Are we killing our show birds?

[Guest]

Dovescots post on another thread has prompted me to ask this question.From the start of the show season which for some of us starts as early as june we pile weight on our pigeons to achieve so called "show condition" or "body"as it is refered to,I am as guilty as the rest because if you want to win in the pen that is what you have to do,so you have birds doing minimum excercise consuming maximum calories,in humans we call it a recipe for obescity or heart disease in birds we call it "show condition" [now I know some people may say birds shouldn't be over fat and I know that but to me show condition is over fat!].I work with horses and I have seen at first hand on numerous occassions the damage over feeding can do but they are in the same boat,that is what is called "show condition"I do worry about the long term health of my birds though,suppose until judges start to be brave enough to place horses/pigeons which happen to be on the leaner side this trend will continue.What are other show fanciers thoughts on this?

[Guest TAMMY_1]

Dovescots post on another thread has prompted me to ask this question.From the start of the show season which for some of us starts as early as june we pile weight on our pigeons to achieve so called "show condition" or "body"as it is refered to,I am as guilty as the rest because if you want to win in the pen that is what you have to do,so you have birds doing minimum excercise consuming maximum calories,in humans we call it a recipe for obescity or heart disease in birds we call it "show condition" [now I know some people may say birds shouldn't be over fat and I know that but to me show condition is over fat!].I work with horses and I have seen at first hand on numerous occassions the damage over feeding can do but they are in the same boat,that is what is called "show condition"I do worry about the long term health of my birds though,suppose until judges start to be brave enough to place horses/pigeons which happen to be on the leaner side this trend will continue.What are other show fanciers thoughts on this?

 

well the chequered hen you gave me is so fat it can hardly fly up to a nestbox  ;D ;D

[Andkar Lofts]

could'nt agree more liz...you can probably put most of the breeding problems associated with show birds down to excess weight ....despite ,breaking them down

as soon as shows end ,in an attempt to get them into breeding condition ..

also probly cause of premature fertility problems as well..........

never expereinced it when racing ............

bearing in mind that the majority of show birds never fly out & therfore can't burn it off ,( some dont even have access to aviary )

[DOVEScot]

could'nt agree more liz...you can probably put most of the breeding problems associated with show birds down to excess weight ....despite ,breaking them down

as soon as shows end ,in an attempt to get them into breeding condition ..

also probly cause of premature fertility problems as well..........

never expereinced it when racing ............

bearing in mind that the majority of show birds never fly out & therfore can't burn it off ,( some dont even have access to aviary )

 

Is fattening them up, a false way of getting them to the size and weight, or is is the only way possibe to get them to show standards?

[ch pied]

chrissy , the other side of the coin , a very highly respected fancier over here , in the show racer scene , his bird's were more often out than in , except in the worst of weather , when handleing his bird's they did not carry any fat worth talking about , they were well bodied bird's , as a result of the loft flying , and the wright feeding method's , when i say loft flying they did a fair bit for show racer's , alas this gentleman passed away some year's back ,

his name was ( HARRY SPRATT )  doug mc clary , could verify as to the standerd his bird's were presented at the old comrades & blackpool

[Andkar Lofts]

 

Is fattening them up, a false way of getting them to the size and weight, or is is the only way possibe to get them to show standards?

 

yes it is duncan,to put what they call body on them which most judges prefer...( particulary in case show racers )...you're quite right does when handling give impression of a bigger bird .....

[Andkar Lofts]

chrissy , the other side of the coin , a very highly respected fancier over here , in the show racer scene , his bird's were more often out than in , except in the worst of weather , when handleing his bird's they did not carry any fat worth talking about , they were well bodied bird's , as a result of the loft flying , and the wright feeding method's , when i say loft flying they did a fair bit for show racer's , alas this gentleman passed away some year's back ,

his name was ( HARRY SPRATT )  doug mc clary , could verify as to the standerd his bird's were presented at the old comrades & blackpool

 

 

can confirm that ,was well respected on the show scene for quality /condition his birds ,seen them fair few times at both o.c . & b/pool

[DOVEScot]

 

yes it is duncan,to put what they call body on them which most judges prefer...( particulary in case show racers )...you're quite right does when handling give impression of a bigger bird .....

