Darkness system good or bad?????

[Mike Lycett]

Guarantee no problems racing OBs after racing them on the dark as youngsters.

 

Our Houdini has just won the West Midlands Region Sprint Champuion Award for 2005 (0-250 miles) as a yearling against 5,200 members - he won on the road as a baby on the dark in 2004.  Also, my mate Chrissy Little has won 2 x 1st SNFC at 440 miles and about 240 miles - both were on the dark. He also won 1st SNRPC at 560 miles only bird on the day this year & she was on the dark too as a baby

People look for an excuse for poor form - but darkness isn't it.

 

Regards

Mike

[Guest]

People look for an excuse for poor form - but darkness isn't it.

 

Regards

Mike

 

Question posed Mike was 'does it affect the birds'.  My point was simple and indisputable - it does. By interfering with the bird's circadian rythms, it retards the moult. The 'plus' posts (sterling performances) only bring one side of the equation to the debate.  I've already posted 'plus' that I could not fault darkness performance & physique. Now what of the minus points? For example (1) what are the typical darkness YB losses like, and (2) what are their average performances like, one good one for every ? duds?

 

I was involved in the SHU YB Stray arrangement for our fed in 2004... 70% of the birds were darkness, and most of them had less body on them than a typical street pigeon, and the minority natural YBs in the stray basket usually 'kept' better body.

[andy]

GOT TO AGREE TOTALLY WITH MIKE ON THIS ONE. AS LONG AS THE BIRDS ARE WELL RESTED CARED FOR AND MOULT OUT  PROPERLY DURING THE WINTER IE: NO STRESS.

                               ANDY M.....

[Mike Lycett]

Does it affect the birds?  Of course it has a physical impact on the pigeons. Agree entirely.   Makes them moult their body far quicker than they would do otherwise, but its for the better. We're racing youngsters in September that are like yearlings & only cast one flight. Compare that to these that are bald around the head and on their 6th/7th flight & the non-darkness brigade cannot compete. Which is fairer & which is crueler?  I'd say non darkness was more cruel myself. Others may disagree. We're imposing less stress on our birds by asking them to perform their work when they're in supreme health and condition.

 

You ask about losses?  What about losses?  We started the 2005 season in March with 42 youngsters and finished it with 39 - all raced the programme.  In 2004 we started with 43 and ended with 40 - all raced the programme.  Darkness isn't the reason for losses.

 

People overcrowd and keep pigeons of debatable quality with less than pristine health. These are the major reasons for poor losses. Do'nt get me wrong, anybody can have bad luck, get a smash or a fly-away & that's bad luck. What is it though when some lofts never lose a pigeon year in year out & others lose 'em all every season. Tha'ts not bad luck - that's management.

 

As for performances, well you're talking about the capabilities of every individual loft there, how good their birds are, how good the management is, how much effort they put in to getting YBs to race well etc etc.  I know full well that in our town I can't remember the last time a non-darkness pigeon won a race - but hey, that's what makes life go round.

 

Boing Boing

 

Mike

[Guest]

Very well put Mike.

Been only 21 I have learned the hard way baout pigeon fliers/fanciers. People are to quick to knock the man at the top. 'He's only winning because hes sending x amount of pigeons' ' You see the trouble with my yearlings is that they where on the dark last year, I wont be doing that again' the next season comes after they have had their youngbirds on natural, and what happens the same performances with their yearlings'

If a fancier has built up his team, his knowledge, his managemnet skills, no-one can take this away from him. If the other fanciers that knocked these people spent as much time on their pigeons trying to improve them maybe they would get closer to them.

Then to top things these top fanciers can send 30 - 50 pigeons to a race they then have quality in quantity. Anyone can keep 100's of pigeons but it does not mean that this fancier will automatically race. Also the fancier sending 50 pigeons is helping the organisation isn't s/he? As they have to pay for them.

reverse the roles of top class fancier (1) and one who can't seem to get a card (2), meaning fancier 1 sends 6 pigeons and fancier 2 sends 50 pigeons, I know who I would put my money on!!!

[Mike Lycett]

My mate Clive Yates in Tamworth is a fabulous flier-  a great pigeon man.   Locally his critics call him "lucky".  I was in his conservatory one day watching his cocks exercising. The'yd been off for 55 minutes - out of sight completely & then came back hammering it like there was no tomorrow.   Clive said to me "Funny Mike, you know...   The harder I work the luckier I get".

