Natural Yogurt

[Guest IB]

 

European studies found the same kind of results. Astro BioBest yogurt started with the most - 794 million live bacterial cultures per gram (175 grams per container or 139 billion per container). But near the end of shelf life, almost two-thirds had died (794 to 260 million per gram or falling from 139 to 50 billion per container). Organic Meadow (100 to 6 million per gram) and Danone (180 to 120 million per gram or 32 to 21 billion per container) stayed above the million mark on each test. Liberty yogurt fared the worst, starting off low at just 118,000 live bacterial cultures per gram — and dropping to just 4,000 after two weeks.

 

Just as a follow-on to your post Tony - this is a relevant bit of a previous post of mine - knowing how many micro-organisms you start with is only half the equation, you need to know also how many 'survivors' you need to have any benefit from giving a probiotic.

 

Also as a follow-on to Owen's post, knowing which strains are most likely to survive the stomach acid is also helpful, because the label will tell you what is in it. Survivability is also covered in this bit too:-

 

Survival and colonization of probiotics in the gut.

 

Survival differs according to species and strain. Some are destroyed as soon as they pass into the stomach, while others survive to be recovered in faeces. The yogurt bacteria  Lactobacillus delbruekii bulgaricus and Streptococcus thermophilus have low tolerance to acid and are destroyed within a few minutes. (The stomach has a Ph approaching 1 - the most acidic category).

 

A count of 100,000 - a viable concentration of starter bacteria - has been observed in the small intestine (survivors from 10,000,000 eaten in 430g of yogurt). Lactococcus lactis had a low survival there because of low tolerance to acid and bile.  Some  Bifidobacteria and Lactobacillus plantarum NCIB 8826 eaten in yogurt,  have a significant rate of survival in faeces with faecal concentrations greater than 100,000,000 per gram. Lactobacillus acidophilus, reuteri, and  rhamnosus faecal concentrations were 1,000,000 per gram. In humans, 1 gram a day of Saccharomyces boulardii  faecal concentrations were 100,000 per gram.

 

Probiotics are usually excreted in faeces a few days after they are eaten. Some colonization of the gut lining has been observed. The concentrations of microorganisms passing through the gut after a probiotic are often as large as those seen during chronic bacterial infection.

 

Stands to reason then a probiotic may be a better way of tackling a bacterial infection, 'man-for-man'.

[Guest]

Lucky to have found them !!!

Nice answer.     My family have been in the health food industry for over thirty years and in the early days when we encouraged people to buy yoghurt covered peanuts and pro-biotics we were called nutcases and witch-doctors, looks like we weren't so stupid as people thought.   8)

 

 

[Guest slugmonkey]

People need to understand te diffrences between foods with active cultures and the processed pasteurized crap at the supermarket as well

[Guest]

I flew pigeons in the sixties. We never treated them for diseases, or had young bird sickness. And most Clubs would have a 12 bird limit because you would not need to race any more. Pigeons were lost, but very few indeed.

Is it the poor quality of feed that is causing us these problems?

 

Owen enjoy your posts, always good to read fanciers thoughts and how they come to their conclusions and this has been a very good thread with differing views. Don't wish to take it away from 'live yoghurt' but I use pro biotics, and being the renegade I am I use those produced for horses. My misses who is a scientist and manages a medical centre goes mad with me she asks how I know the dosage rate and how I know there aren't composite parts that aren't dangerous. I don't but they are loads cheaper and the birds have flown well enough at the distance on them!

But coming back Owen, the birds aren't as good as they were for consitency, I became sec of a pigeon club back in 71 but wasn't a pigeon fancier. The difference then was the birds were tested by the basket there were very few foreign birds in the valleys, the birds were bred to come the good steady pigeons that flew the norh road in to the sw winds. Today we have all the imprts we've nearly wiped out the good old stayers, there is no doubt the top pigeons are faster but they don't have the constitution and they aslo have to cope with modern diseases that had nnot arrived back in those days. I started up in 1979, my first yb race was from Ludlow or Shrewsbury can't remember which now, Welsh North Rd Fed 28,000 birds, living at Merthyr one of the shorter flyers in the Fed, as a new starter I sent about 30, probably had 20 within an hour of the winner (me ;D) but had yb coming back 8 oclock that evening from a 7 am lib by the end of the day I was one missing and it came back next day! Hawks were not a real issue, having said that by 1984, there were 3 pairs within 6 mile of my loft at the old quarries above Cefn Coed

[Guest]

People need to understand te diffrences between foods with active cultures and the processed pasteurized crap at the supermarket as well

That's why we opened health shops.  

 

 

[gorsy bank lofts]

as probiotics go i use entrodex,if you think bacteria dies when its dry leave entrodex in water for 2-3 days in hot weather and you will see the bacteria grow.

