eyesign real or fake

[bewted]

hijack,with you on that about stock loft,no good pigeons with faulty eyes are out,i just hope i can breed what i am learning about good eyes and get rid of the bad pigeon,regardless of its parentage,i can only try,time and patience with a bit of knowledge will help,,,ted ted

[schouwman71]

Pity M.D.Evans were not members on here with how many 1st open national winners and multiple federation winners they have bred with their Herman pigeons and Gaby pigeons,wonder if mark pairs up by eyes or believes in the eye sign theory after all i think they are the best in the u.k.

[Jack Barkel]

They don't have to be, but they would be so much better if they were, some may even be able to get along without it, but most cant even have a good guess, without it.

 

We should never disregard or condem anything because we do not understand it.

 

This is one of the mistakes and weaknesses of the average mind today.

 

Jack

[schouwman71]

my best 2 ever breeders won eye sign shows and bred pleny of winners my red cock bred me a slaty hen that had a great old gold yellow eye and she bred 3x1sts and 8 2nds in 3 years breeding there eyes looked like gems when the sun shined on them my no 2 stock cock was a slate with a great gun metal eye and he bred winners on bad race days flying into north west winds,my no1 was a red cock and he had a heavy red eye with a blue circle he bred 18x 1st winners and g.sire to a lot more,i must say i have not come across these types of eyes since.Makes you think dusnt it.

[bewted]

hi jack,the iris,no 4 circle,do the rods in this part of the eye need to be thick or thin orr dont matter?   ted

[Jack Barkel]

Hello Ted,

 

I believe that the Iris must appear to stand out as if painted on with oil paints.

 

An Iris that looks as if it is put on with water paints has no definition, again Carney's expression, Wishy Washy.

 

Regards

 

Jack

[bewted]

hi jack,hope your ok? no 2 circle,eg; full yellow or pearl,,,,lines going round inside of no 2 circle,,,,eg;circles within circles,do these extra circles make it a better or worse eye?   ted

[Jack Barkel]

Hello Ted,

 

Many people read into the eye speed lines and distance lines, I have found that just as many have speed or distance that do not show these lines.

 

Based on this fact I reject it in its entirety. If it can't be part of a spot on critique I do not accept these claims as bearing any validity. Playing with eye sign in this manner causes much doubt and only creates more sceptics. My advice is to leave it alone, although it has a place in iridology, it has no place in selecting speed, distance, or breeding qualities. Many variable signs in the eye are to do with the digestive systems or other health matters.

 

Regards

 

Jack

[Guest]

Hi Jack,

 

I got white-grizzled's got yellow eyes - are they in the whtie lines or grizzles lines? I've seen most pure white got dark bull eyes?.

 

Regards

Speight

[Jack Barkel]

Hello Craig,

 

They are Grizzle lines, all pure whites have bull eyes, this is a fact.

 

Regards

 

Jack

[bewted]

thanks jack,slowly running out of questions,but,you have been of enormous help to me,once again thanks,,,ted

[Jack Barkel]

Hello All,

 

Let me state categorically that I do not think eye sign is the be all and end all of selection of a pigeon. I myself use every attribute available to me, and pride myself for not having closed vision. I am also aware that a very small minority can maintain a successful stock loft without a working knowledge of eye sign. In a top loft deterioration can creep in over many years, or if the breeder is not observant it can be a frighteningly rapid decline.

 

I say a knowledge of the genetic drift which can be seen in the eye, can give one an early warning system, that something has crept in which may be disadvantages to what was a perfect stock loft.

 

We need all the tools available to maintain and even improve our stock and I believe that the observation of the changes in the eye will assist in this matter.

 

I feel I have done more research than most on this subject, and I believe my books are the most advanced on this particular line of selection and maintenance.  I came on this site to help those who are interested to further their knowledge on the subject and I will try to answer any question on the subject that may be causing doubts.

 

Please notice I primarily just reply to questions, and do not force my beliefs or methods on anyone. In fact if one has not purchased my books they will never find out off me the full extent of what is contained within those pages. I have not placed any articles on this site and have no intention of doing so. I realise that there are those who are not interested in my writings and accept this.

 

My books are not usually available to United Kingdom fanciers because of the banks transfer fees of money. Their fees are treble that of any other country I have dealings with. The fanciers who have purchased have taken the risk and sent cash, rather than pay these exorbitant fees.

I am not trying to sell books here, but I have had several enquiries from UK fanciers in my private mailbox at Pigeon Basics and wish to inform those people that UK bank charges are unrealistic.

 

No more replies from me until Monday, enjoy your weekend.

 

Sincerely-Jack Barkel

 

[bewted]

hi jack,hope you had a good weekend?   apart from the eye,what else do you look for in a pigeon of some quality?  ted x

[Jack Barkel]

hi jack,hope you had a good weekend?   apart from the eye,what else do you look for in a pigeon of some quality?  ted x

 

Hello Ted and All,

 

Before any more progress can be made on eye sign selection and rejection, I must state that various physical attributes must be met once the eye reveals it will produce or race.

 

 

 

I prefer a medium sized pigeon, rather than the very small or very large. This allows me a slight variation towards one or the other and only eliminates those birds at the extreme opposite ends of the scale. I also prefer a long deep keeled pigeon rather than a short keeled apple bodied pigeon, and have found that the long deep keeled bird is easier to control, in eating, weight and exercise. It also tends to retain the long breast muscle in long extended flights home, without showing a great loss of body size and weight during the ordeal. I find this very important for quick recuperation after a hard race.

 

 

 

Another point I look for is that when the wing is held open at 90 degrees to the body the secondary flights must cover well over the back of the pigeon, see Photograph attached.                

