Guest IB Posted April 3, 2008 Report Posted April 3, 2008 John Ferguson submitted a Petition to Scottish Parliament on 23/7/07 "Calls on the Parliament to urge the Scottish Executive to investigate the public health risks associated with racing pigeons and to introduce measures to ensure that racing pigeon lofts are not situated within residential areas and that responsibilities be imposed upon the owners for dirt, damage and diseases to the public". Committee debate 6/11/07 Racing Pigeons (Public Health) (PE1068) The Convener: PE1068, from John Ferguson, calls on the Scottish Parliament to urge the Scottish Executive to investigate the public health risks associated with racing pigeons and to introduce measures to ensure that racing pigeon lofts are not situated within residential areas and that owners are made responsible for dirt, damage and public disease. A letter from Derek Brownlee MSP has been circulated to members. He points out that the petitioner's concerns are not confined to the petitioner. He indicates that one of his constituents has experienced significant stress as a result of activities related to the keeping of racing pigeons in his area and suggests that existing laws are not adequate to deal with the concerns that have been raised. Do members have any suggestions for how we should deal with the petition? John Wilson: The problem is arising more often, but racing pigeons are not the only issue—pigeons in town and city centres are also an issue. I would like more information on health effects, particularly from environmental health departments throughout Scotland, if that is possible. Different local authorities seem to take different approaches. I am thinking about how pigeon lofts are sited in Glasgow. The racing pigeon fraternity has a strong lobby that deals with the sporting aspects of racing pigeons, but if there are public health issues, we should certainly try to explore them. No matter what legislation is in place, it will not draw out the health implications associated with racing pigeons and other pigeons and whether people are aware of those implications. Rhoda Grant: It appears to me that adequate legislation is in place to cover racing pigeons. Obviously, there is an issue with wild pigeons, and I wonder whether there is some crossover. I would not be against seeking more information. I think that there is an association of environmental protection officers, which might be a good starting point. We could find out whether it thinks that the current legislation adequately covers racing pigeons and what can be done about the problem of wild pigeons congregating and causing nuisance and mess. Obviously, dead birds are monitored, but we can ask about the work that is undertaken to check for diseases in the wild pigeon population. Robin Harper (Lothians) (Green): It does not seem that we need to find out anything more about racing pigeons, as the legislation that is in place seems to cover them adequately. As long as owners obey that legislation, particularly that on keeping them in their cages when cases of avian flu are around, racing pigeons do not seem to constitute any more danger than any other kind of pigeon. If we investigate anything, it should be the wild pigeons that infest parts of our cities. I would not be against closing consideration of the petition. John Wilson: There may be a desire to close the petition, but I suggested seeking further information for a reason. I think that Rhoda Grant mentioned the disposal of dead birds. We would expect a reasonable pigeon keeper to check whether a dead bird was carrying any reportable disease and to dispose of that bird properly. Legislation is in place, but the difficulty lies in how it is applied. We can have all the legislation that we want on the statute book, but we do not know whether it is being properly applied or adhered to or whether racing pigeon keepers in particular are reporting problems to the environmental health services or other services. We should try to get that information and find out whether the current legislation needs to be strengthened. Rhoda Grant: I want to clarify something. I am not concerned about reports about racing pigeons, as it is in a keeper's interest to report what has happened to a racing pigeon and check things out. If a pigeon dies in its owner's pigeon loft, they will want to ensure that it was not from something that will affect the whole loft. I think that adequate legislation is in place to cover racing pigeons, but I am concerned that there is no cover for wild pigeons. We could be straying from racing pigeons to wild pigeons—wild pigeons could be causing nuisance that racing pigeons do not necessarily cause. Perhaps we could find out what checks are carried out on wild pigeons rather than racing pigeons. The Convener: I do not want us to race to a decision on this one—that is my gag for the day. There are separate issues involved, and I am reluctant to close the