Food for thought perhaps??????

 

Gez - agree entirely

 

Mike

[Guest WINGS 04]

I AGREE AS WELL AS THIS IS WHAT IS GOING ON IN MY CLUB

[Guest]

I think its a poor day when anyone who asks about what is happening to the bird is called a knocker. I note that not one of you have posted anything approaching basic knowledge (or should that be interest?) of what takes place within the bird when it is put on either the dark or the light systems. Until you do, kindly refrain from childish sniping .... I'm an ex-railwayman and I've been slagged by experts... none of you come close.  ;D  

[Mike Lycett]

Bruno

 

I haven't been sniping....    Far from it actually

[Guest slugmonkey]

I do think you can get some stellar performances from YB's on darkness although I belive there is too little room for error what I have noticed is ther dark guys tend to be up and down in our club anyway give me a tough day and 10 rested and well fed happy undercrowded birds and I dont care if you use tanning lamps and cocaine I'll race ya

[Mike Lycett]

Slugmonkey

Can't disagree with you because that's your experience. Racing this system for 15 years now & we've found it to be by far the most consistent way of racing youngsters - again that's our experience.

As Bruno highlighted, of course it has a physical bearing on young pigeons. But, in our experience, we lose practically no pigeons & perform perfectly well. Therefore, the system is fine. My response was because Bruno raised the questions about darkness in relation to losses & form which, from our own experience we can't empathise with

 

Boing Boing

 

Mike

[johnny11]

Hi Rose

 

At work there is a hay barn and the ferals have young weaned off already.

 

John

[Guest]

(1) darkness birds certainly go in the condition ideal for racing. Is it right to send ybs that are heavy in a moult and totally falling to pieces. (2) Pairing up in December, how many wild birds you ever seen thinking about making nests then?

 

Mike raised point (1) too, Rose and I agree with you both. Personal opinion, but I think checking the natural young bird's moult condition before it goes to every race is a good double-check on the bird's fitness for race basket. Jimmy puts it well - make sure they have a coat and are weatherproof. Personally, if I don't think the bird is weatherproof - then it doesn't go, and that usually means its stopped, irrespective of the race programme.  

 

On point (2) Rose, was extremely surprised recently to see a 4/5 week old street pigeon on the deck... they do breed at this time of year but personally didn't think this youngster would survive the night. Again, Jimmy spoke of these early bred birds as on 'natural darkness', but they are basically natural, because their light / dark phases are correct for the time of year..  

 

 

[Guest]

Bruno

 

I haven't been sniping....    Far from it actually

 

 

Not aimed at you, Mike. Number of replies on the train of having a good girn at folks winning, not working hard enough etc. In my opinion, hardly a relevant far less fitting response, when asking for people's experiences, both good and bad, of the darkness pigeon, and specifically, on what the system does to the bird.

[jimmy white]

I FULLY  UNDERSSTAND YOU BRUNO ,IN WHAT YOUR SAYING, AND I REMEMBER SAYING THAT, ABOUT SENDING THEM WITH THEIR JACKETS ON, BUT THESE DARKNESS YBS ARE  , JUST THE SAME AS THE"NATURAL YBS"BRED IN DEC .ONLY THEIR SHIFTED FORWARD A COUPLE OF MONTHS, AND PUT ON ARTIFICIAL DARKNESS, BOTH THESE BIRDS WILL ONLY HAVE A BODY MOULT BUT CAST NO FLIGHTS, SO THEY ARE GOING TO THE RACES WITH LESS STRESS [bODY MOULT]AND BOTH THESE BIRDS, THE STREET PIGEON AND THE ARTIFICIAL DARKENED PIGEON, WILL STILL HAVE A SECOND BODY MOULT AFTER THE RACING , WHEN THEY HAVE PERFECT PEACE TO MOULT WITHOUT ANY STRESS, IT DOESNT AUTOMATICLY SAY YOUR GOING TO WIN , AS THEY STILL HAVE TO BE PERFECT SPECIMENS AND TRAINED AND MANAGED WELL. BUT I DO APPRECIATE THAT IF YOUR RACING NATURAL YBS, AT LEAST YOUR GIVING THEM A BREAK AS THEY MOULT,IF YOU READ ON ONE OF MY PREVIOUS POSTS  I WAS DOUBTFULL AT FIRST, BUT THAT WAS ABOUT 15 YEARS AGO, WHEN I TRIED BOTH SYSTEMS, AND AS OLD BIRDS FOUND IT MADE NO DIFFERANCE WHATSOEVER , WHETHER THEY HAD BEEN ON DARKNESS OR NATURAL, SO YOU CAN BREED IN FEB, AND SAVE 2 MONTHS GRUB [TIGHT SCOT]   :) JIMMY

