Guest Posted November 8, 2005 Report Share Posted November 8, 2005 Greengrass The only Lemsip which has been beneficial to me is the one laced with Glenfiddich <VBG> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 8, 2005 Report Share Posted November 8, 2005 Has anyone heard about Blackpool show still on or not? Our show in North East, (NEHU Show) is cancelled but Rotherham show is still on, it will be NO show pigeons, and pigeons at the markets, but i don't understand why auction birds still ahead, can anyone explain why to me please? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 8, 2005 Report Share Posted November 8, 2005 Hyacinth!! Shame on you. Lemsip & Glenfiddich? Utter sacrilage. ;D Only thing you are allowed to put in Glenfiddich is another one. 8) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 8, 2005 Report Share Posted November 8, 2005 Speight, bit lost on the thinking too. Can't understand why no shows, but auctions go ahead, except no auctions at shows?Would have thought a lot less people handle birds at shows...so less risk of spreading virus than at an auction. Need a Vet present at shows, but not at auctions. If a Vet is needed why not a medical doctor too..with a stock of anti-virals and the local hospitals on standby? As I said, bit lost on the thinking behind this. But in my opinion it is the typical result of the 'wait and see wait till somebody tells us' mentality. You usually get landed with something you don't want. A bit of foresight and prevention and these actions might have been avoided. End of moan for the month of November!! ;D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Davy Fleming Posted November 9, 2005 Report Share Posted November 9, 2005 Good news for all fanciers is the fact that the dreaded Avian Flu has now been put into the low risk category for pigeons, you are now able to obtain a licence from your LOCAL HEALTH OFFICE to possible enable you to have your annual shows anyone with a problem with this please get in touch CHEERS LADS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Davy Fleming Posted November 9, 2005 Report Share Posted November 9, 2005 SORRY,folks just made a slight mistake you must apply to your local ANIMAL health office and not your health office .ANY PROBLEMS GIVE ME A CALL ON 07961441470 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 9, 2005 Report Share Posted November 9, 2005 Sorry Rose. One and only time got to disagree with you !!!!!! ;D Don't need ANY excuse for a bottle of Glenfiddich ;D ;D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 10, 2005 Report Share Posted November 10, 2005 BBC1 Scotland Lunchtime News ran an item on wild fowlers sampling wild migratory birds for avian flu on the Forth. Bit of a shock to discover it was at Kincardine, spitting distance away from me on the other side of the river. :-/ Again, although wild fowler was wearing 'white gloves' this time while taking samples, the dog was being used to retrieve these birds. > The man obviously wasn't very knowledgeable on avian flu or its spread - he like others are still looking to the East, as he said there was no avian flu west of the Urals, which is only about 6 European countries wrong. Also one of the birds he bagged was from Alaska - he was dismissive of it, obviously unaware that Canada has discovered unexpectedly high levels of avian flu in its wild migratory birds, many of which come down from Alaska. To me, the authorities seem to be acting on the premise that 'there's no avian flu in wild birds till we find it' rather than 'there's a good chance these birds are carrying it' because there isn't the correct level of caution being applied when they use amateurs to take samples from wild birds for something that could kill humans. And while I have mentioned only wild migratory birds, please remember that currently, no-one yet knows for definite how avian flu spreads from country-to-country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmy white Posted November 13, 2005 Report Share Posted November 13, 2005 panorama, tonight [sunday] questions and answers bird flu. 10,15 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE FIFER Posted November 13, 2005 Report Share Posted November 13, 2005 yes njust been watching it jimmy, not much wiser, still putting a lot of fear into people i think, but then again its maybe for safety, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