petition. I would like to know about the implementation and enforcement of the legislation and about the environmental health issues that John Wilson mentioned. We also need to deal with the impact of wild pigeons in neighbourhoods, which is the more persistent and obvious problem that everybody has. Also, there is the issue of folk being concerned that some of the measures that can be taken to deal with the problem can be excessive. Shall we explore further the points that John Wilson raised, or do members want to close the petition? We can return to the petition fairly quickly once we get a response on it. If we explore the issues that have been raised, we can keep an eye on it. Is that agreed? Members indicated agreement. [b]THREE pieces of evidence were called :-[/b] (1) Evidence from Spice 26/10/07 http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/business/research/petitionBriefings/pb-07/PB07-1068.pdf Briefing for the Public Petitions Committee Petition Number: PE 1068 Main Petitioner: Mr John Ferguson Subject: Calls on the Parliament to urge the Scottish Executive to investigate the public health risks associated with racing pigeons and to introduce measures to ensure that racing pigeon lofts are not situated within residential areas and that responsibilities be imposed upon the owners for dirt, damage and diseases to the public. Background The public health risks associated with racing pigeons [1] There are essentially three diseases which, if contracted by racing pigeons, would constitute a public health risk. They are: • Psittacocis (Chlamydophila Psittaci) • Salmonellosis • Avian Influenza All are considered to be uncommon in the UK, and each one, if contracted, would generally be expected to make affected pigeons ill, if not kill them. This being the case, it is unlikely that these diseases would be carried by otherwise healthy birds. In terms of the more prevalent bird-specific diseases, paramyxovirus (PMV) of pigeons is a virus belonging to the Newcastle Disease (ND) group. PMV is notifiable under the Diseases of Poultry (Scotland) Order 2003 for its effects on bird health, although there are one or two reports of very mild symptoms – conjunctivitus – in heavily exposed people. In October 2006, there was an outbreak in game birds near Edinburgh. In March 2007, the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs in the UK (Defra) published veterinary advice on methods to reduce the likelihood of the transmission of highly pathogenic avian influenza (HPAI) for the gathering and flying of pigeons. The advice includes a section on pigeon racing, and in addition, a risk assessment which states that “…there is an uncertain level of risk that infected pigeons may spread HPAI following infection”. In cases where feral pigeons have gained access to a property and have caused a potentially serious public health problem, such as pollution of a water tank, the local authority would be able to take enforcement action against the property owners to remedy the problem. Racing pigeons, on the other hand, tend to be housed in designated pigeon lofts. These are typically purpose-built and well separated from any household water supply and so pose minimal public health risk. It is estimated that more than 10,000 Scots regularly take part in pigeon fancying with clubs and associations existing from Shetland to the Borders. Regulations governing the ownership and keeping of racing pigeons There is nothing to stop someone keeping racing pigeons in their garden, provided there are no planning issues involved, [2] and provided a previous conviction does not prevent the person from doing so. The same would apply to the keeping of most domestic pet birds and animals. However, owners of racing pigeons have a responsibility to ensure the health and welfare of the birds in their care and to seek veterinary advice if they notice signs of ill health. Under the Animal Health and Welfare (Scotland) Act 2006, it is an offence to cause any animal to suffer unnecessarily. Pigeons kept in a garden would be classified as protected animals under the Act. In the extreme event of an outbreak of either Avian Influenza or Newcastle Disease, the Diseases of Poultry (Scotland) Order 2003 stipulates that all pigeon racing activities will be prohibited in the surveillance and protection zones around a suspect case because of the possibility of racing birds spreading the virus. The effect is to avoid, as far as possible, racing pigeon owners’ chances of encountering the virus. Legislation designed to protect the public from health risks and nuisance The Environmental Protection Act 1990 (as amended) creates in Scotland a regime of statutory nuisance. The definition of what constitutes a nuisance under Section 79 of the Act includes: (f) any animal kept in such a place or manner as to be prejudicial to health or a nuisance; (g) noise emitted from premises so as to be prejudicial to health or a nuisance; Local