The pectorals?

[Guest Vic]

One of the most important facts regarding pigeon racing, is the "conditioning" of the pectoral muscles, at the eleventh hour. Do some believe, the trait lies within the family of birds themselves, or can some some of us, "control" them with management?  (Whatever birds that we possess!) Vic.      

[superstar]

Management and the right sort of pigeon simple as that. A no good pigeon in the best hands will never be anything and the best pigeon in the hands of a fool wont win

[jimmy white]

One of the most important facts regarding pigeon racing, is the "conditioning" of the pectoral muscles, at the eleventh hour. Do some believe, the trait lies within the family of birds themselves, or can some some of us, "control" them with management?  (Whatever birds that we possess!) Vic.      

 

dont seem to be getting many answers vic, :'( , wonder if most fanciers actually know what the pectoral muscle is ;D ;D ;D, anyway, just a point of interest ,,on a post b4 i said the pectorial muscle was the largest muscle on the pigeon and was corrected [maybe right enough ] that the gizzard was the largest , i had allways though[ im an idiot and admit it ;D] that the gizzard was an organ , but true enough it is a muscle , but dont know if its the biggest , maybe your veiw vic, or anyone for that matter ;D

[Guest Vic]

 

dont seem to be getting many answers vic, :'( , wonder if most fanciers actually know what the pectoral muscle is ;D ;D ;D, anyway, just a point of interest ,,on a post b4 i said the pectorial muscle was the largest muscle on the pigeon and was corrected [maybe right enough ] that the gizzard was the largest , i had allways though[ im an idiot and admit it ;D] that the gizzard was an organ , but true enough it is a muscle , but dont know if its the biggest , maybe your veiw vic, or anyone for that matter ;D

 

 

 

I'd have said the pectoral was tha largest Jimmy, But I've never dived too deep in the anatomical side of pigeons.

 

[bewted]

pigeons with longer keels have bigger muscles usually and are the true long distance flyers,,,theres allways an exception to the rule,but that is just the norm from what is known in long distance !!!

[Guest]

Muscles will obviously play a big part in any physical exertion. If you look at a human sprinters muscular form it differs significantly to a marathon runners. And of course the right type must be there otherwise we would all be possible of becoming super sprinters or marathon runners. So i assume the same would be said for pigeons, those that have the right type of muscular build up for increased speed and/or endurance succeed, others just become also rans, except on blow homes of course!

[Guest IB]

I’ve black & white sketches of the pigeon’s muscular system. Not very good sketches but it is clear from them that there are a lot of muscles involved, not just the two in the thread. Here’s a good colour sketch showing those two muscles.  Major (Pectoralis) = downstroke,  and Minor (correct name Supracoracoideus) = upstroke :-

 

http://www.paulnoll.com/Oregon/Birds/Avian-Muscle.html

 

There are right and left Pectoralis, and it is anchored to keel, sternum and ‘wishbone’ and attaches to the crest on the top side of the humerus, the long bone of the wing.  

 

There are also right and left Supracoracoideus, it is also anchored to keel and sternum, lies behind the Pectoralis, and is connected by a rope & pulley system to the underside side of the humerus, the long bone of the wing. Old Hand wrote an article many years ago on this rope & pulley creating a ‘sawing action’ on the ‘hole’ it passes through (created by three bones coming together to form the shoulder joint) and he reckoned that was what caused the pain on long flights. Maybe another reason not to handle the pigeon after a long flight, and another ‘plus’ for ETS?

 

 

[DOVEScot]

No matter what muscle is the biggest you have to have the rest in in proportion and more important balance, there is no way a fancier could condition one muscle on a pigeon or rely on it being the major factor in deciding a good bird

A bird could have the biggest and the most perfect pecs in the world but if it does not have nostrils to fill the lungs to fuel these pecs with oxygen then it will stand no chance :-/

Good pecs are important but any muscle in the body is just as

[jimmy white]

One of the most important facts regarding pigeon racing, is the "conditioning" of the pectoral muscles, at the eleventh hour. Do some believe, the trait lies within the family of birds themselves, or can some some of us, "control" them with management?  (Whatever birds that we possess!) Vic.      

