beyond changing?

Are moderators beyond question in their decisions and if so why?

 

 

[Guest]

Bruno, we are not agreeing because you are seeing something in my posts that is not there. I agree 100% it will not stop mis selling, the fraudster will always find a new way.............. my point is siple ths would be anothe safeguard an added tool for those buyers on here. I keep trying to pull this thread back to this simple point.

 

I think the disagreement is that I believe these additional safeguards proposed may create a false sense of security for buyers? A safeguard is something that prevents something happening. We are trying to stop mis-selling. You appear to agree that this won't.

 

What are the implications for the site? the only one is that a seller must provide his / her details nothing else.

It alters nothing in terms of responsibility and it alters nothing if someone still gets conned. But it does help the seller if s/he wants to do more investigation.

 

If we bring in safeguards which we agree won't work and another case happens, the implications for the site are simple: we will be loosely divided by some schools of thought into two groups: seen either as (1) a bunch of crooks or (2) likely soft touches for some easy money ..  

 

Bruno you have also reinforced my comment about the glass being half full. You become negative and suggest stop all sales. Why? Because of this thread, if you felt that way you have had ample opportunity to propose that previously. I do have a lot of respect for you but I think you need to stop being so defensive I am not in any way attacking the site.

 

First proposed it months ago both in a previous thread dedicated to sales on the site and in threads complaining about the number of people joining to sell things.

 

Take your point and its not the first time in real life walks that I've been seen as negative. Might look that way on the outside but the problem is I have a totally different way of looking at things. Your glass half-full half-empty for example is something I cannot see: what I see there in that 'concept' is simply a job unfinished.. got to know both what you want to achieve, and the job that'll do it.    

 

 

My suggestion / post is about supporting this site, it's not negative it's positive, it's about fine tuning, progress and if that happens the site improves and more people want to use it and enjoy it. The for sale facility is a great one for the members  and guests, the glass is half full and just needs topping up not emptying.

 

I know what you are trying to do, but this is not the solution, this 'job' won't achieve your objective it will have the exact opposite effect. Take advice from any security company and you will be told much the same: by publishing private details on the internet you are not protecting anyone, you are actually endangering the ID of everyone who uses the site in the way you've suggested, and you open up the floodgates to further abuses by making us seem soft marks.

 

Another post has gone up Albear, with which I agree. Perhaps overreacting here to one case in how many transactions? Are you prepared to expose all members to the risks which I have detailed, because of one case, however sympathetic we may be to the details of that case?

 

 

[Guest]

Bruno, I disagree, the guy who says I'm over reacting confirms my view point investigate the seller. How if you don't know who he is? He is aware of one con artist, what's that got to do with the price of fish, because he's aware of only one that makes everything OK, no need to check anyone lads and lasses it's official we only have one con artist on the site :o : :