authorities are required to investigate complaints of nuisance under the Act so far as is reasonably practicable. If a local authority is satisfied that a nuisance exists, it has powers under the Act to serve an abatement notice to address the nuisance. The Antisocial Behaviour (Scotland) Act 2004 also contains powers for local authorities to apply to the courts for Antisocial Behaviour Orders (ASBOs) to help protect the public from nuisance. Action of the Scottish Government On 3 April 2001, the Scottish Executive’s Development Department (SEDD) (Inquiry Reporters Unit) adjudicated on an appeal case [3] submitted by a pigeon fancier who had applied for retrospective planning permission to erect a pigeon loft on a communal area of land in a densely populated residential area of Edinburgh. Amongst the objections to the construction of the loft considered by the SEDD was the concern that the loft could possibly attract vermin to the area. Although the SEDD dismissed the appeal, it did not do so on grounds of public health, concluding instead that the large size [4] of the pigeon loft had “a detrimental effect on the amenity of the residents of neighbouring properties.” Action of the Scottish Parliament There is a history of debate in the Scottish Parliament concerning the interaction between racing pigeons and birds of prey, particularly peregrines and sparrow-hawks, in Scotland. In 2000, Scottish Natural Heritage published research which included 25 recommendations for progress on this issue. [5] Furthermore, in response to a petition from the Scottish Homing Union, and at the request of the Rural Affairs and Transport and Environment Committees in the Parliament, SPICe produced a Research Note entitled ‘Racing Pigeons and Birds of Prey’ in January 2000 which addressed the issue of the predation of racing pigeons. More recently, on 25 October 2007, the Royal Society for the Protection of Birds (RSPB) Scotland published a Parliamentary Briefing for the Scottish Government on the matter. What is evident is that neither the SPICe Briefing Note nor the more recent RSPB Briefing contains any significant public health-related discussion with respect to the question of predation. Ian Lees Research Specialist 26 October 2007 SPICe research specialists are not able to discuss the content of petitions briefings with petitioners or other members of the public. However if you have any comments on any petitions briefing you can email us at spice@scottish.parliament.uk Every effort is made to ensure that the information contained in petitions briefings is correct at the time of publication. Readers should be aware however that these briefings are not necessarily updated or otherwise amended to reflect subsequent changes. footnotes [1] Much of the information contained in this section was provided by Dr Dominic Mellor, the Independent Veterinary Consultant to Health Protection Scotland [2] The Town and Country Planning (Scotland) Act 1997(as amended) gives local authorities the power to take decisions on applications for planning permission, including the power to revoke or modify an existing planning consent, and to require the submission of an environmental assessment to accompany an application for planning permission. The specific and extant planning legislation detailing restrictions on the development of pigeon lofts in Scotland, especially in terms of their physical characteristics and dimensions, is Schedule 1, Part 1, Class 3 (sections 1, 2 and 3) of the Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development) (Scotland) Order 1992. [3] Please refer to the Town and Country Planning (Scotland) Act 1997: Section 47 and Schedule 4. [4] The reference to the size of the loft is consistent with the list of possible restrictions referred to under footnote 2. [5] Report of the UK Raptor Working Group; Scottish Natural Heritage, 2000. (2) Evidence from Scottish Government 10/12/07 :- http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/s3/committees/petitions/petitionsubmissions/sub-07/PE1068A.pdf Public Health and Wellbeing Directorate Public Health and Substance Misuse Division T: 0131-244 2448 F: 0131-244 E: Kenneth.hogg@scotland.gsLgov.uk The Convenor Public Petitions Committee The Scottish Parliament Edinburgh EH99 1SP Your ref: Petition 1068 Our ref: 10 December 2007 Dear Convenor The Scottish Government I am writing in response to the petition by John Ferguson, which asked the Scottish Government to examine the public health risks associated with racing pigeons, to introduce measures to ensure that racing pigeons are not situated within residential areas, and that responsibilities be imposed on the owners for dirt damage and diseases to the public. In summary, whilst there are a number of biomedical hypotheses which might suggest a role for pigeons in contributing to human infectious disease or allergy, there is little evidence to support the view that they contribute significantly to the burden