Colour Gene

[Guest]

I got a pair of Cheq cock and Mealy hen in the Stock Lofts. breeding two red cheques now. but is it possible to breed a cheq and Mealy youngsters or not?

 

[Guest beautyhomer]

Yes,if the cock is split cheq/bar

No,if the cock is pure cheq (cheq/cheq)

[Guest]

Pretty puzzled by the 'mealy' gene or genes myself.

 

I've managed another Mealy pied from a grizzle cock x blue hen pairing this year ... the mealy colour is coming from the cock's dam, a mealy pied .. and the cock takes his 'red' colouring from her too as his sire was a blue grizzle.

 

The only other mealies I've bred are from a blue grizzle cock x mealy pied hen (off the grizzle cock above) and a Dk cock x red chequer hen, the hen having a mealy in her ancestry, (g/sire I think).

 

Also considered red colour dominant in all these pairings, but what turns a red to mealy and vice-versa?

 

 

[Guest beautyhomer]

There is no gene for mealy as such,it is a combination of Ash Red (colour) and Barred (patern) genes.Mealy is used to describe this combination of genes,officially they are Ash Red Bars.

When you refere to a red pigeon I assume you mean a red checker.This is a combination of Ash Red and Checker.You are correct about Ash Red being dominant over blue.

When breeding from a mealy it can pass on either the Ash Red gene or the barred gene to a youngster or both at the same time.

The mealy that you have bred this year has got its colour from its sire and its pattern from its dam

[symbro]

once again beauty homer hit it right on the head.  bruno and speight... there is tons of information on the internet about genes and what they really are called and how they can be tranfered from parents to offspring.  We pigeon racer and fancy pigeon people have really confused ourselves with mixing up the terms.  i have been studying pigeon genetics for about a year now.  being able to look at your bird and it's parents and offspring and almost know exactly what is going on is a great feeling.

 

the basics are simple but there are alot of mutations that can act like eachother.  but basically there are three different colours only.  from dominate to recessive- Red Ash - Blue (wild type) -  brown.  any other colours we see are a form of these three.

 

then there are our patterns.  again from dominate to recessive.  Dark check, light check, barred, barless.  any other patterns we see are created by a pattern modifier.  but the bird is still carrying (two if male and one if female) these basic pattern genes.  

 

if i have caught your attention then look up the websites from these helpful people below

 

Tom Barnhart

Frank Mosca

Ron Huntley

 

Good Luck and have fun.  feel free to PM me if you have any questions... i have not learned everything but i have put a big dent into the information.

 

shawn

[Guest]

While I agree that there is a lot of information 'out there' on genes, I feel it is badly skewed towards helping the show rather than the racing side of the sport.

 

With respect, the genetic tools are there to put the various colours and patterns together to help create a 'champion' show bird . But there's very little to go on on how the 'bits & bobs' fit together to create a 'champion' racer.  And again with respect to the eyesign people - that's a pure function of genes and nothing else.

 

The only reliable racing pointer colour has shown me so far is that the mealies and mealy pieds from this particular grizzle line have all gone down; while the grizzles are still there!  ;D  Still, this mealy pied is a nice youngster ... but then so were the rest.  ??)

 

The other thing I get side-tracked on is the mealy pied hen was bred by Derik Nordon. See a mealy in the nest and think well the colours there, wonder if the clockwork comes with it? Up until now it hasn't.  

[Guest beautyhomer]

Agree that most genetic information available only covers the various colours.

However,breeding a champion show pigeon takes more than creating a colour that takes the judges eye.No matter what the breed, type must always take priority over colour.You will find that it is just as hard to breed a pigeon of the correct type according to the relevant standard as it is to breed a good racing pigeon.

If colour and pattern was the only criteria being judged then everybody would be able to breed a champion and this just does not happen.

For a pigeon to be recognised as a champion it has to win 5 challenge certificates under at least 4 judges.How many times does a racing pigeon have to win to become a champion?From what I can gather if it wins a race it is considered a champion

[Guest ben]

HI Speight,

                 you could bred Blue barred,Lt ch,ch,in the Blue series.And Mealy,Lt red Ch,Red Ch,in the Red series

     The 2 Red Ch you have in the nest will be cocks,as the hen can only pass the colour she shows in her plumage(red).

    NOTE;-Clever ideal for widow boys looking for majority of cocks coming out of nests,red series hens in the stockloft,paired to Blue series cocks,will produce ALL COCKS Red series,so you can despose of all blue series babies at7-10 days old when the color appeares. :

Sybro,

           You are not correct,both the Cocks AND Hens can have 2 patterns each.