 

The secondary flights must also be long so as to merge with the No 1 primary flight, thus showing no step in the wing.  See same Photograph

 

Although short secondary flights can give the bird added speed, it puts extra effort on the wing beat, causing the bird to tire more quickly and reduces the distance at which it can race successfully.

 

 

 

A combination of the bone structure that seems to work in harmony with this wing structure is the humerus bone. This bone situated close to where the wing joins the body, should be about one quarter inch or six millimetres from the body. The closer it is to the body the less physical effort is needed to fly long distances. Once again this helps to increase the stamina of the racing pigeon.

 

 

 

A point I reject in a racing pigeon is the bird with the barrel chest, when looking at a bird from the front it must be long and narrow, rather than short and wide. The theory being, as in the water the Corvette type boat will always outpace the flat bottomed boat, so we expect the same results from the birds of the air.

 

 

 

Regards

 

Jack

 

 

[bewted]

thanks jack,this is new to me,but,one of great importance for my brain,,,ted

[bewted]

me again jack,the end flights on the wing(primary),is there any trueth in that these flights should be narrow? also,any significance in a pigeon with that extra flight in the wing or not?  ted

[Jack Barkel]

Hello Ted,

 

Although there will be a shortening of the end flight with close breeding which I try to keep as long as the number nine primary, I am of the opinion that broad or narrow primaries can make little difference apart from when a bird is taking of from the ground. Having answered your question in one short sentence without giving any reason therefore, I will proceed with the following observations which are purely my own and not from anyone else's writings.

 

The primaries make the turbulence which is gathered under the wing a pigeon rides this turbulence with its aerolons which are its secondary flights. That is why short secondary flights will give a greater speed but cause a faster wing beat as the short secondary needs more turbulence to ride on.

 

That is why I advocate longer secondary flights, because it creates more buoyancy and less effort to stay in the air. If one looks at a flock of pigeons that has settled down to fly home, their wing beat is perceived as just a regulated twitch to maintain a regular speed. There is no exaggerated up and down movement in a pigeons flight, when it has a well developed wing.

 

We are limited to the size engine we have in our pigeons, and we can through breeding to the conformation we are trying to create, improve the wing, body and muscle structure, to give us the best all round performance over a given distance.

 

There are varying theories on the structure of the pigeon, that will give the best results. I am afraid it would be impossible for anyone to convince me otherwise to what I have stated, on a forum like this. It would take pages and pages of sketches and scientific data to make me detract from the type of pigeon I try to create. I try to mould all the attributes together that I wish to reproduce with regularity.

 

I hope this helps you Ted, there is so much we can all still learn about our little feathered friends, if only one had the time to take our observations a step further.

 

The eleven flighter is no better than the ten flighter in my opinion, it is a deformity that I breed out in my pigeons.

 

Regards

 

Jack

 

[bewted]

thanks jack,certainly helps,gives me food for thought as the saying goes,,will study that one for sure,much appreciated,thanks for sharing some of your vast knowledge with me,  highest regards   ted

[bewted]

hi jack,,,secondary flights,,,,will long secondary flight birds breed occesionally short secondary flight birds until you get the breeding right?  ted

[Jack Barkel]

Hello Ted,

 

Unfortunately through generations of injudicious pairings by fanciers not very well informed about the evolution of the racing pigeon, these mistakes such as short secondary flights are deeply seated in the gene pool of most families.

 

You can, as I have done, through strict selection, never allowing this fault and many others to be part of your stock bird selection, slowly eliminate these characteristics. However from time to time one will pop up, and that is when you race this pigeon out, and never tolerate it among your stock birds.

 

You can do this with all characteristics, and eventually these odd throw backs become a rarity, rather than a regularity.

 

If you start now Ted, you will in a few generations be able to say that you are in control of the gene pool of your family of pigeons, with only a very small percentage that will disappoint. If you do not, your family will always be a mixture of liquorice allsorts, with the odd good one popping up out of the gene pool. Over the last 15 years it has been my most concerted effort to eliminate as much genetic drift as possible in the racing pigeon, and try to restore them back to the original characteristics of the great strains.

 

Most fanciers are either not aware or do not appear to think it matters, the decision lies with the individual whether they are going to be good or only think they are good. Fanciers need to be their own biggest critic as to how they manage their production, and try to increase their productivity of only the best.

 

You sound as if you really want to do it the right way, and that is why I feel my efforts to reply the way I do, will not be in vain.

 

Regards

 

Jack

 

[bewted]

thanks jack,will certainly work on your words of wisdom,,,,,,,the tail,is there anything that should be of equal value to the pigeon to be any better for breeding wise,i hope you can understand that jack,,,,regards   ted

[Jack Barkel]

Hello Ted,

 

This is a matter of preference, but the best overall pigeons I have handled, in the UK, America, and South Africa have had long tails with broad feathers.

 

Most short wedge tails as advocated by the Continental flyers are sprint pigeons, and certainly not the Barcelona types.

 

Most joked on basketing night that I was entering fantails, but the jokes were absent on clocking out night. I will say again it is a matter for conjecture, but I prefer an abundance of feather in all departments.

 

Regards

 

Jack

 

 

[Betoaleixo]

For me its a good eye.for racing and breeding but this eye it depends on is ancestours but in my logic its an middle distance and long distance eye.

[bewted]

hi jack,long keel pigeon,,,,,is there a certain lenght of keel that is best or just breed for long keel birds,meaning there is no set lenght,just long?  thanks   ted

[Jack Barkel]

Hello Ted,

 

Yes Ted just long, if you place your four fingers along the keel bone there should be about a quarter inch space between each finger. Any closer than this is a short keel bone, with a short rounded breast muscle. Apple bodied as they say.

 

You will get the feel with practice.

 

Jack