of illness in the population. The Scottish Government is however keeping the situation under review in case new agents emerge, existing agents evolve or exposure and/or host conditions change sufficiently to cause concern. Further information is provided at Annex A. Yours faithfully KENNETH HOGG Head of Division St Andrew's House, Regent Road, Edinburgh EH13DG www.scotland.gov.uk PE1068/A ANNEX A 1. While there a large number of pigeon fanciers in Scotland, there are few cases of zoonotic disease diagnosed as transferred from the birds to the pigeon handlers themselves. Pigeons and seagulls are often in close proximity to people and this may bring them into contact with human and animal faeces and contaminated waste materials. In turn, birds may be infected by, or physical carriers of, human pathogens. People who inadvertently ingest materials which have been in contact with, particularly, seagulls or their faeces are at some theoretical risk from contracting infection. In practice, however, the risk is considered low. For human illness to result humans would require to ingest an infective dose and in the normal circumstance there is limited opportunity for this to occur. There is little evidence that such illness is occurring in the general population. A further relevant consideration in assessing risk is the age and immune status of the individuals involved. Psittacoses 2. One of the main risks is psittacosis infection. This is uncommon in humans and can also be transferred from domestic birds in the home such as budgies and parrots. Psittacoses is an infection of birds caused by the bacterium Chlamydophilia (formally called Chlamydia) Psittaci. It is most common in parrots and budgerigars, however other commonly affected birds include pigeons and doves. Apparently healthy birds can shed Chlamydophilia which can then infect both other birds and humans. Infectious secretions in avian respiratory secretions or faeces can remain viable for several months. Transmission of the disease occurs mainly through the inhalation of aerosols, respiratory secretions, or dried faecal or feather dust, but oral infection or handling of infected birds are alternative routes. 3. Those most at risk are bird fanciers and owners of pet birds. Pet shop employees and others whose occupation places them at risk of exposure (e.g. poultry slaughter house workers and veterinarians) are also at risk. Because human infection can be caused by brief passing exposure to infected birds or their dried contaminated droppings, people with no identified occupational or recreational risk can become infected. 4. Often mild, but potentially serious, psittacosis usually causes influenza like symptoms, and can lead to severe pneumonia and non-respiratory health problems. Clinical presentations may be variable with fever, headache aching muscles and respiratory tract symptoms. Although the human form of the disease can be mild or moderate, it can be severe if untreated in elderly or immunocompromised individuals. 5. Figures are not available for Scotland, but there were 59 diagnosed cases in England and Wales in 2005 - the last recorded year. Of the relatively few cases diagnosed in Scotland in any year, perhaps 20% have a history of contact with birds. Allergic Responses 6. Allergic conditions of the respiratory tract are well recognized in those closely exposed to pigeons. The allergenic material is primarily derived from the feathers of the birds and presents as small airborne particles which may be inhaled deep into the lungs. The development of "pigeon fanciers' lung" resulting in depleted lung function is often found in pigeon breeders where there is significant exposure in enclosed areas. It is difficult to conceive of a situation in which there would be equivalent sustained exposure by the general public to racing pigeons although the possibility could not be entirely discounted. Bacterial Infections 7. Many warm-blooded animals and birds carry Salmonella although by no means all are human pathogens. Although we have uncovered nothing in the literature implicating pigeons in the spread of Salmonella infections, the remote possibility cannot be discounted where pigeons exist in close proximity to man or his food supply. The possibility of contamination of domestic and other water supplies is occasionally raised where pigeons roost within buildings. The risk of faecal contamination or even gross contamination which would occur were a bird to drown in the storage tank can be overcome by covering tanks within accessible areas. Protozoan Infections 8. Pigeons in common with other animals and birds have been found to harbour and excrete Cryptosporidium spp cysts. One Russian study found the organism in eight animal species including pigeons. There is an absence of any evidence to link cryptosporidiosis in humans to exposure to pigeons although theoretically, an infected bird could excrete into a water tank. In such circumstances, and