[Guest]

Thanks every body.

[symbro]

ack you are correct... hens carry a gene from each parent for pattern but only from sire for colour... sorry for the confusion

[Guest]

Didn't intend to belittle show pigeon or people, Beautyhomer, my point oversimplified things by sticking to colour, but you have picked up my drift OK ... most pigeon genetics are on colour genetics, very little on breeding 'type' ... race or show.

 

Also quite correct on what you say about 'Champion'. No doubt you've seen the posts elsewhere on the people who have been trying to breed champion racers all their life - waste of time really, all you need to do is check the pigeon press adverts for Champions -  ;D there are so many of them around now that they are even being sold!  ;D

 

 

 

 

[jimmy white]

;D ;D ;D yes as levi said, its all in the genes ;D ;D

[Rentenier]

Found this on the web.

  

A young Indigo t-pattern velvet asleep in my apple tree left, A Blue Qualmond right.

 

 

 

 

Basic Pigeon Genetic Information with photos of rare colored homing pigeons.

 

 

Hi:   My name is Ronald Huntley.    I’m both a lover of pigeons and an amateur genetic nut.   I want to know why one bird is one color while another is different.   In the process I read pigeon books, pamphlets, made phone calls and sent tons of e-mails searching out the answer to my questions.   In so doing, it became obvious to me that some good clear color photos were needed to aid in the description process.   At about same time my lovely wife Patricia gave me a digital camera .   With camera in hand I was off to the pigeon loft where I begin taking photos to go along with the information I was complying.  

 

I decided not to make a private journal but rather to display it here on the web so others, like yourself, could also enjoy it,.    This gave me three more hobbies to pursue; photography, web site design and genetics.

 

You could say this web site is my little book report on pigeon genetics.   Just putting it together has helped me understand the subject more fully.    I hope you too will find it just as helpful and interesting.   For me, its an ongoing project so stay tuned.   This web site will grow slowly but grow it will.    I hope you find it to your satisfaction.

 

Now before I begin, I want to thank all the genetic researchers for their keen insights and hard work in documenting their many studies and findings.     Their untiring efforts made it possible for a layperson like myself to share in this knowledge.    

 

I want to thank the late Dr. Willard F. Hollander for his lifetime of dedicated genetic research, for his many books and articles published and for personally taking time to answer my phone calls, letters and emails.  Doc., as his admirers so affectionately called him, passed away in January 2004 at the age of 90.    All that knew, respected and loved him, will miss him.  I feel honored to have been able to introduced my Grandson Michael to such a giant of a pigeon legend as Doc.

    

 

I also wish to thank my friend Dr. Lester Paul Gibson for his excellent book.  His many years in editing the Pigeon Genetics, News, Views, & Comments news letter.   For his tireless efforts in answering mine and so many other’s pigeon genetic questions and emails.

 

To Joseph W. Quinn for his many observations, books, CD’s volumes of research data and personnel time so freely given. To his lovely wife Mary for allowing Joe to spend time chewing the fat with so many of us pigeon nuts.

 

To Bob Mangile for his research data and pigeon genetic web site.    

 

To Frank Mosca for sparking my interest in this subject through his written articles, genetic web site and many emails.

 

To Dr. Axel Sell, for his excellent book on pigeon genetics.    

 

To Paul P. Cook, Jr. for his book Genetics Made Simple.    

 

To my friend and fellow genetic nut, Dr. Randal Herring for his generous donation of rare color homers and answers to my endless questions.

 

Last but not least, to my good friend Tom Barnhart who started the whole ball rolling by encouraging me to start this web site project.    I think Tom’s exact words to me were   “Ron your killing my email in-box!!”.    “You need to set up a web page for those photos so I can simply log in and see what you’re asking”.    To make a long story short I did as Tom asked and this is the result.    I hope you all enjoy it.

 

These fine gentlemen and others, conducted the long years of research needed to determine what we now know about pigeon genetics.    It is from their hard work that I compiled these next few pages.    I would encourage anyone who desires to learn more about our birds genetics to obtain copies of their work.

 

 

Information found on this web site was obtained from the following reference source publications:

 

 

Origins and Excursions in Pigeon Genetics by Dr. W.F. Hollander.

Breeding and Inheritance in Pigeons by Dr. Axel Sell

Genetics of Pigeons Columba Livia (Gmelin) by Dr. Lester Paul Gibson

An introduction to Pigeon Science by Joseph W. Quinn

The Pigeon Breeder’s Notebook Feather, Form, and Flight by Joe Quinn

Genetics Made Simple with special reference to Pigeons by Paul P Cook, Jr.

