nest mates paired together

[Guest TIMBARRA LOFTS]

WILEY, can you explain mate as you used my name in text and not sure what you mean mate... cheers spencer :-/ :-/ :-/

[brerjr17]

I had nestmates pair together in 2006 they had both won the fed twice with over 3000 birds had 1 youngster off them and he has bred winners fantastic pairing in my opinion

[Wiley]

 

whats not spencer to answer this mean . ?  

 

but your understanding of the reason wiley is the same.

 

 

it should have read im not spencer to answer this, as the question the gentleman asked was directed to you, however i gave my view

[jimmy white]

hi all, i leave my racer's pick their own mates and two nestmates have paired together, i have seen good results through pairing this way(smargd birds) but would like to hear other peoples view on pairing this way, do you do it? what's the results ? . thanks

 

after a few of us got together, bought a good few yb,s from , then , the humberside  stud.. we put a deposit down at the end of the year , the following year , these y,bs averaged at about £15 each,, the yb,s were shared by a few fanciers,,

i topped the fed with one [a de lak ]

another of these fanciers topped a different fed [a de klak]

we decided to pair these two birds together, [without looking at the pedigrees] we split 4 yb,s,,,two each,, my one topped the fed,,it wasnt untill  then we checked the peds,, and to the surprise of both of us ,, these were two" nest mates " mated up i must admit, i would never have did this intentually , especially for racing,,, but the fact remains , a pair of nest mates ,,both topped different feds,bred a pigeon, that also topped the fed   so ,as with pigeons, be sure nothing will surprise you more   it would be very interesting to see if this pair of yours can produce a winner [or  hopefully  two ] wish you the best of luck anyway

[retired]

 

 

Morning.

I would never pair full brother and sister together let alone nest mates unless the birds were of exceptional quality, and i mean spectacular on all aspects of disirable traits , and both birds !!

I line breed and in -breed successfully and maitain a high standard of birds bred in this way, i also think the young will become smaller over a period of nests if not superior birds mate.

 

just my findings and opinion. as i have not seen the birds,

 

Why not Brother & Sister?

 

I would be interested to know of any big succeses via this method of breeding.

 

 

 

 

[Wiley]

 

Why not Brother & Sister?

 

I would be interested to know of any big succeses via this method of breeding.

 

 

eing a Laffy daffy man, Champion Tommy Tucker came from nest mate pairing

 

 

[Guest TIMBARRA LOFTS]

 

it should have read im not spencer to answer this, as the question the gentleman asked was directed to you, however i gave my view

 

 

hi wiley, your view appreciated mate, no problem , thanks for getting back to me.  

 

[Guest TIMBARRA LOFTS]

 

Why not Brother & Sister?

 

I would be interested to know of any big succeses via this method of breeding.

 

 

 

 

I did not say brother and sister cant breed winners , i just said that both birds should be super spcimens before inbreeding with them, if birds as members have stated bred winners that is then proof that 2 genetic gene pools of very similar material have combined to express the best traits within the 2 individuals.

 

if you wish to know of any big successes, then i suggest kindly chris that my racing record and results speak for themselves ( i am not posting any results as we been there before) and as you have been to my home and bought 2 pigeons from me, you know the quality i have. also for those fanciers who have raced or bred birds from my line, I have a very good knowledge of genetics and breeding methods used by top fanciers, I think if you studied a pedigree you would see patterns emerging, if you cant thats unfortunate, but give me a call and i will discuss this with you as we are all here to help one another , especially those that don't have the knowledge to know about basic breeding principles, I wish you all the best chris.

 

can i ask what your breeding principles are chris ? what characteristics do you look for and what criteria do you base your pigeons selection on..?

 

 

thanks spencer

 

 

[retired]

 

I did not say brother and sister cant breed winners , i just said that both birds should be super spcimens before inbreeding with them, if birds as members have stated bred winners that is then proof that 2 genetic gene pools of very similar material have combined to express the best traits within the 2 individuals.

 

if you wish to know of any big successes, then i suggest kindly chris that my racing record and results speak for themselves ( i am not posting any results as we been there before) and as you have been to my home and bought 2 pigeons from me, you know the quality i have. also for those fanciers who have raced or bred birds from my line, I have a very good knowledge of genetics and breeding methods used by top fanciers, I think if you studied a pedigree you would see patterns emerging, if you cant thats unfortunate, but give me a call and i will discuss this with you as we are all here to help one another , especially those that don't have the knowledge to know about basic breeding principles, I wish you all the best chris.

