genetics

[storm rollers]

can anyony help ? when you breed a round of young how are the genes of the parents split in the young ? oh did i mention im a complete novice in genetics lol

[Guest Freebird]

can anyony help ? when you breed a round of young how are the genes of the parents split in the young ? oh did i mention im a complete novice in genetics lol

Do you mean sex linkage? Have a look here but be prepared to have a sore head, He He He!

 

http://www.angelfire.com/ga3/pigeongenetics/index.html

 

[Wiley]

dont ask me but i always was lead to believe if there was a top racing cock bird you would want a daughter of him as he would pass most of his genes down to his daughters and vice versa for a hen, but i am a complete novice on genetics!

[Guest Owen]

It is simpler if you remember that each parent passes 50% of their genes to their young. In identical twins the genes that are passed on are identical. They all match. In non-identical young the genes are passed on in a random way. So, in theory, full brothers or sisters can be very differant from each other because each could have received a differant set of genes from each other. In practice this would not happen because there would always be a degree of duplication. That is why siblings have a common look to them but are not as alike as identical twins. But it is not just looks that are involved, temperament, disposition and physical capablities are also part of the mix.

If you start there you can build on the practicalities of genetics as you go along. My own view is that if you can pair unrelated winners together, it is only a matter of time before you breed winning birds. As a rule of thumb, if you pair two winners together, you should breed about 25% good birds, 25% average birds and about 50% below average birds. If you then pair the best birds from this sort of pairing you should improve your averages. If you move away from the birds carrying the winning genes you will make the average worse. The most important thing to remember is that no-one can actually see which birds are carrying the winning genes. And that you can buy birds from the best of parents and be unlucky enough to end up with junk. The key is, to make sure you test the progeny from your matings and only place value on those that actually perform. And then dump the ones that do not measure up, regardless of how they are bred and how they look.  

[Guest JonesyBhoy]

I remember a Geoff Kirkland article...

 

And he said if you buy a grand - daughter of a Champion Cock.. she must come from a son of the original cock.. as the original cocks chromosome can't be passed from daughter to daughter..

 

Is this correct..??

 

Got to say its a subject that interests me very much.. its all well and good pairing winners to winners.. but if you have an idea of genetics its gives you an oppurtunity to maintain the same winning lines for many generations..

[Guest frank dooman]

great thread very interisting

[Guest beautyhomer]

It is only sex linked genes that cannot be passed from dam to daughter,they can only be passed to sons.Non sex linked genes are passed to both sexes from the sire and the dam.

[Novice]

I have always found the theory of genetics to be a waste of time.

Much too deep for me.

 

Johnesybhoy-----I seem to recollect that I was once told that the tail grand dam was the most important ancestor on a pedigree.

That is the mother's mother.

Could just be an old wives tale.  

[Guest IB]

................Johnesybhoy-----I seem to recollect that I was once told that the tail grand dam was the most important ancestor on a pedigree.

That is the mother's mother.

Could just be an old wives tale.  

 

I think that one came from one of Old Hands books. Not sure that its true..

[storm rollers]

i was chatting to a fancier not so long back and he told me if you breed a cock it will cary 65% of its mums genes and 35% of its dads and vice varsa for the young hen .how true is this?

[Guest frank dooman]

ive tried to understand it many times but i keep getting lost ( just thick) i think  :-/ :-/ :-/ but would love to fully understand it all the good old stock men can do it right

[storm rollers]

frank i fear im in the same boat as you just cant get my head round it

[sammy]

http://www.cabinsoftware.biz/Genetics_Tutorial/Part1.htm

[duncandoo]

the number of chromosomes in a pigeon egg or sperm is sixty one so if you get from the champion you get the full count, from a son it halves, grandson half again until you get so far down the line that there is almost no genes from the original pigeon left get as close as you can from the champ

[Guest IB]

can anyony help ? when you breed a round of young how are the genes of the parents split in the young ? oh did i mention im a complete novice in genetics lol

 

No offence to the other posts but in my opinion the best answer to that would be one word - randomly.

 

A random selection of 50% of the cock's thousands of genes, different in every single sperm, and a random selection of 50% of the hen's thousands of genes, different in every single ova.  And only one of those millions of sperm can fertilise one ova, and create a new youngster in the egg.

[Guest frank dooman]

heres a ques on this i have a good cock that has bred winners with diferent hens but hes getting old now what is the best bird to try and reproduce his like for the stock loft is it  a g/dtr from the hens side or the cocks side so g.g.g/dtr paired back to the old fella or is there a better way????????