 

as this is the main muscle as to flying, i beleive in the "condition" of the pectorial muscle , like most muscles,  excepting the nostrils ;D,   can be conditioned for the" eleventh hour" off course the muscles must be there in the first place ,, but muscles can be[1] slack ,[2] tired , or spot on [,1] many a bird [especially yearlings ] could fly so many hours on the sat ,,or even return on the sun.maybe in bad weather  this birds pectorial muscles would be tired for the following sat, it would benefit from resting this muscle, missing a race or two, im sure an experienced flier , like vic would know   when this pigeon was ready  , to do a build up for a race [2] the slack muscle, is the complete opposite , handling" soft " even fat and stodgey[the only way i can explain ;D] this bird needs tightened up with excercise,[ 3] handling like cork ,,,,,,spot on [maybe even spot on,the keel ,,,,the form spot   in short, the birds pectorial muscles  can be" managed" to be ready for the race in hand  

[DOVEScot]

 

as this is the main muscle as to flying, i beleive in the "condition" of the pectorial muscle , like most muscles,  excepting the nostrils ;D,   can be conditioned for the" eleventh hour" off course the muscles must be there in the first place ,, but muscles can be[1] slack ,[2] tired , or spot on [,1] many a bird [especially yearlings ] could fly so many hours on the sat ,,or even return on the sun.maybe in bad weather  this birds pectorial muscles would be tired for the following sat, it would benefit from resting this muscle, missing a race or two, im sure an experienced flier , like vic would know   when this pigeon was ready  , to do a build up for a race [2] the slack muscle, is the complete opposite , handling" soft " even fat and stodgey[the only way i can explain ;D] this bird needs tightened up with excercise,[ 3] handling like cork ,,,,,,spot on [maybe even spot on,the keel ,,,,the form spot   in short, the birds pectorial muscles  can be" managed" to be ready for the race in hand  

 

Not disputing the above, but what about the rest of the bird, surely to are conditioning the whole bird not just the pecs

Is this the conclusion you draw when you handle a bird

 

The effect of various activity regimes on metabolism of pigeon pectoralis was examined by measurement of blood lactate following exercise, total lactate dehydrogenase activity of pectoral muscle, and proportions of specific isoenzymes of pectoral muscle lactate dehydrogenase. Sprint-trained birds had the highest pectoral muscle lactate dehydrogenase activity (1409 IU · g−1 wet tissue), while endurance-trained birds had the highest peak lactate levels (287 mg · dl−1, extrapolated from decay curves) and fastest half-time of the lactate response (4.8 min) following exercise, but the lowest lactate dehydrogenase activity (115 IU · g−1 wet tissue). Immobilization of one wing for 3 weeks following endurance training produced a marked increase in lactate dehydrogenase activity of the immobilized muscle, compared to that in the contralateral pectoralis and endurance-trained muscle. Aerobic forms of the lactate dehydrogenase enzyme (that favor conversion of lactate to pyruvate) predominated in pectoral muscle of endurance-trained birds, while cage-confined birds exhibited primarily the anaerobic isoenzymes. These results demonstrate that conversion of pectoral muscle lactate dehydrogenase isoenzymes, total lactate dehydrogenase activity, and half-time of lactate response after exercise is dependent on activity regime in pigeons. In this respect, pigeon pectoral muscle responds to training and disuse in a manner similar to that of mammalian skeletal muscle

[Guest Vic]

 

Not disputing the above, but what about the rest of the bird, surely to are conditioning the whole bird not just the pecs

Is this the conclusion you draw when you handle a bird

 