assuming the genotype involved was infectious to humans, infection might occur. The infective dose is low. Fungal Infections 9. Aspergillus spp spores are common isolates from accumulations of bird droppings thus birds roosting or perching on ledges, balconies etc can increase local concentrations of these spores which are of respirable size. Access to the building via open windows or mechanical ventilation systems can then result. in human exposure. Exposure to Aspergillus spores is a particular problem for immunocompromised individuals such as those undergoing solid organ transplant or cytotoxic chemotherapy who may develop invasive aspergillosis often with fatal consequences. It is a significant risk in bone marrow transplant where invasive aspergillosis may prove fatal. Patients exhibiting an allergic response to Aspergillus spp spores may develop asthma or other allergic conditions of the lung. There are however, a number of environmental sources of Aspergillus spp spores and it is a common isolate from domestic environments where they are not considered to present an unacceptable risk to the vast majority of the population. Cryptococcus 10. Research from different parts of the world has shown Cryptococcus neoformans to be an almost ubiquitous isolate from weathered pigeon droppings. No case clusters of cryptococcosis have ever been linked to exposure to pigeon droppings. It would appear that the organism is common in the environment but not particularly common as a cause of human illness suggesting a significant level of human resistance. As with Aspergillus the immunocompromised population is most at risk although not exclusively, 8% of AIDS patients in the USA and Africa have developed Cryptococcus infection. Mite Infestations 11. Pigeon mites (Dermanyssus gallinae) can affect humans but prefer the avian host. Most instances of human infection have been linked to pigeon roosts near vents, windows, air conditioning units etc in health care facilities. Nuisance Responsibility for dealing with nuisance complaints, which could include pigeon lofts, rests with local authorities which have a duty to investigate complaints under the Statutory Nuisance provisions of the Environmental Protection Act (EPA) 1990. This includes powers to issue an abatement notice which if not complied with can result on conviction in a fine. There are however, no statutorily-defined limits to what constitutes a statutory nuisance. Each individual case requires to be investigated by an environmental health officer, who will then decide whether the law is being breached according to the specific circumstances of the case. The keeping of pigeons would be subject to EPA 1990 controls under sections "79(f) any animal kept in such a place or manner as to be prejudicial to health or a nuisance; 79(g) for possible noise emitted from premises so as to be prejudicial to health or a nuisance" and there are also options to deal nuisance under provision "79 (e) any accumulation or deposit which is prejudicial to health or a nuisance." In addition the location of pigeon lofts under certain circumstances will require planning permission. (3) Evidence from The Royal Environmental Health Institute of Scotland dated 14/12/07:- http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/s3/committees/petitions/petitionsubmissions/sub-07/PE1068B.pdf Ref:DPD/Conultations/07/042 14 December 2007 Public Petitions Committee TG.01 The Scottish Parliament Holyrood EH99 1SP Dear Sir, Consideration of Petition PE1068. Thank you for your letter of 7 November 2007 and the opportunity to advise the committee on this matter. I have enclosed the REHIS response to the petition, I trust that this will be of assistance to the committee when it next considers this petition. If the committee should require any more information regarding this matter or if it is felt that REHIS can assist with any petition in the future please do not hesitate to contact us. Yours sincerely Kevin Freeman Director of Professional Development PE1068/B Consideration of Petition PE1068. From reading the minutes of the previous discussions of the Committee there would appear to be two separate issues arising from this petition. Firstly that of the nuisance caused by pigeons kept in residential areas as pets or for racing and the nuisance caused by feral pigeons in the environment. After much discussion at the recent meeting of the REHIS Public Health and Housing Working Group it was felt that although there are a regular small number of complaints about racing pigeon lofts there is usually little or no public health significance. In fact the general opinion of the group was that due to the value owners place on racing birds the lofts are, in the main, very well kept. There are of course exceptions to the rule, but it was felt that there is adequate legislation in place to deal with these when they arise. Some individual cases were discussed and in particular the problem that