THE FIFER Posted November 13, 2005 Report Share Posted November 13, 2005 I THINK SPEIGHT ITS TO DO WITH MIXING BIRDS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 14, 2005 Report Share Posted November 14, 2005 Watched both the Panorama programs. Thought the 1st week would have frightened the life out of even the best informed. Didn't like medics discussing how they had sly personal stashes of Tamiflu. Made me wonder if they'd appreciate a personal stash of H5N1 to go with them. > Thought 2nd week was reasonable and fairly balanced around health issues ... until the pigeon twerp spoke. Of all the things that could have been said or asked about pigeons (there were said to be losts of emails from ordinary pigeon folks) why was the only question (from the RPRA!) about the loss of money from cancelled sales? Like I said before, some at the top appear absolutely clueless that this is a public health issue..and talking about 'loss of sales' will hardly reassure the public that we are prepared to play our part. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 14, 2005 Report Share Posted November 14, 2005 Email from Gordon Chalmers today. Basically confirms what we already know on this forum, that H5N1 can infect and cause illness in pigeons. Subject: Fw: Avian Influenza From: "Gord Chalmers" <gacdvm@telus.net> Date: Mon, November 14, 2005 5:14 pm Friends: This is some further very recent information from Dr David Swayne to clarify his earlier comments on pigeons and avian influenza, after I had unintentionally misinterpreted some of his information - for which I apologise sincerely. He was replying to an Email from Dr Pascal Lanneau of Belgium, and copied his reply to me. It is highly important in this day and age of public concern about avian influenza, pigeons and humans, to be sure that the information on this subject is up to date and correct. I hope this Email will help to do just that. Sincerely, Gordon. PS - 'LPAI' refers to 'Low Pathogenicity Avian Influenza'; 'HPAI' refers to 'Highly Pathogenic Avian Influenza'. ----- Original Message ----- From: David Swayne To: 'Pascal Lanneau' Cc: Gord Chalmers Sent: Monday, November 14, 2005 4:53 AM Subject: RE: Avian Influenza Dear Dr. Lanneau The email I sent to Dr. Chalmers is factually correct, the commentary he placed on my statements are not within the context which I had answered his questions over 4 months ago. The original questions he sent me were: A nearby city of close to 1 million people (Calgary, Alberta, Canada) is proposing a bylaw to ban pigeons on the basis of their concerns about Avian Influenza, etc.. I have been asked to respond to these concerns, so was wondering if there is anything new from your research on the strain that was allegedly causing illness in pigeons and school children in SE Asia. I'd be grateful if you could provide any update on the virus and its relationship to illness in pigeons. Many thanks for any help you can offer. Kind regards, Gord Chalmers, DVM. My response was: Dr. Kaleta recently published review of Avian Influenza (AI) in pigeons and concluded, as I also believe, that pigeons are resistant to avian influenza viruses and have not been a reservoir or vector of the virus. DTW.Deutsche.tierarztliche.Wochenschrift 111(12):467-472, 2004. Other studies have support the resistance of pigeons to AI virus infections. Some people have confused die-offs in pigeons to avian influenza when paramyxovirus type 1 is a common cause of neurological disease and death in pigeons and not avian influenza. We have conducted experimental studies in pigeons using viruses isolated from dead pigeons in Thailand. Even direct inoculation of these viruses into nasal cavity of pigeons caused limited infections with between 60-80% of the pigeons not becoming infected. This suggests the mortality from H5N1 HPAI virus in pigeons may have resulted from synergy between AI infection and some other pathogen. The "illness in school children" is an unsubstantiated rumor. No AI virus was isolated from the children and I am unaware of any evidence of infection. With this scientific information, it is unlikely that banning pigeons will have any impact on AI ecology and will not reduce the risk AI infections of poultry or humans. The primary species that have natural infections with AI viruses are wild ducks and shorebird (turnstones, gulls, etc.). Columbiformes and passerines are not reservoirs and they are rarely incidental hosts following spill-over of the viruses from infected domestic poultry. Some rebuttal to misinterpretation of my earlier statements. 