Brother & Sister Matings

[Guest CS]

Brother and Sister matings the general consensus was that it is in most cases a disaster.... with exceptions of course.

My question is whether it makes a difference if the Brother & Sister in question are nest mates? Would it make it even worse?

[Guest shadow]

never mated two nest mates together

[Guest CS]

never mated two nest mates together

 

If you let them natural, they would pair up natural but would you forest the eggs from the other pair to the brother and sister mating ?

[The White Rapido Man]

Personally I would think pairing nest mates would be too close................I havent done it but have paired daughter back to father and son to mother which some believe is one o the best pairings you can have for strengthening bloodlines.........

 

 

[Back garden fancier]

The point of inbreeding and line breeding is to try and reproduce a good bird further back in the breeding line. Pairing brother to sister will not achieve this. Father/daughter or mother/ son would be better.

[Guest]

The point of inbreeding and line breeding is to try and reproduce a good bird further back in the breeding line. Pairing brother to sister will not achieve this. Father/daughter or mother/ son would be better.

can u explain why it wouldnt work ? i beleive 1/2 brother x sister to be a good un ? am i right or ?? what is the advantage of mother x son , or father x daughter pairings ?    posotive answers welcomed  ;D                                andy

 

 

[bewted]

father x daughter is better to reproduce back to a winning line on fathers side,,,,,,,,,,,but,mother x son is an outcross to the fathers line,(if my memory serves me right)as there progeny only breed back to son and not the father (MEMORY?)

[bewted]

if memory is right,,,,,,,you can breed brother/sister and then breed the daughter of this pairing back to the father only,but,never use the cocks for breeding,only race,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,dont quote me on this pklz,,,,,,,,i am trying to go by memory,but,something on theses lines,,,,,sorry i cant be of more help

[Guest]

This is an extract from an internet book written by Hungarian Professor, Alfons Anker, an expert in animal breeding, and translated into Dutch & English by Steven Van Breemen.

 

The second part, if I read it properly, shows there is little difference between brother & sister mating and father / daughter, mother / son. I have no information on the Wright's Breeding Index mentioned.

 

 

Inbreeding

 

In inbreeding, the homogeneous gene pair multiply and the bird’s already valuable breeding value is improved. Described in genetic terms, we conclude that this breeding method is best and allows specifically desired genes to occur more often and become more concentrated within a population. While it offers the possibility of amassing particularly valuable genes, it can also enhance undesirable properties - at the same time. Some properties improve through inbreeding while others deteriorate - we call this inbreeding depression.

 

Inbreeding depression, the disappearance of vitality, is truly not explicitly useful for us, but we can make good use of the knowledge to confirm the existence of disadvantageous hereditary properties: e.g. when youngsters are misformed, lethal factors, etc. occur often, we must discontinue inbreeding on such a type.

 

While genetic variation lessens when we inbreed, phenotype variation increases, especially in the case of non-additive properties. One must have professional expertise when inbreeding. Yet, it must be established once and for all that our world famous animals types such as the English thoroughbred racehorses,  the Danish lowland pig, the Australian Merino sheep, the Jersey cow, the Icelandic pony all thank their important place in zoology to a strictly applied and executed inbreeding. The ancestry of the English thoroughbred racehorses can be traced to 13 stallions and 48 mares who lived 350 years ago. Presently there are about 45,000 of such Ponies in Iceland. It is already 900 years since importation of horses in this small Island state is forbidden and because of that this race is the result of a 900 year long inbreeding.

 

 

Family breeding and inbreeding, is it the same?

 

The meaning of inbreeding is explained in different ways. In family breeding, we breed one specific type and avoid bringing in strangers, continuing to breed within that strain. This type of family breeding does not exclude the use of inbreeding but those following the family breeding system generally strive to pair only pigeons which are as little as possible related to each other so that the undesirable vitality decrease and diminished staying power is avoided. In this context consider the English thoroughbred, Icelandic ponies, Jersey cows etc. as classic examples of family breeding. In recent times, I could mention the Janssen population from Arendonk who have brought in practically nothing for 50 years, and tried to avoid close inbreeding to keep the vitality, staying power and the former characteristics of the strain.