pigeons will land on the highest point near the loft prior to entering the roost. In residential areas this can lead to the problem of increased fouling of neighbouring roofs. In one case this issue was resolved informally, with the owner of the loft agreeing to clean the affected neighbours gutter and roof on an ongoing and regular basis. It was the overwhelming feeling of the group that feral pigeons and the feeding of them by the public causes many more problems. One local authority reported carrying out several major culls of pigeons in recent years in order to control the population, however these have proved only to be a short term resolution as the population only grows again after the cull. The authority in question has investigated alternative ways of dealing with the issue of feral pigeon nuisance and is planning to implement a humane management system. This involves setting up a managed loft to which the pigeons are actively attracted. This approach would ensure that the dead birds and faeces could be removed and disposed of correctly, further it also allows for the control of the population by removing eggs from the roost. It should also be borne in mind that in order for this scheme to work it will require a significant education programme, firstly to advise businesses and owners of property of there obligations in relation to the installation of anti roosting measures and secondly informing the public of the implications of feeding feral pigeons. The working group view was that it be accepted that it will never be possible to completely eradicate pigeons from the environment, even if society wanted this, but the authority hopes that a sustained and humane intervention such as this should result in long term control of the population. The Royal Environmental Health Institute of Scotland (the Institute) has been in existence for over 125 years and has around 1,200 members the majority of whom are Environmental Health Officers working in that capacity for Scottish local authorities. The objects for which the Institute is established are for the benefit of the community to promote the advancement of Environmental Health by: • stimulating interest in and disseminating knowledge concerning Environmental Health; • promoting education and training in matters relating to Environmental Health; and • maintaining, by examination or otherwise, high standards of professional practice and conduct on the part of Environmental Health Officers in Scotland. Environmental Health Officers in Scotland are part of a graduate only profession and by virtue of their under-pinning academic education, professional practical training, professional qualifications and experience are well placed to apply a holistic public health approach to the education of the public and to the enforcement of a wide range of environmental and public health legislation. The Institute, which is Incorporated by Royal Charter, is an independent and self-financing organisation. It neither seeks nor receives grant aid. The Institute’s charitable activities are funded significantly by the subscriptions received from its members. http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/s3/committees/petitions/or-08/pu08-0302.htm#Col523 Committee Debate 19th Feb 2008 Racing Pigeons (Public Health) (PE1068) The Convener: PE1068, by John Ferguson, calls on the Scottish Parliament to urge the Scottish Executive to investigate the public health risks associated with racing pigeons and to introduce measures to ensure that racing pigeon lofts are not situated in residential areas—that would kill half the folk songs in Glasgow—and that responsibilities be imposed on the owners for dirt, damage and public disease. The committee has previously considered the petition. My instinct is that there is already enough of a legislative framework to address the issue. I have been an elected council member or MSP for more than 20 years, and have represented what are euphemistically called the urban schemes of Glasgow in which there is a fair preponderance of doo huts. I have not received many complaints about them. There is a legislative framework within which such matters can be addressed. Do members agree? Members indicated agreement. The Convener: Okay. I do not want to make a big do about the matter—I had to get that gag in.
Guest Paulo Posted April 3, 2008 Report Posted April 3, 2008 scare mongering god the labour government is such a set of arseholes. Shows what townies are like as well far too many posh stuck up fools who have never been in contact with a wild animal in their life. Dog crap is a great danger to public health lets ban the keeping of dogs in res areas eh. Hope the tits don't get in at the next election wasting public money arguing about this rubbish is an insult. But whats a few grand in public money when they are taxing the *expletive removed* off people with fuel prices and waging two wars that must be costing billions a year.