1) The comments in the last paragraph above refer to global ecology of LPAI viruses, not specific to the Asian H5N1 HPAI virus (I used specifically different terms in the first half of the email - Asian H5N1 HPAI viruses- verses AI ecology in the last paragraph). Which is historically correct - pigeons are resistant to LPAI viruses and have not been involved in the ecology on a worldwide basis. 2) The banning of racing pigeons in Calgary, a location that does not have the Asian H5N1, would have no impact of the broad ecology of AI viruses since they are not the natural hosts of wild bird LPAI viruses. This would be predominately some species of wild ducks and shorebirds. This does not mean that pigeons are not susceptible to some AI virus; i.e. Dr. Kaleta's comment on H7 infections. However, surveys of pigeons have shown either no natural infections or rare infections (except with Asian H5N1 HPAI virus where die-offs of pigeons and infections have been identified). 3) My research data in pigeons as cited in paragraph 3 above shows that pigeons can be susceptible to the more recent Asian H5N1 HPAI viruses. This was not the case with the 1997 Hong Kong H5N1 HPAI virus where the virus did not grow in pigeons after intranasal inoculation. This would indicate, in geographic areas with new Asian H5N1 HPAI viruses circulating in wild birds or poultry, restricting the flying of pigeons would be prudent for pigeon health and to prevent addition of a new vector of the virus in the specific region. But a worldwide ban on flying pigeons is not supported by scientific information on ecology of LPAI viruses Thanks for bringing these misinterpretations to my attention and I would hope you would disseminate my response to other pigeon veterinarians and fanciers. Regards David E. Swayne, DVM, PhD Laboratory Director Southeast Poultry Research Laboratory USDA/ARS 934 College Station Road Athens, Georgia Telephone: 706-546-3433 Fax: 706-546-3161 -----Original Message----- From: Pascal Lanneau [mailto:pascallanneau@skynet.be] Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2005 6:01 PM To: David Swayne Subject: Avian Influenza Dear prof Swayne, Please allow me to introduce myself. I am a veterinarian from Belgium, who works a lot with pigeons. I read some papers and articles from your work, and Dr. G. Chalmers mentioned you already also as a reference concerning the AI. In attachment I have a letter concerning the AI and especially the research that was done regarding to pigeons. Also your opinion is mentioned in this article. It would be an honor for me if you could give me your opinion about this letter and the AI and pigeons. Thank you very much, Regards, PAscal Lanneau Veterinarian Belgium Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 17, 2005 Report Share Posted November 17, 2005 up date i have just recieved Hi all Latest from DEFRA today. Shows can now go ahead on licence but still no sales other than clearance sales. I will be taking this matter up with DEFRA (again!) to try to get some resolution on this. I cannot see their logic! Watch this space Peter Bryant General Manager The Royal Pigeon Racing Association The Reddings near Cheltenham, Glos GL51 6RN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pompey Mick Posted November 18, 2005 Report Share Posted November 18, 2005 Just to let everyone know that the Show Secretary of the Milton HS (Portsmouth) received a show permit today from DEFRA. for our Club Show. I haven't read it yet but there some provisos which are referred to on the DEFRA website. So at last there is light at the end of the tunnel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 18, 2005 Report Share Posted November 18, 2005 DOORSTALKER WILL THE DUNOON SHOW BE GOING AHEAD NOW THEY HAVE BEEN PAST BY DEFRA ??) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 19, 2005 Report Share Posted November 19, 2005 http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20051020/hl_afp/healthflugermany_051020185820 Check this out looks like the Germans have got their act together Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 19, 2005 Report Share Posted November 19, 2005 Its an interesting one, Hyacinth, but it is a future H5N1 vaccine, when others are already available, including one for humans, which the UK is stocking up on, in addition to Tamiflu the antiviral drug. However, vaccination for birds is also OUT as far as DEFRA is concerned. Their main reason is that it can actually mask the illness - you've detected antibodies in the