 

But is the standard impossible to reach without fattenning them up?

[chickadee]

 

yes it is duncan,to put what they call body on them which most judges prefer...( particulary in case show racers )...you're quite right does when handling give impression of a bigger bird .....

 

But when handling the birds, can they not tell the difference between fat and muscle? or is it impossible? ;D

[Andkar Lofts]

 

But is the standard impossible to reach without fattenning them up?

 

with some birds yes if they are what is termed lacking in body ....but obviously a judge who knows what he;s looking for can tell right away.....

also they tend to hold their " show condition " longer if carrying "body"........

[Andkar Lofts]

 

But when handling the birds, can they not tell the difference between fat and muscle? or is it impossible? ;D

 

yes they can,but in a show bird they are not looking for muscle ( as in a racing brd

in racing condition ) ....there is a marked difference when handling any of the flying breeds ...performing /competition & show type as in racers & show racers

the show type are " fuller " bodied

[Guest IB]

Too heavy is a no-no in any animal, including humans.

 

But there seems to be a totally different marking system in the racing pigeon shows. If your birds are 'heavy' then they are marked down. My personal experience is limited to local shows which I started going to again last year after 2 consecutive years absence, the first due to cancellation (bird flu) and the next, winter holidays.

 

I had taken a number of cards including 1st in the 2 years or so when they first started running. Only last year I heard the 1st in Class being congratulated on winning with the judge's words 'it could go straight into the race basket'. John Harwood marked my own racing hens down 3 years ago for being fat. To add insult to injury, he also said so in one of his BHW articles: "really class hens, but too fat." Last year following that 2 years break, I started showing again, again picked up they were too heavy, only got 1 'must do better' card  ;D (Highly Recommended).

 

So in the racing pigeon world anyway, I think shows are an excellent 'second opinion' on your birds' condition, i.e. race fitness, and that is one of the markers that you could win or lose on. Bit unrealistic when you think of it, fat-free and race fit in the closed-season?

 

 

[ch pied]

 

 

can confirm that ,was well respected on the show scene for quality /condition his birds ,seen them fair few times at both o.c . & b/pool

, thank's ,harry was a dear friend

 

 

[pjc]

its all down to feeding, not how much you feed but what you feed.

A show racer in condition should be solid muscle, not overweight and not feeling soft and fatty!

As they don't go out and excercise this has to be acheived by feeding the right food.

When mine are in top condition you can knock nails in with them they are solid muscle, and yes if they do go out they would fly as long as the racers.

If you have show racers that don't carry a natural body and you have to feed them up then they are no good, there constitution is wrong and the line needs to be broken.

It takes many years of breeding to form a family of pigeons that carry a naturally fit body.

Compare to humans, if you see an obese person there family are usualy in the main the same, its all in the genetic make up.

[Guest]

I've just stumbled across this thread, and I'm a racing man and do not enter shows, but found this particularly interesting! Please forgive my naivety, but do show birds not fly out? Or is it just certain types of the many variety's that there are that don't fly out? My knowledge on show birds is absolutely nil, but had assumed building a bird up for a show, was or would be the same as trying to prepare a bird for a particular race. Do the show judges not go off muscle when handling or are birds selected through the wires? If handling, surely they can tell what is muscled and bouyant to what is just overweight?

I'm not trying to pick a nark here, as I say, i'm a racing man with absolutley no knowledge of the show scene, but i'm extremely interested in this! Mainly because i'm interested in obtaining a certain type of showbird and would possibly enter a few shows in the future, once my knowledge was up to spec!

[pjc]

Dave, I used to fly my show birds out many years ago but there is no benefit in doing so. If they fly out they are at greater risk of doing them selves damage, breaking flights, bumping keels etc.

A judge can easily tell a bird that is muscled and a bird that is fat just as you can with racers, there is no difference.

It all comes down to the constitution of the bird, racers are no different, if you have a good family of birds they fly themselves fit and always feel in good body. If you come accross a bird in your team that always feels light, never seems to carry any body muscle then there is only one place for it as it is purely down to the birds lack of constition.