DOVEScot Posted April 3, 2008 Report Posted April 3, 2008 scare mongering god the labour government is such a set of arseholes. Shows what townies are like as well far too many posh stuck up fools who have never been in contact with a wild animal in their life. Dog crap is a great danger to public health lets ban the keeping of dogs in res areas eh. Hope the tits don't get in at the next election wasting public money arguing about this rubbish is an insult. But whats a few grand in public money when they are taxing the *expletive removed* off people with fuel prices and waging two wars that must be costing billions a year. The guy binging forward the bill is John Wilson Central Scotland / Scottish National Party The guy backing the bill Derek Brownlee South of Scotland / Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party The Woman opposing it is Rhoda Grant Highlands and Islands / Scottish Labour So your comment about it being a labour being "scare mongering god the labour government is such a set of arseholes" seems unfounded. It was a SNP member raising the issue and a Tory backing it :-/ The labour party may have made some cockups in your opinion but at least they have not come close to the devisation caused by the conservatives. Looks like the bill will be defeated, especially if it is backed by the anti working class ;D ;D ;D
Guest Paulo Posted April 3, 2008 Report Posted April 3, 2008 The guy binging forward the bill is John Wilson Central Scotland / Scottish National Party The guy backing the bill Derek Brownlee South of Scotland / Scottish Conservative and Unionist Party The Woman opposing it is Rhoda Grant Highlands and Islands / Scottish Labour So your comment about it being a labour being "scare mongering god the labour government is such a set of arseholes" seems unfounded. It was a SNP member raising the issue and a Tory backing it :-/ The labour party may have made some cockups in your opinion but at least they have not come close to the devisation caused by the conservatives. Looks like the bill will be defeated, especially if it is backed by the anti working class ;D ;D ;D If I had my way all politicians would be got rid of they are like lice on a pigeon. All they do is pick the pockets of the people they are paid to serve. Then pander to their own special interest groups to get elected. Got a job today to design and build a prayer room for work despite having no muslims working here. Fair enough if we had muslims working here and they needed somewhere to pray but whats the point otherwise. Fair enough thatcher screwed the north east and scotland up and I used to be a labour party supporter but that excuse as to why they are better than the tories is becoming a bit tired now as is fat gordans constant taxing. Look at Scotland you get free prescriptions which is a great thing and fair enough but it should be across the board for England as well. So why isn't fat Gord doing something about that????? I actually stopped getting my ashma preseceptions because it was costing me an arm and a leg a mouth despite being taxed to the hilt by paying NI, Income Tax and just about getting taxed on everything apart from breathing. Aren't the SNP mainly labour rejects who left because labour had become too right wing lol ;D ;D ;D Anyway a victory for common sense that the bill was chucked out
DOVEScot Posted April 3, 2008 Report Posted April 3, 2008 SNP were called the Scottish Tories at on time, Polititions will always look like they are ligning their pockets but it would be a sad world if we did not have any, go to some other countries that do not get a choice and see how they live. You then appreciate the chance to make statements like we all do and not get locked up, beaten or shot because we did, if it is that a bad country, why are so many trying to get into it :-/ Or worse still a country where one man decides "Keeping pigeons is now banned" no if's or but's :(
DOVEScot Posted April 3, 2008 Report Posted April 3, 2008 Rhoda Grant's my new hero Is that Rhoda Grant Highlands and Islands / Scottish Labour ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Guest Paulo Posted April 3, 2008 Report Posted April 3, 2008 SNP were called the Scottish Tories at on time, Polititions will always look like they are ligning their pockets but it would be a sad world if we did not have any, go to some other countries that do not get a choice and see how they live. You then appreciate the chance to make statements like we all do and not get locked up, beaten or shot because we did, if it is that a bad country, why are so many trying to get into it :-/ Cause we are stupid enough to give them free handouts for everything they could possibly want when we have some of our own people including old age pensioners who fought a world war so we could have our say like you say in your post living in fuel proverty and getting a crappy little state pension. Look at the Gurkhas quality blokes and good soldiers they fought for this country for years in World War 2, Malaya, Falklands etc yet our politicians screw them about with their pensions and don't let them settle here. You try and move to Aussie or the states Dovescot and see if they'll let you in will they hell. I filled the stuff in on one of these see if you can imigrate websites a few years back but they wouldn't have been with me being too young, plus I had served in a foreign military to be fair if I had done it properly it wouldn't have counted as I believe Aus is part of the commonweath still. I've got a skilled profession too. Plus I believe pigeon racing is popular out there as well Anyway I'll get off my high horse now and shut up cause this forums about pigeons and not politics. ;D :X
Guest IB Posted April 3, 2008 Report Posted April 3, 2008 I happened upon this by accident. Heard nothing about it and wondered if anyone else in the pigeon game in Scotland had? Luckily the petition is dead and buried [February 2008] but what worries me still is (1) the guy didn't put forward any evidence to support his inference of health risks associated with keeping racing pigeons and (2) the quality of some of the evidence the committee was presented with, particularly from the SE Advisor: for example that Red Mite is a mite carried by pigeons? Er, don't think so. SHU used to have a sponsored MSP. Wondered if they were warned that this was being progressed, and wonder why they weren't asked to give evidence to the Committee too. Luckily most of the Committee members were pretty pro-pigeon racing. Wonder also who and what was behind this petition?