 

 

[distancer]

The reason I use Versel Laga is because I have visited their factory.The way that it is bought in , sorted, put into different types is amazing. also they have their own scientists working within the factory at all stages checking the process for contamination, and looking at better ways for improving production and satisfying the needs of all fancies.Their products provide for all types of events that can affect a pigeons ability to race.The bags that go out of the factory are all ioned with an inner plastic lining to keep the produce fresh and clean.I am not saying that other products are any less benefit for those who choose to use them, and that is it, it is a matter of choice.And I have won and come nowhere in races using versele Laga, I trust their products because I have taken the time to look at them at scource, maybe they do sell their products a so called fancy prices, but then again it is also down to the individual fancier to look at what they are or are not doing to keep their birds at the top.Good corn,water,grit, a small team, that is what works for me, and I have won some great races over the channel,thanks to my choice of Versele Laga, and my own efforts. ;D ;D ;D ;D

[Guest Owen]

You could well be right about your views on probiotics but I am not convinced. At one time I reared calves and I found out the hard way, that milk could cause real problems. Later I bought a herd of goats and sold the milk to children. It was frozen and delivered weekly. Most of my customers could not handle bovine milk and milk products. My surplus was fed to weak calves I bought cheaply at Hereford Market. If was a great success because I have known calves that were scouring brought back to health. If I had used cow's milk they would have died. Cow's milk will kill kittens and puppies. Lambs do badly on it and a lot die. I have found no real proof that probiotics from a bovine source, work. I have tried many things with pigeons and other livestock and I have found that a lot of things claiming to promote health are just not what they are made out to be. It is usually hype, aimed at selling someone's products. I believe that it is best to study the sort of diet the animal or bird would choose for itself, if it were wild and build on that. Originally, I suffered very badly with YBS and I have had them dead on the floor in the morning. In desperation I used probiotics and yogurt but I still lost birds. And yes, I used antibiotics that the Vet gave me. And they were not very effective because a lot of the birds got over their illness but were not much good afterwards. These days I do not use cider vinegar, probiotics or antibiotics. And I would'nt dream of useing anything that came from a cow. Occasionally I have a young pigeon go off colour but not seriously ill like I used to have in the past.

So in conclusion, I will accept that many will carry on using what ever they think is right, and I will do the same without resorting to magic potions that did not work for me.  

[Guest]

 

If it's live yogurt then yes.... most has died before shelf life and before leaving the shop / supermarket. So then obviously no good. As for drinking water why  :-/ it's dead any way so the water won't harm it. Still won't do any good though   ;D

If it's a dead yogurt then it's can be of any use. If livefine, it is for humans and useless for pigeons. It is no more thn a Fancier 'Feel Good / Steal a March factor.

Flightpath and suh obviously is better ad is for pigeons.

ill tell that to my stock birds  :-/

 

 

[Guest briancol]

you could well be right. im not one for giving all these additives just because of hear-say.

[Tony C]

You could well be right about your views on probiotics but I am not convinced. At one time I reared calves and I found out the hard way, that milk could cause real problems. Later I bought a herd of goats and sold the milk to children. It was frozen and delivered weekly. Most of my customers could not handle bovine milk and milk products. My surplus was fed to weak calves I bought cheaply at Hereford Market. If was a great success because I have known calves that were scouring brought back to health. If I had used cow's milk they would have died. Cow's milk will kill kittens and puppies. Lambs do badly on it and a lot die. I have found no real proof that probiotics from a bovine source, work. I have tried many things with pigeons and other livestock and I have found that a lot of things claiming to promote health are just not what they are made out to be. It is usually hype, aimed at selling someone's products. I believe that it is best to study the sort of diet the animal or bird would choose for itself, if it were wild and build on that. Originally, I suffered very badly with YBS and I have had them dead on the floor in the morning. In desperation I used probiotics and yogurt but I still lost birds. And yes, I used antibiotics that the Vet gave me. And they were not very effective because a lot of the birds got over their illness but were not much good afterwards. These days I do not use cider vinegar, probiotics or antibiotics. And I would'nt dream of useing anything that came from a cow. Occasionally I have a young pigeon go off colour but not seriously ill like I used to have in the past.

So in conclusion, I will accept that many will carry on using what ever they think is right, and I will do the same without resorting to magic potions that did not work for me.  

 

Blue Tits drinking the cream through milk bottle tops?