Franks Mosca's Pigeon Genetics web site

Tom Barnhart's Pigeon Genetics web site

Bob Mangile's Genetic site web site

Pigeon Genetics, News, Views & Comments by Dr. Lester P. Gibson, Editor

 

 

 

 

 

  

That's my Grandpa John R Huntley on the left in 1916 with one of his prize racing homers.    I'm the guy in the center with my prize show winning hen.    She won best overall flown racer in the Carolina Pigeon Club 1999 show as well as best flown old hen.    My eldest Grandson Michael Bingham is on the right with his recessive red Russian Tumbler.   Michael is now a Mechanical Engineering student at Clemson University, Anderson South Carolina.   Between the three of us we make over 100 years of pigeon flying, handling and showing.   It skips every other generation. I think that's kind of neat.  My other two grandsons Cory and Jake also like pigeons but they live in an area where they sadly cannot keep them.   So just to make sure they don't miss out on all the fun I always save some of the loft cleaning duties just for them.

 

When finished looking over my site’s material, please take a minute and visit my Links Page.   There you will find links to all the major pigeon organizations, supply outlets, pigeon publications, pedigree software and of course other pigeon genetic sites.    In addition, you'll find several pigeon clubs and individuals flyers web sites. Don’t forget thou to come back to this page when your finished so you can choose one of the links on the Pigeon Web Ring.     Whatever you choose to do, I hope you enjoy it.

 

Now with your mouse pick a pigment color or a genetic subject and click on it.    It will take you, to that selected page:

 

Glossary of Genetic Terms

Genetic Symbols

Chapter 1 - Sex, Chromosomes and Genes

Chapter 2 - Cell Reproduction, Mitosis, Meiosis and Crossovers

Chapter 3 - Genetic Terms and Meanings

Chapter 4 - The Ten Commandments of every Pedigree

 

Brown (.....the least dominant of the three true base colors

Blue (+).....the next dominant of the three and the original or wild type form

Ash Red (BA).....the most dominant of the three true base colors

The Pattern Series - every pigeon carries two genes for these.

Dilute (d) and Pale (d P) or " Yellow, Dun and Khaki " - sex linked color modifiers.

Reduced®- a sex linked color modifier

Almond (St); Faded (StF); Qualmond (StQ); Hickory(StH); Sandy(StS); Frosty(StF) all sex linked color modifiers.

Opals(Od)Dominant Opal and (o) Recessive Opal   color modifiers

Grizzle(G)   color modifier

Indigo (In)   color modifier

Smokey (sy) also called Slate; Sooty (So) and Dirty (V)   color darkening modifiers

Spread   color modifier

Other Reds such as Recessive Red, Ash Red and Indigo red mimics

Mosaic - What is a Mosaic?

Ember   color  modifier

Eye  colors

Birds used in the on going MC1-r genetic study.

Frequently asked questions.

 

Sorry but I have no "Birds For Sale".

 

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About Biology with Regina Bailey is a learning web site. Click on this link and learn the “Basics in Genetic” from a non pigeon prospective.

 

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Pigeon Links, National Organizations, Publications and other related pigeon information

 

 

Click here for CARE OF A LOST PIGEON and how to find its owner

 

 

Click here for Symptoms and Treatments for pigeon related illnesses.

Chevita Gmbh is a German / Austrian pharmaceutical company engaged in the development and manufacture of animal health products.   They have an excellent web site for pigeon related diseases and recommend treatments.   There you will find a list of symptoms and treatment for just about every medical problem that may arise in your loft.   It’s a great source of information.    I strongly recommend all pigeon breeders become familiar with the services they provide. Click here and check it out.

 

My Trip to the 1999 National Young Bird Show in Louisville Kentucky

My Trip to the 1999 Carolina Pigeon Club Annual All Age Show in Greenville SC.

My Military Career

 

Next Page

 

Disclaimer:

 

I have no formal training in the area of genetics so I’m by no means an expert.   I do read as much published genetics on pigeons as I can and discuss it with others that are.  I try to observe carefully what I’ve seen in my birds.  It’s these observations and some conclusions along with what I have learned from others that I share with you here on this site.  It’s done in hopes that it will aid you to both understand and put genetics to good use in your loft.

 

        

 

 

 

StudyWeb  

  

 

 

 

 

 

 

Email: ronhuntley@cox.net

 

Copyright 1999 by Ronald Huntley.

Permission is granted to download or copy for non-commercial individual use only.