Guest chrisss Posted April 3, 2008 Report Posted April 3, 2008 Cause we are stupid enough to give them free handouts for everything they could possibly want when we have some of our own people including old age pensioners who fought a world war so we could have our say like you say in your post living in fuel proverty and getting a crappy little state pension. Look at the Gurkhas quality blokes and good soldiers they fought for this country for years in World War 2, Malaya, Falklands etc yet our politicians screw them about with their pensions and don't let them settle here. You try and move to Aussie or the states Dovescot and see if they'll let you in will they hell. I filled the stuff in on one of these see if you can imigrate websites a few years back but they wouldn't have been with me being too young, plus I had served in a foreign military to be fair if I had done it properly it wouldn't have counted as I believe Aus is part of the commonweath still. I've got a skilled profession too. Plus I believe pigeon racing is popular out there as well Anyway I'll get off my high horse now and shut up cause this forums about pigeons and not politics. ;D :X served in a foreign military and could not get into the states [if you say that happened who am i to disagree] when i got a bit interested in bailing out of here the yanks had no problem with me serving in any of the forces that i was with[mind you the only jobs who were interested in me were security ;D ;D ;D]
DOVEScot Posted April 3, 2008 Report Posted April 3, 2008 Cause we are stupid enough to give them free handouts for everything they could possibly want when we have some of our own people including old age pensioners who fought a world war so we could have our say like you say in your post living in fuel proverty and getting a crappy little state pension. Look at the Gurkhas quality blokes and good soldiers they fought for this country for years in World War 2, Malaya, Falklands etc yet our politicians screw them about with their pensions and don't let them settle here. You try and move to Aussie or the states Dovescot and see if they'll let you in will they hell. I filled the stuff in on one of these see if you can imigrate websites a few years back but they wouldn't have been with me being too young, plus I had served in a foreign military to be fair if I had done it properly it wouldn't have counted as I believe Aus is part of the commonweath still. I've got a skilled profession too. Plus I believe pigeon racing is popular out there as well Anyway I'll get off my high horse now and shut up cause this forums about pigeons and not politics. :X I have worked in the States, I wouldn't like to stay there permanently, had the chance but turned it down. America is over run with illegal imigrants as well, there new mexico and arizona are like london or a grand scale. They are crying out for tradesmen in part of Australia, Lennut may even sponsor you :-/
ch pied Posted April 3, 2008 Report Posted April 3, 2008 the egit that proposed the bill, need's a kick in the swinger's , as does the seconder
sammy Posted April 4, 2008 Report Posted April 4, 2008 the egit that proposed the bill, need's a kick in the swinger's , as does the seconder thats the only politics that they would understand piedy ,nice one ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
DOVEScot Posted April 4, 2008 Report Posted April 4, 2008 the egit that proposed the bill, need's a kick in the swinger's , as does the seconder They don't have any ;D ;D ;D
Guest IB Posted April 5, 2008 Report Posted April 5, 2008 Think many of you have the wrong end of the stick on this: Not a bill sponsored by eedjit politicians, more like a malicious bit of propaganda by an eedjit member of the public who presented it as a petition to scottish parliament. Luckily the politicians we have aren't as stupid as some of the members here suggest - and they threw it out. I'll be emaiing it to SHU today.
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