Drug resistant Canker

[Guest]

Carl:

 

"Ok bruno your birds are healthy but what about when they come in contact with unhealthy birds in the basket,are you telling me that they wont catch nothing from a unhealthy bird because you have a good health regieme and you feed them garlic."

 

 

No, Carl, the good health regieme and feeding garlic are secondary to the birds own immune system. Immunity is conferred by previous natural exposure to the organism or artificial exposure to a less dangerous form of it.

 

The best example is human vaccination. Before you go on holiday, or move to work in certain countries you are advised to get innoculated against certain diseases which you are likely to meet there, the principle being the immune system then has a record and a defence against these disease causing organisms, which will come naturally into play immediately you are exposed to them. Same principle applies to birds in the basket.

 

Medication does the opposite. It may destroy the organism, but by doing the immune system's job for it, the person (or bird) is still defenceless against the next encounter. An antibiotic improperly used is also more likely to confer immunity on the disease causing organism. And that applies for all treatments right across the animal kingdom, look at Red Mite and its 'resistance' to Duramitex conferred by its constant use over 40+ years.

 

And I agree with you that this 'preventative' practice will cause future problems, but some of these problems are with us now for example Canker resistance for the last   15 years or so, and cocci and worm treatments damaging the pigeon's gut wall, known since 1960's.

 

Different species and strains of these organisms can and do exchange properties with each other, and stack-up megaprobs for the future. I think our worst nightmare would be previously friendly bacteria turning into disease-causing nightmares... through humans meddling in and with things they don't fully understand.

 

And I feel it is also unfortunate that the 'preventative' practice has become so rigidly associated with 'the way to win' i.e. no other way to win.  

[ribble]

if iwas to go down the road of not treating i wouldn't worry about cleaning out or anything.then it would be natural immunity.giving garlic is not natural....

[Mike Lycett]

Our birds get treated for canker in the racing season 2-3 times.  About every 4 weeks roughly.   What's the big deal?    Canker's the easiest single thing that'll knock your birds off form.   Handling, looking aint no good.   Canker lives & breeds in the crop.  You gotta tackle it.  Use a different base every cycle (i.e carnidazole, metronidazole, etc....) to improve effectiveness

 

Boing Boing

 

Mike

[ribble]

shame on you!!!!!!!!!!only kidding.

[Guest]

Chris Gordon who topped the national this year makes a good point regarding garlic etc

 

With due respect to Chris Gordon his 'good point on garlic' is less than informed. Here are the findings from people with the biochemistry background and the reference laboratories and facilities to state categorically what garlic can and can't do:

 

 

Anthelmintic properties (ie against worms)

 

Parasitic worms are also apparently susceptible to garlic. The World Health Organisation “Monographs on Selected Medicinal Plants” reports garlic has having been used to treat roundworm (Ascaris strongyloides) and hookworm (Ancylostoma caninum and Necator americanus) infestations, listing allicin as the active anthelmintic constituent (4).

 

Antiparasitic properties

 

The antiparasitic nature of garlic is demonstrated in the uses to which it has been applied in folk medicines around the world. For example, it has been traditionally used to treat parasitic worms in such diverse cultures as East Asia, India, Italy, North America, Peru, Saudi Arabia, Tunisia and the West Indies. Traditional practitioners in Greece have long used garlic extracts to protect against amoebic infections (9).

 

 

Anitiviral properties

 

The United States Department of Agriculture lists garlic as being a viricide on its Medicinal Plant Database (7).

 

 

Effective Antimicrobial

 

Laboratory tests (both in test tubes and in animals) have demonstrated that fresh garlic has antimicrobial activities (including antibacterial, antiviral, antifungal, antiprotozoal, and antiparasitic) (1) (5) (9).

 

Particular activity against B. subtilis, E. coli, P. mirabilis, Salmonella typhi, methicillin-resistant Staph aureus, Staph faecalis, salmonella enteritidis, and V. cholerae have been noted (1) (5). Bacteria shown to be susceptible to garlic in the test tube include species from Staphylococcus, Escherichia, Proteus, Salmonella, Providencia, Citrobacter, Klebsiella, Hafnia, Aeromonas, Vibrio and Bacillus genera (5). Human trials as well as in vitro studies have shown that garlic consumption is active against Mycobacterium tuberculosis (9).

 

 

The full article is on Racing Pigeons 'Garlic Raw' and from it you'll see its effective against trichomonas too. Without side effects and without compromising the birds immune system.

[Guest]

What's the big deal?    Boing Boing

 

Mike

 

 

No big deal Mike. Just a few fanciers creating frankenstein superbugs in pigeon lofts. Nothing to get up tight about.

[Silverdale Lofts]

 

 

No big deal Mike. Just a few fanciers creating frankenstein superbugs in pigeon lofts. Nothing to get up tight about.