The author retains all other rights under copyright.

Ronald R. Huntley

Web Page Designer

Warner Robins, GA 31088

phone: (478) 922-7950

 

webdesigner

 

 

 

RONHUNTLEY'SRARECOLORS14APRIL2006123456789101112............

[symbro]

why did you post this?  his website is great you could have posted a link... (infact i did on another thread)  

 

but really what part were you trying to point out?

[Rentenier]

Sorry symbro, You are more clever then I am with the use of computers. What I wanted to did not work. Did I spoil your day?.

[peterpau]

So tell me how is it R ch Cock Grizzle Hen produce Blue pd and a mealy. Just to be sure these two were in a section on their own. I'd guess the blue is a cock and the mealy is a hen.

[Guest ben]

Peterpau,

            not  really,You have a Red ch CockxGriz hen,but you do not tell us the hens pattern,or colour?

The Red Ch cock could be split for blue if you see any black splashes in it`s plumage,if so could fire blue into some of it`s offspring.What we also get wrong many times is saying hens only have 1 colour gene to throw,not correct it fires 2 but 1 is a blank .

[peterpau]

Thanks Ben. I'm not realy into this genetics stuff, but I did find it surprising. The Red Check Cock has no signs of black splash but he is almost blood red slightly pied. The Grizzle hen is what I would recognise as a true blue grizzle. Now I do have a very different type of blue grizzle which is more white with blue splashes.

[Ron]

Hi

I'm starting to get more interested in the color genetics latley. I'm not sure if I'm understanding it yet but if you crossed an ash red cock with a grizzle hen, would you get 1/2 of the young ash red and the other half ashred grizzle? Or am I compleatly up my a$$ ?

 

Ron

[Guest beautyhomer]

Ron,

     Your sugestion is one possible outcome from this pairing.This is assuming that the cock is homozygos for Ash Red (2 ash red genes) and the hen is heterozygos for grizzle (1 grizzle gene).

If the hen is homozygos for grizzle all of the young will be grizzle.

If cock is split for blue 1/2 the young hens will be blue/blue grizzle.

 

Please see my other posts on breeding grizzles and mealies.

 

The classic show grizzle is a blue bar which is heterozygos for grizzle.These should only be paired to blue bars.Half the young will be blue bar and the other half blue grizzles.

Grizzles SHOULD NOT be paired to chequers,pieds or any other colour modifyed pigeons as the resulting offspring are often mismarked or not as attractive in the show pen.

Many of the grizzles I have seen on the forums pages are from such matings giving an almost white appearance in some cases or very dark pigeons with just the head grizzled.

[Guest]

If Grizzle Girl x Black Boy - what the youngsters colour will be ?

[westy]

If Grizzle Girl x Black Boy - what the youngsters colour will be ?

 

well i had drk grizzle gal and a cheq pied lad and got a drk grizzle and a drk cheq

[Guest beautyhomer]

If Grizzle Girl x Black Boy - what the youngsters colour will be ?

 

Speight,as grizzle and spread (black) are non sex linked colour modifyers it does not matter which parent has which gene.The easy answer would be black pigeons with grizzled heads but its not that simple.This is assuming that each parent has 2 genes for their colour modifyer.

If not there are numerous possible combinations you could breed

[Ron]

Ron,

     Your sugestion is one possible outcome from this pairing.This is assuming that the cock is homozygos for Ash Red (2 ash red genes) and the hen is heterozygos for grizzle (1 grizzle gene).

If the hen is homozygos for grizzle all of the young will be grizzle.

If cock is split for blue 1/2 the young hens will be blue/blue grizzle.

 

Please see my other posts on breeding grizzles and mealies.

 

The classic show grizzle is a blue bar which is heterozygos for grizzle.These should only be paired to blue bars.Half the young will be blue bar and the other half blue grizzles.

Grizzles SHOULD NOT be paired to chequers,pieds or any other colour modifyed pigeons as the resulting offspring are often mismarked or not as attractive in the show pen.

Many of the grizzles I have seen on the forums pages are from such matings giving an almost white appearance in some cases or very dark pigeons with just the head grizzled.

 

Thanks beautyhomer

Sorry for not replying, we had a snow storm go through the other day and it knocked out our internet. Got back online today.

I have another one for you if you don't mind.

A siver check hen and an ashred cock carrying blue . This mating would produce some ashred cocks carrying the dilute gene, some blue cocks carrying the dilute gene. Some ashred hens and some blue hens...right?

 

Ron

 

 

[Guest beautyhomer]

Spot on Ron  ;D