 

can i ask what your breeding principles are chris ? what characteristics do you look for and what criteria do you base your pigeons selection on..?

 

thanks spencer

 

 

You seem to have taken my question in the wrong light by going defensive, this wasnt the intention but since i have nestmates paired together this season i myself am happy for the feedback from the original thread question???

 

Overall i pair best to best (IMO on paper) and for this year have also attempted pairing as a secondary system by scoring the throats _ my knowledge of this is somewhat limited but i have a good advisor who has practiced this for years.

 

The throat has made me reconsider some of the initial pairings though.

 

With regards to some of the pairings they have been made on performances or line performances - example of this being -

 

BP cock

Sire - 1st Open NRCC Thurso 2006 412 Miles

Dam - 1st Open NRCC Perth 2004 273 Miles

 

Blue Hen

Direct Maurice Matthuews

Winner of 1st Section, 3rd Open NFC St Naziaare (Approx 420 miles)

 

This pairing is based on crossing two sets of succesful pigeons at that distace to try and emulate the previous sucsess.

 

Is there any instances where you have paired brother to sister in your birds? Maybe the Muelemans to retain type and good traits - Dont take the question the wrong way.

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

can i ask what your breeding principles are chris ? what characteristics do you look for and what criteria do you base your pigeons selection on..?

 

I don't know about Chris but mine is quite simple, i look for birds that breed winners, no matter how"superior" they are (and i've had some very "superior" birds in my time, and theres only one way to find them, and talking the talk is not one of them!!

 

Winners and pedigrees do not guarantee winners, otherwise it would be very simple equation (winner x winner= winner), but as we all know thta does not happen, even those that produce many good birds produce bad ones, and thats the trouble with inbreeding in can make the good genes prominent but also the bad ones, and of course there are the physical genetic characteristics (deformaties) that also come with inbreeding, but do not sometimes appear until a generation or so down the road.

 

 

 

[Guest TIMBARRA LOFTS]

 

You seem to have taken my question in the wrong light by going defensive, this wasnt the intention but since i have nestmates paired together this season i myself am happy for the feedback from the original thread question???

 

Overall i pair best to best (IMO on paper) and for this year have also attempted pairing as a secondary system by scoring the throats _ my knowledge of this is somewhat limited but i have a good advisor who has practiced this for years.

 

The throat has made me reconsider some of the initial pairings though.

 

With regards to some of the pairings they have been made on performances or line performances - example of this being -

 

BP cock

Sire - 1st Open NRCC Thurso 2006 412 Miles

Dam - 1st Open NRCC Perth 2004 273 Miles

 

Blue Hen

Direct Maurice Matthuews

Winner of 1st Section, 3rd Open NFC St Naziaare (Approx 420 miles)

 

This pairing is based on crossing two sets of succesful pigeons at that distace to try and emulate the previous sucsess.

 

Is there any instances where you have paired brother to sister in your birds? Maybe the Muelemans to retain type and good traits - Dont take the question the wrong way.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Chris , sorry if you think i was being defensive, that was not meant to appear that way my friend.

What principles do you pair on paper? what do you look for in the pedigree? I think these methods of pairing is fasinating as everyone has different methods.

 

I do not follow or select using the throat selection method, but have read little on it, due to myself finding that good traits as well as bad are hereditary. so using one physical selection tool so to speak is probably as good as any other i guess, i do not know enough on your selection tool to give it comment, sorry.

 

The VDB have been paired brother and sister at a certain time but with specimens of great quality only. and by good if not exceptional fanciers.

 

 

 

I wish you all the best with your season chris and hope you get the desired goals you set out.

 

all the best spence

 

 

[Guest TIMBARRA LOFTS]

 

I don't know about Chris but mine is quite simple, i look for birds that breed winners, no matter how"superior" they are (and i've had some very "superior" birds in my time, and theres only one way to find them, and talking the talk is not one of them!!

 

Winners and pedigrees do not guarantee winners, otherwise it would be very simple equation (winner x winner= winner), but as we all know thta does not happen, even those that produce many good birds produce bad ones, and thats the trouble with inbreeding in can make the good genes prominent but also the bad ones, and of course there are the physical genetic characteristics (deformaties) that also come with inbreeding, but do not sometimes appear until a generation or so down the road.