[snowy]

dont really know, but all i have spoken to have said never again, natural is better

[Guest]

Thanks Jimmy. Bit I picked up about 'natural darkness' I'm sure came from one of your posts to Westy / Snowy (advice on pairing up).

 

My natural youngsters drop their 1st primary aged around 6 weeks (late April) and their 10th primary is up mid/end December.  My  natural youngster would be stressed for around 7/8 weeks max (acknowledging the point many raised of racing & training youngsters during their moult).

 

If I understood the darkness system correctly, youngsters do their body moult but retain their wing, dropping their 1st primary around the end of racing / training (September?) then moult out full wing (between September and end of December?)

 

If that is the darkness typical sequence of events, then none of it sounds restful Jimmy, and youngsters put on darkness endure 11 months of continuous stress against 7/8 weeks for a  youngster on natural. And its not done for the bird's sake either.

[Mike Lycett]

Bruno

 

Most interesting how different people have different opinions on same system. I'd say our youngsters encounter hardly any stress at all in the year of their birth. This would manifest itself in some sort of illness or being "under the weather".  We never have the slightest of health issues, so thatv tells me something fundamental must be reasonably right

 

Regards

 

Mike

[jimmy white]

I THINK THE POLL SAYS IT ALL :)

[Guest]

My feelings are that any stress shown with darkness young birds could be due to overcrowding the loft and not having efficient ventilation.

[Guest]

I agree with you 100% there. People hear about fancier x breeding 100+ youngsters then they think ' oh ill try that' then wonder why they lose 75% of them. One fancier i know breeds 100+ youngbirds but what most people dont realise is that he has a 30ft (aprox loft) just for these youngsters.

[Mike Lycett]

Agree with Jimmy.

 

The poll says 65% says it doesn't affect them at any stage of their life.   I wonder how many people who knock the Dark are speaking from their own direct experience?  If they have tried & comparatively switched then that'd be interesting because the health, vigour & performance simply MUST improve with the Darkness.

 

Regards

 

Mike

[Guest]

 

The poll says 65% says it doesn't affect them at any stage of their life.  

Regards

 

Mike

 

 

I note that there hasn't been any reponse to my question: what physiological changes take place within a darkness youngster? If none of you can answer that then the poll results are little better than a guess, and certainly nothing approaching an informed opinion... there's nothing concrete in here that I could use with any confidence to decide to go darkness with my youngsters in 2006.

 

On the subject of stress. How can the experience be said to be stress-free when the normal moulting period is compressed from 9 months into 4 months? The full wing moult is also taking place at the very time the bird is supposed to be resting & recovering from 8/9 races and when the body should be downshifting gears as autumn ends and winter approaches.

[jimmy white]

WHAT HAPPENS TO THE OBS AFTER RACING THE LAST 600 MILE RACE, THEY FALL TO BITS IN THE MOULT, SAME AS DARKNESS YBS    NOW YOUL PROBABLY SAY ,BUT THEVE GOT TIME, BUT NOT IF THERE STILL REARING LATEBREDS, IN WHICH CASE THE WILL HOLD THE MOULT UNTILL THEVE FINISHED REARING AND NOT HAVING TO BREED MUCH OFF THEM B4 THESE LONG RACES , YOU MAY WANT TWO ROUNDS OFF THEM.

[NANCYVIEWLOFTS]

been on the darkness for several years with sucess doesnt affect them as yearlings

the only drawback i se is that the feahters they are moulting now will stay with them as yearlings so maybe they are a bit weathered i know they moult a few unshed feathers at the end of the season but the magority have all been shed by end of june