 

[Guest]

You could well be right about your views on probiotics but I am not convinced. At one time I reared calves and I found out the hard way, that milk could cause real problems. Later I bought a herd of goats and sold the milk to children. It was frozen and delivered weekly. Most of my customers could not handle bovine milk and milk products. My surplus was fed to weak calves I bought cheaply at Hereford Market. If was a great success because I have known calves that were scouring brought back to health. If I had used cow's milk they would have died. Cow's milk will kill kittens and puppies. Lambs do badly on it and a lot die. I have found no real proof that probiotics from a bovine source, work. I have tried many things with pigeons and other livestock and I have found that a lot of things claiming to promote health are just not what they are made out to be. It is usually hype, aimed at selling someone's products. I believe that it is best to study the sort of diet the animal or bird would choose for itself, if it were wild and build on that. Originally, I suffered very badly with YBS and I have had them dead on the floor in the morning. In desperation I used probiotics and yogurt but I still lost birds. And yes, I used antibiotics that the Vet gave me. And they were not very effective because a lot of the birds got over their illness but were not much good afterwards. These days I do not use cider vinegar, probiotics or antibiotics. And I would'nt dream of useing anything that came from a cow. Occasionally I have a young pigeon go off colour but not seriously ill like I used to have in the past.

So in conclusion, I will accept that many will carry on using what ever they think is right, and I will do the same without resorting to magic potions that did not work for me.  

 

Owen I'm always fascinated by ybs I have never had it (thought I had two seasons ago but was actually canker) how do you no longer get it if you use no magic potions, not a challenge would be interested to know what you do?

[Guest]

You could well be right about your views on probiotics but I am not convinced.

Owen, you must be respected for your opinions but if its any consolation the use of pro-biotics and the dramatic effect they are having on treating various illness's is one of the few 'alternative' medicines to actually have scientific support.  There is so much crap floating about regarding treatments of YBS but in truth most of them don't work.   The one thing going for pro-biotics is their very nature and what they do by encouraging the bodies own natural anti-biotics to flourish thus creating a very uncomfortable envioronment for the bad biotics to exist in.  Because of that this reduces the level of effect the biotic responsible for YBS has on the birds and this combined with a stress free enviorenment will go a long way to preventing outbreaks.

 

You'll never be 100% safe from an outbreak because as with all living organisms they have an ability to mutate but so do pro-biotics.   Anyway, enough of me being on my soap box, clearly I'm a big fan of them, in human and pigeon life, they work for me.  

 

 

[Guest Owen]

JarGre

I accept your view. As I said earlier I have suffered badly with YBS. And I tried everything that I could think of at the time. The Vet's fees were something else, and I would'nt have minded but his remedies did'nt work either. Mind you I have to admit to being very suspicious of Vets before I started. Me and Vets have a very checkered history going back a lot of years. But, that is a tale I will tell you some other time.

From my standpoint, I am only prepared to look at facts and evidence in regard to this subject and I will not be swayed by advertising blurb or opinions of other people. I have come from a situation where I had severe sickness to a position today where I get nothing. And during that period I have given all the remedies, I have known about, a fair trial. That is from crop flushing to the use of antibiotics as a preventitive measure. And, by the way, I hardly ever use antibiotics these days. I have found that they do more harm than good in the longer run.  

At some time or other I have used probiotics of all sorts. Some like Yakalt were for people and I used Enrodex which has been especially produced for pigeons. At least that is what the label said. I even bought the book written by the founder of the firm. Believe me, I have really tried both to understand how probiotics work and how to feed it to the birds. Sometimes there has been improvement, which was encouraging at the time, only to find that the sickness was back again. My conclusion on probiotics is that it may help to produce condition in the birds which in turn will help them to stay healthy. But as a preventitive or a cure it can not be relied on.

I have not the time right now to write more on the subject, but I promise I will explain what I have done to reduce YBS in my loft to insignificant levels. I will not claim that, just like kids at school, my birds don't get a very slight infection but it is nothing much and they are up and at it again within 24 hours.

Best regards

Owen    

[Guest]

JarGre

I accept your view.  From my standpoint, I am only prepared to look at facts and evidence in regard to this subject and I will not be swayed by advertising blurb or opinions of other people.

Hi Owen, I'll dig up some information for you to try and at least show you why certain things work and others won't, will send you p.m or easier still perhaps a chat over the phone some time, that's sometimes much easier than trying to put it in words.  

 

[Guest]

Hi Owen, I'll dig up some information for you to try and at least show you why certain things work and others won't, will send you p.m or easier still perhaps a chat over the phone some time, that's sometimes much easier than trying to put it in words.  

Kevin, Y do you bother let them get on with it,i use it all the time and can't knock it as i am a feather merchant and need my birds in a1 condition

 

 

[Guest]

Kevin, Y do you bother let them get on with it,i use it all the time and can't knock it as i am a feather merchant and need my birds in a1 condition

 

I hadn't actually read all his post fullly and thought I was helping someone but see from re-reading it that no matter what I or anyone else says it isn't going to change Owens mind.  :-/  :'(  :X  I think I'll take your advice, shut my gob and concentrate on my own birds instead, they ain't doing to bad either.     8)