 

 

 

 

 

very true words Mr Bowler, and very wise words. there are never any guarantee in pigeons, but we can only do our best with whatever resources we have sir. I select on quality and winners included , then put two individuals together with good traits and one of a certain relationship to the other, then I find the off spring have the desired physical traits i am looking for, then the races sort these out for whoever races them, myself or friends.

 

 

kindest regards spencer

 

 

[Guest]

 

 

 

very true words Mr Bowler, and very wise words. there are never any guarantee in pigeons, but we can only do our best with whatever resources we have sir. I select on quality and winners included , then put two individuals together with good traits and one of a certain relationship to the other, then I find the off spring have the desired physical traits i am looking for, then the races sort these out for whoever races them, myself or friends.

 

 

kindest regards spencer

 

 

what all of them, 50% of them 25% of them?

 

Also be interested what you assume to be "superior" quality, including to how many generations or relationships to good birds of that family (ie would you consider a g/somn of a good winner superior?)

 

[gangster]

 

after a few of us got together, bought a good few yb,s from , then , the humberside  stud.. we put a deposit down at the end of the year , the following year , these y,bs averaged at about £15 each,, the yb,s were shared by a few fanciers,,

i topped the fed with one [a de lak ]

another of these fanciers topped a different fed [a de klak]

we decided to pair these two birds together, [without looking at the pedigrees] we split 4 yb,s,,,two each,, my one topped the fed,,it wasnt untill  then we checked the peds,, and to the surprise of both of us ,, these were two" nest mates " mated up i must admit, i would never have did this intentually , especially for racing,,, but the fact remains , a pair of nest mates ,,both topped different feds,bred a pigeon, that also topped the fed   so ,as with pigeons, be sure nothing will surprise you more   it would be very interesting to see if this pair of yours can produce a winner [or  hopefully  two ] wish you the best of luck anyway

 

jimmy igot some top draw de-klaks off ernie owner off humberbridge stud...and i traced them back to the guy in holland who bred them and ive been  a friend hhim and his family....ialso  gave him a  de-klak hen as a gift she bred him a hen that won 5 out of 6 natour races ;) my birds have bred top stuff in holland and uk.....

[Guest TIMBARRA LOFTS]

 

what all of them, 50% of them 25% of them?

 

Also be interested what you assume to be "superior" quality, including to how many generations or relationships to good birds of that family (ie would you consider a g/somn of a good winner superior?)

 

 

Hi Mick, i find by line breeding and inbreeding sir, i am able to fix the desired traits i look for including results and type, on the occasion when a youngster is bred without the desired traits it is desposed of, the more you breed out of pigeons with desired traits through generations, (tested) the less birds you will need to dispose of i find.

 

I deem a pigeon of superior quality one which has desired traits and breeding capacity to produce winners.

A grandson of a good winner can only be deemed superior if he has results or the desired traits you wish to fix within your own colony .

 

I believe the more fanciers breed from proven breeders of winners the better there race birds will be. unless breeding from yearling for the first time , which means the progeny are yet to prove this fact, and shall only be judged by the results gained by the off spring.

 

I breed my birds to type and quality as they were in the 1970s and 80s , as were intended by the original founder of the strain or family. This I have managed to do by learning and speaking with individuals who are well versed on the family i keep, I then select using type as a rule and find with this type winners are produced. But Mick I would like to add all pigeon familys differ in certain ways one to the other.

 

I have the VDB and really am well versed on this family, I cannot comment on other familys i have not studied of the 30 years i have been in the game , sorry.

 

kindest regards spencer

 

 

 

[Guest]

 

 

Hi Mick, i find by line breeding and inbreeding sir, i am able to fix the desired traits i look for including results and type, on the occasion when a youngster is bred without the desired traits it is desposed of, the more you breed out of pigeons with desired traits through generations, (tested) the less birds you will need to dispose of i find.

 

So what % do you dispose of, or are thay all winners?

 

I deem a pigeon of superior quality one which has desired traits and breeding capacity to produce winners.

A grandson of a good winner can only be deemed superior if he has results or the desired traits you wish to fix within your own colony .

 

So if he never been raced or the desired traits (whatever these be), he will never produce winners?