bird, but can't tell if its reaction to vaccine or response to infection. (Note: their opinion, not mine.) The compulsory PMV1 annual vaccine is already quite controversial here in the UK, in that some vets (and fanciers) openly wonder if annual vaccination is the best clinical solution... so yet another vaccine would be far from welcome. I've picked up the same 'resistance' on mainland Europe too. Speaking of PMV, in my opinion, there's a number of 'strange co-incidental" outbreaks of the pigeon variant of the Paramyxo virus occurring on mainland Europe in other-than-pigeons at the same time that Avian Flu is 'on the go' for example in Slovenia, and France. And that doesn't include the pigeon deaths in Romania (not avian flu, actaul cause unknown) and Turkey (actual cause unknown) which I haven't been able to bottom. I don't know of any connection between avian flu and PMV other than PMV is a 'modified' flu virus, a para-influenza virus, whatever that is!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 26, 2005 Report Share Posted November 26, 2005 Avian Influenza & pigeons Scientific (evidence) @ 25 November 2005 Preface Dear pigeon vet, pigeon fancier, In the attached article, we tried to give a scientific based review of the different researches that has been done on Avian Influenza and the role of the pigeon. Please feel free to inform us if you have any scientific based research that isn't mentioned here, also your comments are more than welcome!! We want to thank Dr. Swayne, Dr. Miller, Dr. Walker and Dr. Talaber for their comments. If you want to be kept informed about new researches about pigeons and AI or pigeons in general, please let us know. Regards, Gordon Chalmers, DVM, Canada Pascal Lanneau, DVM, Belgium Introduction This article is completely dedicated to the Avian Influenza (AI) and the role of the pigeons in the spread of the virus. It is based on pure scientific literature and all the comments are from people with authority concerning veterinary medicine. There are 4 sections in this article: 1. Some Scientific articles All the articles are abstracts from Pubmed, the National Library of Medicines from the USA 2. Comments from professors and vets all over the world I would like to thank all the persons who gave their opinion about the AI and the role of the pigeons in it, based on scientific knowledge 3. Conclusion 4. References to articles I would like to thank Gordon Chalmers, DVM from Canada for the references he sent to me. Please feel free to let me know your opinion or if you have some new information. Important note; this article will be updated when there is some new information available!!! If you want to be sure you have the latest article, please mail us: pascallanneau@skynet.be Some Scientific articles concerning Avian Influenza and pigeons Dtsch Tierarztl Wochenschr. 2004 Dec; 111(12): 467-72 Review of the literature on avian influenza A viruses in pigeons and experimental studies on the susceptibility of domestic pigeons to influenza A viruses of the haemagglutinin subtype H7. Kaleta EF, Honicke A. Klinik fur Vogel, Reptilien, Amphibien und Fische, Fachbereich Veterinarmedizin, Justus-Liebig-Universitat Giessen, Frankfurter. erhard.f.kaleta@vetmed.uni-giessen.de The scientific literature of the past century is reviewed on fowl plague (presently termed highly pathogenic avian influenza, HPAI) in pigeons. HPAI viruses cause epidemic disease outbreaks with high rates of losses in many avian species, particularily in chickens and turkeys. Also susceptible to disease are quails, guinea fowl, ducks, geese, ostriches, passerine birds, and birds of prey whereas conflicting reports on the susceptibility of the domestic pigeon exist. Based on literature reports and on own experiments, and applying as criteria for judgements clinically overt forms of disease, virus multiplication plus shedding and seroconversion, it is concluded that domestic pigeons are only partially susceptible to influenza A viruses of the haemagglutinin subtype H7. Infection of pigeons with H7 viruses results only in some of them in signs, virus shedding and seroconversion. Using the same criteria, pigeons appear to be even less susceptible to infection with influenza A viruses of the H5 subtype. Only one of five publications describe in 1/19 pigeons exposed to H5 influenza A virus depression one day before death, and only 2/19 multiplied and excreted virus, and 1/19 developed circulating antibodies. Consequently, pigeons play only a minor role in the epidemiology of H5 influenza viruses. In contrast, following infection with influenza A virus of the subtype H7 clinical signs in pigeons consist of conjunctivitis, tremor, paresis of wings and legs, and wet droppings. H7-infected pigeons multiply and excrete H7 viruses and develop circulating antibodies. Albeit of the status of infection, free-flying domestic pigeons can act as mechanical vectors and vehicles for long-distance transmission of any influenza A virus if plumage or feet were contaminated. Avian Pathol. 