I started my family of show birds back in 1978 and for many years I would breed a few young that did not carry a natural body, these birds could be brought up to weight by overfeeding fatty grains but would never beat the birds that had a naturaly good body. These birds were removed and every time i bred anything that was lacking it went straight away. I have not bred a bird in the last 10 years now that does not have a natural body, in fact i now have the opposite problem at times in keeping the weight off even on a very basic diet.

 

Phil

[Guest]

Thanks for the response Phil, this is an extremely interesting topic, and thanks to Chrissy and all who have posted! I'm sincerely amazed at what I am reading. I can build muscle on my race birds by diet and exercise, building them up for specific and targeted dates and racepoints, and bringing them into the required condition is what its all about. What I can't get my head around is, if the show birds aren't flying out, how do you get the muscle tone right in time for the specific shows? Surely diet alone can't do this? Or is this the show peoples trade secret?  

[Andkar Lofts]

one method is similar to preparing for w/hood racer .....after show on return ,gradually break the bird down ,using depurative, then when next show due

gradually build it back up again with protein mix as you would a w/hood cock ,

some have to be fed individually in n/box as with all some greedy & have to be fed accordingly to prevent fat ,others dont eat enough so the reverse ....

hope that makes sense & answers query ....

[pjc]

If the constitution of the bird is right then the muscle will form with a high protein diet.

There is no need to break the birds down after each show and as I said your team need to have the same constitution so there is no need to feed birds individualy.

There are a lot of shows in a short period of time and if you keep breaking them down and building them up they will be finished before you get 1/2 way through the season.

[Guest]

Thanks Andkar and PJC, extremely interesting reading!  

[pjc]

Amanda did threaten to come to a show Dave, you'll have to come and have a look at em!

Show racers arn't a different breed they are just racers that have been bred to improve feather quality and body type.

[pjc]

nothing wrong at all with letting them out rose, just need to pick and choose your days and weather, they love being out but I personally don't see any benefit in letting them out.

The other thing with myself is that I show as part of a partnership and we are often moveing birds between lofts so would be a lot of messing around to let out the birds that would have been bred here.

 

Phil

[Guest]

Amanda did threaten to come to a show Dave, you'll have to come and have a look at em!

Show racers arn't a different breed they are just racers that have been bred to improve feather quality and body type.

 

Aye Phil, we will mate! I've been to the Doncaster Fancy Show before and found it very interesting! I never realized how many different types of fancy birds there actually were!! Some beautiful, some not so beautiful! But, you have to be careful what you say as the lads with the ugly ones get upset! LOL!

 

I'm fascinated by the not flying out and feeding for size though! This has been a thoroughly interesting thread. The show birds i'm interrested in are called Tiger Swallows, really beautiful they are, would they be able to fly out or would you recommend keeping in and diet? Andkar / Chrissy, anyone else from the Show fraternity for that matter, I would thoroughly appreciate your advice!  

 

[bewted]

 

Aye Phil, we will mate! I've been to the Doncaster Fancy Show before and found it very interesting! I never realized how many different types of fancy birds there actually were!! Some beautiful, some not so beautiful! But, you have to be careful what you say as the lads with the ugly ones get upset! LOL!

 

I'm fascinated by the not flying out and feeding for size though! This has been a thoroughly interesting thread. The show birds i'm interrested in are called Tiger Swallows, really beautiful they are, would they be able to fly out or would you recommend keeping in and diet? Andkar / Chrissy, anyone else from the Show fraternity for that matter, I would thoroughly appreciate your advice!  

 

 

i have only seen the tiger swallows on pics only,never in the few shows i have visited,but,agree with you dicky darky,very beautiful indeed !!!

 

                                     ted

 

[pjc]

now you are talking about serious colours/breeds!

Tiger swallows are named because of the colour, they moult out a normal colour, i.e blue, black etc and then every other flight is pulled to grow back as white, the same is done on the cover feathers to produce the even pattern.

The practice has been outlawed in many countries so pictures are all you will prob see.

Can't say I agree with the practice but beutiful results!

 

Phil