 

all the top fanciers in the uk belgium holland  creating frankenstein bugs in pigeon lofts they all treat and win races

[kaybee]

i treat for canker and cocci before and during the racing season as the last thing you would want is a problem during racing when every second counts. those fanciers that dont treat are taking one big chance that i wouldnt. i certainly wouldnt look after the race team all year for it to go off midway through the racing

[slatey]

Hi all

First time on this forum.

I treat every 3 to 4 weeks for canker with diffrent products in racing season yes i may be blind treating but it works for me.

tomo

[Silverdale Lofts]

Welcome slatey enjoy the forum

[jimmy white]

WHY TREAT IF THEVE NOT GOT ANYTHING WRONG WITH THEM, OK TREAT, IF THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG WITH THEM , THE ONLY WAY TO FIND OUT IF THERES SOMETHING WRONG WITH THEM IS HAVE THEIR DROPPINGS TESTED REGULARLY AND HAVE SWABS TAKEN REGULARLY ,,,,MIND YOU IF THEIR WINNING , ,JUST WIN REGULARLY IF WE TREAT WILLY NILLY, WERE LOWERING THE BIRDS RESISTENCE, AND YOULL HAVE TO KEEP TREATING, THIS HAS BEEN PROOVED WITH ANTIBIOTICS .

ONLY MY OPINION

      WELCOME TO THE FORUM SLATEY, YOULL FIND IT GREAT

[Guest]

Welcome to the Forum, Slatey

[Guest]

If this were human beings we were talking about, going to the doctor every 4/5 weeks with a recurring infection, it would be patently obvious that something was far wrong when the infection was not responding even to prescribed medication. You'd probably end up being seen by a specialist consultant and be subject to all sorts of tests and background checks including your home, lifestyle and daily contacts to find out what was at the root of your medical problem.

 

Treating trichomonas every 4/5 weeks with 'antibiotics' is just like you going to the doctor every 4/5 weeks with a recurring infection. Treatment might kill a few, but those that are left go on to develop resistance to that whole class of 'antibiotic'. These resistant trich then reproduce almost immediately (asexually, one organism simply splits down the middle to become two). You now have twice as many drug-resistant organisms and in 4/5 weeks you're back to the same level as before, only twice the problem they were 4/5 weeks earlier, they're now well on there way to becoming superbugs which neither medicine nor the bird's immune system can shift.

 

Like begets like. Birds with compromised immune systems are likely to breed youngsters with compromised immune systems, requiring a lifetimes propping up with medicines. Rather than passing on winning genes, your family is more likely to be passing on defective constitutions. That is likely to cause future performance problems for that family, as well as a big drop in value. I certainly won't be buying any.

 

 

 

 

[kaybee]

5 generations of winners from a cock that is only 6 years old would suggest that there is not much wrong with the constitution or more importantly with performances. Stockmanship and racing are a totally different issue and what is practised on the race team will not neccesarily be practiced with the stock birds. Breeding club and fed winners for other fanciers would also suggest that these birds can and most definitly do rise to the top under all different types of loft management.

As far as buying these type of birds goes Bruno, not many fanciers will gaurantee their birds will produce prizewinners if bought in pairs for breeding. I will. Could u do the same about the progeny of your super constitutional birds or are they just the same as mine. RACING PIGEONS that are treated differently    

[carl]

5 generations of winners from a cock that is only 6 years old would suggest that there is not much wrong with the constitution or more importantly with performances. Stockmanship and racing are a totally different issue and what is practised on the race team will not neccesarily be practiced with the stock birds. Breeding club and fed winners for other fanciers would also suggest that these birds can and most definitly do rise to the top under all different types of loft management.

As far as buying these type of birds goes Bruno, not many fanciers will gaurantee their birds will produce prizewinners if bought in pairs for breeding. I will. Could u do the same about the progeny of your super constitutional birds or are they just the same as mine. RACING PIGEONS that are treated differently    

 

 

Kaybee well said i must say,

 

[Guest]

Kaybee, the subject we are discussing is pigeons with drug-resistant canker and how it came about. Expert opinion says this was due to frequent medication and their advice is that the practice should be stopped.

 

I stand by what I said: medication is likely to lead to generations of offsping with compromised immune systems. I wouldn't buy them for the simple reason that they are likely to be carrying drug-resistant bugs AND unusually susceptible to any other bug that's about.

 

I take your point about stock & race birds, but unless one lot lives on Mars and the other on the Moon, there is likely to be cross-infection between them. And it is strains of superbugs we are talking about.

 

The only thing I guarantee about my birds is that they are healthy and their health is maintained in a way which does not compromise them, me, other people or their birds.

 

I note your performances. I do expect my birds to win and that's the goal I'm working for.