The effect of various activity regimes on metabolism of pigeon pectoralis was examined by measurement of blood lactate following exercise, total lactate dehydrogenase activity of pectoral muscle, and proportions of specific isoenzymes of pectoral muscle lactate dehydrogenase. Sprint-trained birds had the highest pectoral muscle lactate dehydrogenase activity (1409 IU · g−1 wet tissue), while endurance-trained birds had the highest peak lactate levels (287 mg · dl−1, extrapolated from decay curves) and fastest half-time of the lactate response (4.8 min) following exercise, but the lowest lactate dehydrogenase activity (115 IU · g−1 wet tissue). Immobilization of one wing for 3 weeks following endurance training produced a marked increase in lactate dehydrogenase activity of the immobilized muscle, compared to that in the contralateral pectoralis and endurance-trained muscle. Aerobic forms of the lactate dehydrogenase enzyme (that favor conversion of lactate to pyruvate) predominated in pectoral muscle of endurance-trained birds, while cage-confined birds exhibited primarily the anaerobic isoenzymes. These results demonstrate that conversion of pectoral muscle lactate dehydrogenase isoenzymes, total lactate dehydrogenase activity, and half-time of lactate response after exercise is dependent on activity regime in pigeons. In this respect, pigeon pectoral muscle responds to training and disuse in a manner similar to that of mammalian skeletal muscle

 

Most vets wouldn't understand the above crap,  mark my word! This must have been downloaded from  an avian super vets convention. Fraid! Nearly all of basic members have missed my point, except Jimmie. I have changed my way of thinking regarding pectorals, and if I was young enough to start all over again, the pectorals would be the do and end all, for success.

[Tony C]

I understand your point Vic and I understand the importance. Timing is all important, I just wish I was a master at it.

Breeds/type. As I only handle my own pigeons at various times throughout the week I can only talk about mine. All pigeons are capable of reaching this condition just that in some its more pronounced than others. You've just got to know your own pigeons.

I believe how to recognise and more important control this can only be learnt through observation & experience, not one or the other but both.

 

[DOVEScot]

 

Most vets wouldn't understand the above crap,  mark my word! This must have been downloaded from  an avian super vets convention. Fraid! Nearly all of basic members have missed my point, except Jimmie. I have changed my way of thinking regarding pectorals, and if I was young enough to start all over again, the pectorals would be the do and end all, for success.

 

Of course I downloaded it from the web, just like all the other downloaded posts that all the so called experts copy like they know what they are talking about.  ;D ;D ;D

Not copied, from my knowledge of muscle grouping

I don't think it as simple as some make out that the pecks are the only muscle that counts, I would say that the are one of the most impotant ones as it is a core muscle, without it the bird could not fly so yes it is an impotant one and as it allows it to FLY then it is the most important one, but then again so is the bicep an ipotant one for flying

Our pectorial muscles have not evolved much and if you study Darwins theory then they were what we used to flap our wings with, if you look at a pigeon skeleton it has the very same bone structure as ourselves apart fron the evolution part

[Guest Vic]

Dovey! You are going back a bit aint you? To the days when our forefathers could fly. LOL

Incidentally, Dovey.  I have had some very revealing pms from north of the border, saying that you have never raced a pigeon in your life, SURELY NOT TRUE?

[Mixxy]

 

if I was young enough to start all over again, the pectorals would be the do and end all, for success.

 

Pectorals only important if the bird is flying in the right direction, and knows where its home is!

 

 

[Merlin]

 

 

Fair play Mixxey,what you just posted covers a multitude,dont think that there is any one factor as regards make up of a winning pigeon,there are a lot of variables there,and its when most come together,or brought together by fancier, you get winners,and probably the most important one is "heart" in abundance,which in turn produces the will to win,I have had pigeons with pectoral muscles like small ropes along their keel,often beaten to loft,by birds with no apparent keel muscle. The most important and essential functioning to any athlete,and this includes pigeons is its airways.lungs,etc,if these are not A 1 most of the rest is baggage.

[DOVEScot]

Dovey! You are going back a bit aint you? To the days when our forefathers could fly. LOL

Incidentally, Dovey.  I have had some very revealing pms from north of the border, saying that you have never raced a pigeon in your life, SURELY NOT TRUE?

