when to take youngsters out of nest

pigeonscout · March 4, 2007

Well the main advantage i see of putting them down on the floor is the boost to the immune system.With the young being fed by different birds i would expect there immune system to be boosted from all the birds feeding them so as a whole the loft would be be collectively at the same level of immunity.Ive got 17 youngsters weaned in a darkness loft now.These 17 all look and feel like a good team(better than the team i bought in last year) my second round have not been put on the floor prior to weening and i must be hohnest and say the first round seemed to be be better at the same stage but i havnt weened my second round yet so time will tell.

The immune system gave to the young bird from parents when feeding comes from pigeon milk and is not given when pumping corn. Are the first round of young birds better because the hen had a long rest and was able to put a lot of goodness into the first round of eggs?

pigeonscout · March 4, 2007

Antibodies against various microbes with which the breeding pigeon was confronted are deposited in the egg yolk and used by the developing youngster. Antibodies also pass via the crop milk to the young pigeon after it has hatched, similar to the way antibodies in colostrum are transferred to new-born mammals.

Some parallels to mammals can be drawn:

There is a limited and short time period during which the antibodies in the crop milk escape digestion and can be taken up directly by the circulation. Feeding crop milk after this time period has elapsed will not transfer any immunity to the bird because the antibodies present in the crop milk are digested by the now older pigeon.

The adult animal can only develop resistance to the micro-organisms with which it was confronted at some time and against which it had to develop immunity by manufacturing antibodies. The adult pigeon cannot put antibodies into the crop milk which it does not have.

pigeonscout · March 4, 2007

Would it be safe to let another old bird feed the young bird and transfer different micro-organisms the young bird was not protected against?

If a young bird gets its immune system from egg and then again from milk would it be getting a double strength immune systems if you switched the eggs one from its parents from egg and one from milk of forester parents?

Ronnie · March 4, 2007

Would it be safe to let another old bird feed the young bird and transfer different micro-organisms the young bird was not protected against?
If a young bird gets its immune system from egg and then again from milk would it be getting a double strength immune systems if you switched the eggs one from its parents from egg and one from milk of forester parents?

If this is the case then the youngster will still benefit by building immunity to the different micro-organisms that are present in the rest of the loft because it will then come into contact with small doses of whatever the feeding birds are carrying.It should be obvious that the feeding parents are not carrying to many rogue micro-organisms because they shouldnt have been paired if ill.Sort of like a vaccination .I would go so far as to suggest that if this is the case then giving stockers a vaccination against pmv may not be as bad as a lot of people on here seem to think as they can then pass on the dead pmv cells to the youngsters so they can start to build there own immunity.

I'm no vet and so all this is sheer speculation and guess work on my behalf.

March 5, 2007

If this is the case then the youngster will still benefit by building immunity to the different micro-organisms that are present in the rest of the loft because it will then come into contact with small doses of whatever the feeding birds are carrying.It should be obvious that the feeding parents are not carrying to many rogue micro-organisms because they shouldnt have been paired if ill.Sort of like a vaccination .I would go so far as to suggest that if this is the case then giving stockers a vaccination against pmv may not be as bad as a lot of people on here seem to think as they can then pass on the dead pmv cells to the youngsters so they can start to build there own immunity.
I'm no vet and so all this is sheer speculation and guess work on my behalf.

I think that there is a lot of misunderstanding / not fully understanding of what immunity is all about. Not only amongst us common folks, but also amongst those that we rely on to keep us right. Theres a study commissioned by UK Government last year on it and expected to last 6 years. (Immune Memory thread on Health board)

The Colombovac leaflet under ‘further information’ gives general info on factors affecting successful PMV vaccination. A paragraph proves there are two routes to 'passive' immunity: “Maternally derived antibody (MDA) can interfere with the development of active immunity. Where it is likely that recent field infection or vaccination of the parent flock has stimulated a high antibody titre and consequently a high level of MDA, the timing of the vaccination programme should be planned accordingly”.

MDA is passed to the egg by the hen, as part of the complement of a whole package of passive immune factors, This is called passive immunity, and the second 'passive' route is via the crop milk youngster, where a number of antibodies have been discovered. (Crop & Crop Milk thread on Health board)

Active immunity is that brought about by vaccination.

And all birds in a loft will be exposed to all microbes present in that loft and carry antibodies to combat those microbes. But individual birds will be slightly different health wise and may carry those microbes at levels which could cause problems in the youngsters they are feeding. Its a matter of parent(s) not being in tip-top condition rather than being ill.

pigeonscout · March 5, 2007

It may have got over its illness and still carry the micro-organisms but it has built up an immunity to keep it in check. Its own young will have had this immunity passed on to them but other young birds from other parents will not have. If it was to pass these micro-organisms onto other young birds that did not have the immunity then these young birds would get sick before they built up their own immunity against it. I do not know the answer and I am not saying that this is true it is just thoughts I am having and hopefully someone will put me right.

There are flocks of chickens that have a good bacteria that fight of salmonella and the droppings from these flocks are made into a spray and sprayed onto day old chicks of other flocks. The droppings are also dried and mixed in with the food this good bacterium protects them from salmonella.

Could the same be done for pigeons by taking the dropping from a healthy flock and bring it to a flock that was not healthy. Could there be a good bacteria that protect some lofts from ever getting one of the young bird sicknesses? There are a lot of lofts that have never seen young bird sickness so what is it that protects their young birds could it be something as simple as a good bacteria?