 

I believe the more fanciers breed from proven breeders of winners the better there race birds will be. unless breeding from yearling for the first time , which means the progeny are yet to prove this fact, and shall only be judged by the results gained by the off spring.

 

But surely thats what all birds should be judged on?

 

Also do you believe in consequential gene pooling, where when two gene pools are connected they can produce a winning (superior) gene for that bird, even tho there own is not superior?

[Guest TIMBARRA LOFTS]

 

So what % do you dispose of, or are thay all winners?

 

 

 

So if he never been raced or the desired traits (whatever these be), he will never produce winners?

 

 

 

But surely thats what all birds should be judged on?

 

Also do you believe in consequential gene pooling, where when two gene pools are connected they can produce a winning (superior) gene for that bird, even tho there own is not superior?

 

Hi Mr Bowler,

I dispose of a certain percentage of birds each year as they must be of top grade for myself and others, the percentage I dispose of is very low indeed due to the extreme quality I have bought in from such fanciers as Herman Beverdam, Karel Meulemans, John Kirk.

 

As for pigeons which never race or do not hold desired traits going on to produce winners, these birds can and do breed winners, so is that not the desired trait you look for sir ?

 

but it depends also what you want in your own loft, would you hang a picture in your living room that you did not like ?? I wouldnt. and if it gave me lots of pleasure i would like it even more!!

 

As for consequential gene pooling, i leave nothing to consequence as the same applies .. I never assume.

 

thank you for your imput sir this is such a great topic..

 

regards spencer

 

 

[Guest TIMBARRA LOFTS]

 

So what % do you dispose of, or are thay all winners?

 

 

 

So if he never been raced or the desired traits (whatever these be), he will never produce winners?

 

 

 

But surely thats what all birds should be judged on?

 

Also do you believe in consequential gene pooling, where when two gene pools are connected they can produce a winning (superior) gene for that bird, even tho there own is not superior?

 

Hi Mr Bowler,

I dispose of a certain percentage of birds each year as they must be of top grade for myself and others, the percentage I dispose of is very low indeed due to the extreme quality I have bought in from such fanciers as Herman Beverdam, Karel Meulemans, John Kirk.

 

As for pigeons which never race or do not hold desired traits going on to produce winners, these birds can and do breed winners, so is that not the desired trait you look for sir ?

 

but it depends also what you want in your own loft, would you hang a picture in your living room that you did not like ?? I wouldnt. and if it gave me lots of pleasure i would like it even more!!

 

As for consequential gene pooling, i leave nothing to consequence as the same applies .. I never assume.

 

thank you for your imput sir this is such a great topic..

 

regards spencer

 

 

[Guest]

 

Hi Mr Bowler,

I dispose of a certain percentage of birds each year as they must be of top grade for myself and others, the percentage I dispose of is very low indeed due to the extreme quality I have bought in from such fanciers as Herman Beverdam, Karel Meulemans, John Kirk.

 

So every bird that you keep or sell breeds winners?

 

As for pigeons which never race or do not hold desired traits going on to produce winners, these birds can and do breed winners, so is that not the desired trait you look for sir ?

 

Yes, but you have said these birds would not survive in your loft, due to not having the desired traits or racing results.

 

but it depends also what you want in your own loft, would you hang a picture in your living room that you did not like ?? I wouldnt. and if it gave me lots of pleasure i would like it even more!!

 

But if you had every picture the same, would you still enjoy!

 

As for consequential gene pooling, i leave nothing to consequence as the same applies .. I never assume.

 

Have you never bred good birds from a "surprise" pairing. Virtually every fancier i know has or have had a pair of birds that have been put together (sometimes relatively cheaply) and bred winners, i for one had a cock who was given to me and a hen cost £5, and bred winners to 500 miles, and for at least 3 generations that i could trace.

 

How many top pro soccer stars or any other sports stars do you know where there parents were as good? Not many, so why have they become so good with no previous "superior" genes?

 

thank you for your imput sir this is such a great topic..

 

regards spencer

 

 

 

Yes i agree very!

 

[Guest]

What a great thread, many true words have been said the throut ;)for one.some of the fanciers on here should read the comments made over and over again,but as they say no secrets in this sport B-LL SH-T :-/well done to all who have posted.

[Guest TIMBARRA LOFTS]

 

So every bird that you keep or sell breeds winners?