 

We speak of inbreeding when the name of a specific ancestor occurs twice or more in the first three generations of the pedigree. We can use inbreeding also with family breeding. Even when one crosses, one can inbreed. The one therefore doesn’t preclude the other. In the domestic animal breeding, we indicate the degree of inbreeding with Wright’s Inbreeding Index as follows:

 

parents x children mating, or brother x sister mating: 0.25%

 

in the second generation twice the same ancestor or half brother x half sister mating: 0.125%

 

In the third generation twice the same ancestors or nephew x niece: 0.0525%

 

In the fourth generation twice the same ancestor: 0.03125%

 

An example:

 

Dikke Blauwe is a daughter of the Blesse-47 (via father's side, he is a half brother of the Klaren-46), and the nest sister of the Klaren-46. So the Klare-75 has a Wright Index of 0.15625%. Therefore, this index is higher than of a mating half brother x half sister (0.125%), but  lower than that of a father x daughter, or mother x son mating (0.25%). In reality however the Klare-75 is somewhat stronger inbred than 0.15 because in the 4th generation the Schuwe was a grand son of the Klaren-46, and the Dikke Blauwe carries the blood of the Klaren-46 for 75%. This increases the inbreeding index of the Klare-75 up to a little bit above 0.18%.

 

Inbreeding does not provide us with new qualities it only conserves the qualities already present. We cannot improve our average pigeons by means of inbreeding. From this follows the absolutely correct conclusion that one should only inbreed when one has real extraordinary pigeons. The pigeons we wish to use for inbreeding must be especially valuable with respect to their own additive characteristics.

 

[Wiley]

Being very much into my Lefebre Dhanen pigeon quote me if i am wrong but the great Laffy Daffy Tommy Tucker, was out of a nest pair!

[timbarra]

inbreeding with pigeons is ok , but remember it does not add anything , it  only uses what is already within your gene pool. before you embark or start with inbreeding, you must have birds of exceptional quality and performance, do not just start with 2 pigeons that are related.

you must visualise what type you want your birds to be, big small or medium, their feather type , eye type, and overall appearance!!

if and only if you have 2 related individual pigeons of similar quality and performance to conform to your type desired, then you can start inbreeding.

once you have started inbreeding you must select hard and I mean anything that does not conform from the moment it is born must be destroyed or culled. so think carefully about what your about to do.

All my meuleman pigeons are from an original 3 pigeons. my Klaks are from 4 pigeons, so i inbreed and line breed but i select so hard it frightens people when they realise what has to be done to maintain a superior family of birds to a high level.

inbreeding only uses whats in your gene pool. and if that is rubbish oigeons then you will get rubbish pigeons.

 

unless you know what you are doing read as much as you can.!!!! remember knowledge is only dangerous in the wrong hands.... do you have the hands?

[T_T]

Wiley,

         Does the names Goldmine Annie and Goldmine Ernie come to mind ??

[Wiley]

Wiley,

         Does the names Goldmine Annie and Goldmine Ernie come to mind ??

 

Clive,

you've been doing your homework  

[Guest j.bamling]

i knew a man from ryhope near sunderland who bred a 1st fed - 20th u.n.c 28.000 birds off a nest pair

[T_T]

Ryan,

          Had a son from that particular pair, a light chequer for £100 direct from Massarella some years ago and he bred through his blood, numerous winners and the lines are still doing it for my nephew.

[Wiley]

Ryan,

          Had a son from that particular pair, a light chequer for £100 direct from Massarella some years ago and he bred through his blood, numerous winners and the lines are still doing it for my nephew.

 

Clive,

thats brillant to here that the old Lefebre Dhanens are still doing the Buisness

[thunderboult]

1 of my stock pairs are half brother+sister from the same mother the young off these race very well