[Mike Lycett]

Tell you something Bruno, there's nowt wrong with our birds.  They are available for any form of inspection any day.   Saturday afternoons are best

[Guest]

Tell you something Bruno, there's nowt wrong with our birds.  They are available for any form of inspection any day.   Saturday afternoons are best

 

earlier : -----

 

Our birds get treated for canker in the racing season 2-3 times.  About every 4 weeks roughly.   What's the big deal?    Canker's the easiest single thing that'll knock your birds off form.   Handling, looking aint no good.   Canker lives & breeds in the crop.  You gotta tackle it.  Use a different base every cycle (i.e carnidazole, metronidazole, etc....) to improve effectiveness

 

 

 

If there's nowt wrong with your birds, why do you need to treat them every 4 weeks?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MsPigeon]

 

I take your point about stock & race birds, but unless one lot lives on Mars and the other on the Moon, there is likely to be cross-infection between them. And it is strains of superbugs we are talking about.

 

I don't wish to get into this debat but I just had some information to add about the nature of the disease. The microscopic single-celled organisms, Trichomonas columbae protozoans, that cause canker can only survive for a few minutes once outside the bird. Birds cannot become infected from the loft or immediate enviroment. It is spread between birds, transmitted by saliva or pigeon milk. Saliva cantaminates food and water, adult birds billing and parents feeding their babies are usually how the organisms are transmitted.

Yours in the sport.

Carol

 

 

[slatey]

bruno

If flyers choose to medicate every 3 to 4 weeks cank/cocci/worms/resp or whatever its what you call a system and they wont change that for you are anyone else.

[Mike Lycett]

Bruno

 

I'd guess that at least 355 days of the year its nothing but clear water in our drinkers.  We treat for worms once a year, cocci once a year, & canker when we see fit. No bird on our garden has ever been treated for respiratory & our performances suggest that something isn't too far adrift.

We would treat for canker twice a racing season normally with OB's.  Simple motto that's applied with crop canker is "prevention is better than cure".

In 2005 our average entry was NINE pigeons with OB's.  YBs - dunno, but I'd guess it to be about 12-15.  We won 16 x 1st & about the same in 2nd's and 3rd's and currently have the Reigning Sprint Champion of the West Midlands in our lofts.

I'm happy with how we look after our birds.  It suits us, & it suits our birds.  May not be your cup of tea, but that's fine by me

 

Mike

 

[Guest]

I agree with Mike, find a system that suits your birds - whether it's medication, feeding or motivation and stick to it. Don't fix what isn't broke just because someone tells you they do something else. Corn and plain water may work for some, medicating at certain times may work for others - many roads lead to rome.

I honestly believe that canker comes down to over crowding, poor management and high stress levels, and if you get them sorted canker isn't a problem.

 

I personally have not used canker treatment since the year I started when i had far too many youngbirds (over crowding) for the space I had - poor managemant being a novice at the beginning. What I do use however a couple of times a season is Gem's Trikanox a herbal supplement to keep the canker count down. I was highest prize winner in Godalming DFC this year, won the Surrey Fed averages and the SMT Combine averages aswell as results like 1st Sect, 2nd Open BICC Saran and clocking on the day from Pau in the NFC so the birds are very healthy. I give my birds plenty of space and plenty of fresh air which I feel are more important than medication.

However this is my system and it suits me, but might not suit others so I say find what works for you.

 

This is just my opinion and I do not wish to offend anyone as I very rarely post anything more than 4 lines but found once I got going I couldn't shut up (hehe).

 

Enjoy your racing in 2006!!

[Guest]

What do they say Rose you are only as clean as your dirtiest member in the club!!

[Guest slugmonkey]

I think I am one of the dirtiest members in my club I fly deep litter and only scrape occasionaly when I want to know before races how droppings from individuals look I change waterers out when they are empty my racing lofts have 4-6 inches of old straw and droppings in them I am also one of the healthiest flyers and driest in club I havent had a case of canker in 3+ years now I am sure it would show if tested for but it dosent seem to be a problem so I dont treat for it if I lose babies it is because a snake or critter got them I dont have babies dying or one eye colds or a lot of respitory problems either I kill mice and give cider vinegar and garlic I do use a 5 in 1 medication 2 weeks before season starts but that is more for worms than any other I havent gave anything except vinegar and garlic and vitamins or supplements since last august I would gladly let anyone come here and look over the 400+ birds and try to find a sick one if they are dry and undercrowded they dont get sick my advice if you are getting canker either cull or add more space

[Guest slugmonkey]

I also dont belive that having the vet test is the way to go unless you have a problem just because a bird shows that they are hosting an organism dosent mean they are sick from it I WANT my birds exposed to various ailments that is what keeps them healthy if you put a bird with a compromised immune system here they die soon after arrival I have a Quarintine section that I keep a few pumpers and old birds in and it is amazing how I buy a bird at auction that looks healthy and a week later they are feet up in there when I buy expensive birds I leave them by themselves for about 3 months and let them work into the flock SLOWLY this lets them build immunity and also doset release any medication resistant strains on my birds