[Guest IB]

the number of chromosomes in a pigeon egg or sperm is sixty one so if you get from the champion you get the full count, from a son it halves, grandson half again until you get so far down the line that there is almost no genes from the original pigeon left get as close as you can from the champ

 

Sorry, but you don't normally have an odd number of chromosomes in any animal that is able to reproduce itself.

 

There are 40 in each cell in a pigeon, these reduce by half to 20 in each sperm and 20 in each ova. Fertilisation brings that back up to 40 in the youngster in the egg.

[duncandoo]

sorry just quoting from the book the thoroughbred racing pigeon by j kilpatrick

[storm rollers]

so can anyone tell me if wat i was told by another fancier is true then ?

[Guest JonesyBhoy]

heres a ques on this i have a good cock that has bred winners with diferent hens but hes getting old now what is the best bird to try and reproduce his like for the stock loft is it  a g/dtr from the hens side or the cocks side so g.g.g/dtr paired back to the old fella or is there a better way????????

 

Im thinking thats what Geoff Kirkland was getting at...(if hes correct of course) if the hen you have came from a daughter of a daughter of the cock.. the part of the original cock would have been lost..

 

Therefore pairing that the hen back to the old cock for retaining the blood wouldn't work..

 

At least thats the way im reading.. it certainly is confusing..

 

[Guest JonesyBhoy]

sorry just quoting from the book the thoroughbred racing pigeon by j kilpatrick

 

Aw whats that book..????

 

[Guest IB]

i was chatting to a fancier not so long back and he told me if you breed a cock it will cary 65% of its mums genes and 35% of its dads and vice varsa for the young hen .how true is this?

 

Not true. 50% from each parent. I think what he may be meaning is that the hen has the male W chromosome, and controls whether the youngster is a cock or not.

[Guest frank dooman]

i thought that 50% was passed to each y/b so when you  get to a g/dtr she  only has 25% of the old cock so if you pair her back to the old fella then the y/bs will have 75% of the old cock but it gets complicated if the cock passes his good genes to the young hen then that hen passes it to her y/cocks OH NO IAM GETTING LOST AGAIN so do i have to go to the g.g/grand child on the cocks side to put it back to the old fella

[Guest IB]

sorry just quoting from the book the thoroughbred racing pigeon by j kilpatrick

 

Like yourself, I am relying upon reading, and took some information from Steven van Breemen’s translation of Prof Alfons Anker’s Book ‘Art of Breeding’ (Breemen’s title) which is an internet book available through subscription to Winning Magazine, Breemen's internet mag.  Anker was an animal geneticist. Written for pigeon fanciers so little jargon and reasonably easy to follow:-.

 

An ordinary pigeon cell contains 40 pairs, or 80 chromosomes. Sperm and egg cells each only have 40 chromosomes, half of what an ordinary cell has. Also, only half of the hereditary characteristics of each producing parent bird are found in either the sperm or the egg cell. This cell division (reductive division) is done at will, as the outcome of a lottery. It is quite well possible that one sperm may contain 10 chromosomes of the father and 30 of the mother of the pigeon producing the sperm. If this happens, the off-spring will have more of it's grandmother's chromosomes, on the fathers side. Consequently, the off-spring will resemble the grandmother more than the grandfather. Another sperm coming from the same pigeon may have a ratio of 20-20, 13-27, etc. The forty pairs of chromosomes are split at random during the reductive division and become 40 single chromosomes which, when fertilized, are paired together with the 40 chromosomes from the partner, to form a new 40 pairs of chromosomes.

 

Also my memory not too good, its 40 pairs of chromosomes, not 40 as I posted before. An abridged version is available free to read / copy & paste at:-

 

http://www.stevenvanbreemen.nl/en/?Mini_Course_The_Art_of_Breeding:Part_1

 

 

 

[Guest IB]

i thought that 50% was passed to each y/b so when you  get to a g/dtr she  only has 25% of the old cock so if you pair her back to the old fella then the y/bs will have 75% of the old cock but it gets complicated if the cock passes his good genes to the young hen then that hen passes it to her y/cocks OH NO IAM GETTING LOST AGAIN so do i have to go to the g.g/grand child on the cocks side to put it back to the old fella

 

I think you are right Frank, it gets very complicated after the first generation. How much of which ancester is in each successive generation is still lottery-based. My last post on chromosomes gives the general idea. I think its not something that can be determined for definite without DNA samples from all the birds in the pedigree? And how much would that cost, and would it be any help in breeding a champion?