 

True never raced a pigeon but quite a few of my family have, but I have had pigeons nearly all my life, looks like some of your friends north of the border are whispering in your ear like wee kids trying to cause trouble, no trouble at all, never hidden the fact, no reason to   :(

Unless their is some other point you are trying to make Vic ;)

 

By the way I have never laid an egg but know all about the process ;D ;D ;D

[Guest IB]

 

Of course I downloaded it from the web, just like all the other downloaded posts that all the so called experts copy like they know what they are talking about.  ;D ;D ;D

Not copied, from my knowledge of muscle grouping

 

I must admit to being totally at a loss as to the meaning of that downloaded piece, or its relevance to this thread.

 

There are more than just a couple of muscles involved in flight, much the same as from my memory of Biology at school 'there are about thirty involved in a human walking' and I can't see how researchers can say with any certainty that a by-product common to any muscle action came from a specific muscle amongst dozens.

 

But I do agree with you that it is the whole pigeon that counts, not just a part of it.

[Guest Vic]

 

True never raced a pigeon but quite a few of my family have, but I have had pigeons nearly all my life, looks like some of your friends north of the border are whispering in your ear like wee kids trying to cause trouble, no trouble at all, never hidden the fact, no reason to   :(

Unless their is some other point you are trying to make Vic ;)

 

By the way I have never laid an egg but know all about the process ;D ;D ;D

NO OTHER POINT WHATSOEVER!  I can assure you  on that, cheers, vic.

 

[DOVEScot]

NO OTHER POINT WHATSOEVER!  I can assure you  on that, cheers, vic.

 

;D ;D ;D

[DOVEScot]

Quoted from DOVEScot

 

IB's version ;D

Of course I downloaded it from the web, just like all the other downloaded posts that all the so called experts copy like they know what they are talking about.    

Not copied, from my knowledge of muscle grouping

 

 

 

 

 

Good editing IB  

 

 

 

 

 

I must admit to being totally at a loss as to the meaning of that downloaded piece, or its relevance to this thread.

 

There are more than just a couple of muscles involved in flight, much the same as from my memory of Biology at school 'there are about thirty involved in a human walking' and I can't see how researchers can say with any certainty that a by-product common to any muscle action came from a specific muscle amongst dozens.

 

But I do agree with you that it is the whole pigeon that counts, not just a part of it.

 

 

Origonal version

Of course I downloaded it from the web, just like all the other downloaded posts that all the so called experts copy like they know what they are talking about.  ;D ;D ;D

Not copied, from my knowledge of muscle grouping

I don't think it as simple as some make out that the pecks are the only muscle that counts, I would say that the are one of the most impotant ones as it is a core muscle, without it the bird could not fly so yes it is an impotant one and as it allows it to FLY then it is the most important one, but then again so is the bicep an ipotant one for flying

Our pectorial muscles have not evolved much and if you study Darwins theory then they were what we used to flap our wings with, if you look at a pigeon skeleton it has the very same bone structure as ourselves apart fron the evolution part

 

 

[Guest IB]

I have a yearling hen that had been training badly recently, and handling her, she feels 'lop-sided' if that's possible? On one side she seems quite well muscled and bulked-out from the keel (a bit like the hull of a viking long ship) but on the other side her keel is bare, and she feels almost straight up from there? Is this a sign of injury or has something else gone wrong?

[Guest IB]

I don't know what the sudden beef is as I have always edited down quotes to show clearly the bit that I am replying to.

 

I see absolutely no point in for example repeating a large quote and colour-highlighting 6 words in it. In my opinion that just wastes space.

[DOVEScot]

I don't know what the sudden beef is as I have always edited down quotes to show clearly the bit that I am replying to.

 

I see absolutely no point in for example repeating a large quote and colour-highlighting 6 words in it. In my opinion that just wastes space.

 

Just by cutting it out of my post and putting the same in your quote just looked daft  :-/

[DOVEScot]

I don't know what the sudden beef is as I have always edited down quotes to show clearly the bit that I am replying to.

 

I see absolutely no point in for example repeating a large quote and colour-highlighting 6 words in it. In my opinion that just wastes space.

 

In fact there was a ex member called Bruno who continually copied and pasted long winded articles from the net, like he knew what he was talking about, like you say, a waste of space, I learned a lot from him