 

 

 

Yes, but you have said these birds would not survive in your loft, due to not having the desired traits or racing results.

 

 

 

But if you had every picture the same, would you still enjoy!

 

 

 

Have you never bred good birds from a "surprise" pairing. Virtually every fancier i know has or have had a pair of birds that have been put together (sometimes relatively cheaply) and bred winners, i for one had a cock who was given to me and a hen cost £5, and bred winners to 500 miles, and for at least 3 generations that i could trace.

 

How many top pro soccer stars or any other sports stars do you know where there parents were as good? Not many, so why have they become so good with no previous "superior" genes?

 

 

 

 

Yes i agree very!

 

 

Not every bird I have breed winners but most have, I do not have access to my breeding records at the moment so I cannot tell you exactly how many, but can in due course.

 

As for every picture the same would I still enjoy...? yes i would, one in each room would be good i supose.

 

As for surprise pairings these happen and yes its upto what each individual want within the family of birds they keep. I sir have had pigeons of various prices and bred winners and some even not bred winners, the latter being the ones which then have been disposed of, therefore leaving the best breeders to reproduce their qualitys and traits within the family I now have and for those fanciers before me.

 

Also you state that this cock you had for free and a hen bought for £5 bred winners for generations upto 500mls, these are then super breeders and are carriers of the best traits for which he was possibly bred. and this is proven in your statement that 500mile winners appeared in generations in the pedigree, which is my point exactly, it has nothing to do with how much they cost,

 

I should think you are a very knowledgable fancier with lots of wins behind your career, I do not need or ask for your results, your conversation is so very refreshing and welcomed.

 

[Guest]

 

 

Also you state that this cock you bought for £5 bred winners for generations upto 500mls, this is then a super breeder and is a carrier of the best traits for which he was possibly bred. and this is proven in your statement that 500mile winners appeared in generations in the pedigree, which is my point exactly, it has nothing to do with how much he cost,

 

 

 

No mate i meant these birds were responsible for generations of winners, not bred from. The cock was bred by someone who had not won a race in all the time i knew him. The hen was bought at a charity sale, no pedigree, but why only a fiver, The owner was a joke! I bought it cos it was a grizzle! They had no traits, no proven form, just luck i suppose!

 

 

I have to say over the years i have known some top guys, top fanciers, and most would say that if you could breed a winner in 10 they would be happy, so you must be a very happy man.

[Guest]

Timbarra, what are the deisred traits that you look for?

[Guest TIMBARRA LOFTS]

 

 

No mate i meant these birds were responsible for generations of winners, not bred from. The cock was bred by someone who had not won a race in all the time i knew him. The hen was bought at a charity sale, no pedigree, but why only a fiver, The owner was a joke! I bought it cos it was a grizzle! They had no traits, no proven form, just luck i suppose!

 

 

I have to say over the years i have known some top guys, top fanciers, and most would say that if you could breed a winner in 10 they would be happy, so you must be a very happy man.

 

Mr Bowler, if the birds have been responsible for generations of winners then I think you would be a happier man than many with your eye for mating 2 individuals and generating the results you had in doing so.

 

In ref to the hen having no pedigree .. I would love to have known her lineage and the cock also, every fancier is different and some do well and some dont, as long as your happy with the bird or birds obtained that is what matters i think.

 

I do have in my stock loft a cock that has sired 8 different Federation winners with different hens, i think many top fanciers would be more than happy with this bird, he has winners in his pedigree for every generation going back to the super couple of Karel Meulemans, so I am a very happy man yes , and thank you for your kind words.

 

I do also have a cock that i have kept on my loft for 5 years without breeding from him, he has no racing record, i kept him and retained him as he is a son of my number 1 hen and she is responsible for 4 generations of winning birds for me and others. This cock was bred from for the first time in 2007 and the 2 youngsters from him both won !!  I have not bred from him since as i do not breed loads of birds sir, the cocks sire which was a 94 pigeon won 1 card in competition and the sire of the 94 pigeon bred 34 1st prize winners !!  i owned this cock also. So i do believe lineage is a thing we can rely on , but just sometines exceptions do crop up, but in these exceptions the pigeons have winners in their ancestry, would you not agree ?  

 

kindest regards spencer

 

 

[thunderboult]

spencer have you tried your birds in the british one loft races, if so how've they done. thanks.