2004 Oct 33 (5): 492-505 Investigation of outbreaks of highly pathogenic H5N1 avian influenza in waterfowl and wild birds in Hong Kong in late 2002. Ellis TM, Bousfield RB, Bissett LA, Dyrting KC, Luk GS, Tsim ST, Sturm-Ramirez K, Webster RG, Guan Y, Malik Peiris JS. Tai Lung Veterinary Laboratory, Agriculture Fisheries and Conservation Department, Lin Tong Mei, Sheung Shui, New Territories, Hong Kong SAR, China. ellis_trevor@afcd.gov.hk Outbreaks of highly pathogenic H5N1 avian influenza have occurred in Hong Kong in chickens and other gallinaceous poultry in 1997, 2001, twice in 2002 and 2003. High mortality rates were seen in gallinaceous birds but not in domestic or wild waterfowl or other wild birds until late 2002 when highly pathogenic H5N1 avian influenza occurred in waterfowl (geese, ducks and swans), captive Greater Flamingo (Phoenicopterus ruber) and other wild birds (Little Egret Egretta garzetta) at two waterfowl parks and from two dead wild Grey Heron (Ardea cinerea) and a Black-headed Gull (Larus ridibundus) in Hong Kong. H5N1 avian influenza virus was also isolated from a dead feral pigeon (Columba livia) and a dead tree sparrow (Passer montanus) during the second outbreak. The first waterfowl outbreak was controlled by immediate strict quarantine and depopulation 1 week before the second outbreak commenced. Control measures implemented for the second outbreak included strict isolation, culling, increased sanitation and vaccination. Outbreaks in gallinaceous birds occurred in some live poultry markets concurrently with the second waterfowl outbreak, and infection on a chicken farm was detected 1 week after the second waterfowl park outbreak was detected, on the same day the second grey heron case was detected. Subsequent virus surveillance showed the outbreaks had been contained. Avian Dis. 2003; 47 (3 Suppl) 849-56 The quest of influenza A viruses for new hosts. Liu M, Guan Y, Peiris M, He S, Webby RJ, Perez D, Webster RG. St. Jude Children's Research Hospital, Division of Virology, Department of Infectious Diseases, 332 N. Lauderdale, Memphis, TN 38105, USA. There is increasing evidence that stable lineages of influenza viruses are being established in chickens. H9N2 viruses are established in chickens in Eurasia, and there are increasing reports of H3N2, H6N1, and H6N2 influenza viruses in chickens both in Asia and North America. Surveillance in a live poultry market in Nanchang, South Central China, reveals that influenza viruses were isolated form 1% of fecal samples taken from healthy poultry over the course of 16 months. The highest isolation rates were from chickens (1.3%) and ducks (1.2%), followed by quail (0.8%), then pigeon (0.5%). H3N6, H9N2, H2N9, and H4N6 viruses were isolated from multiple samples, while single isolates of H1N1, H3N2, and H3N3 viruses were made. Representatives of each virus subtype were experimentally inoculated into both quail and chickens. All the viruses replicated in the trachea of quail, but efficient replication in chickens was confined to 25% of the tested isolates. In quail, these viruses were shed primarily by the aerosol route, raising the possibility that quail may be the "route modulator" that changes the route of transmission of influenza viruses from fecal-oral to aerosol transmission. Thus, quail may play an important role in the natural history of influenza viruses. The pros and cons of the use of inactivated and recombinant fowl pox-influenza vaccines to control the spread of avian influenza are also evaluated. Avian Dis. 2002 Jan-Mar; 46(1): 53-63. Pathogenicity of a Hong Kong-origin H5N1 highly pathogenic avian influenza virus for emus, geese, ducks, and pigeons. Perkins LE, Swayne DE. Southeast Poultry Research Laboratory, United States Department of Agriculture, Agricultural Research Service, Athens, GA 30605, USA. The H5N1 type A influenza viruses that emerged in Hong Kong in 1997 are a unique lineage of type A influenza viruses with the capacity to transmit directly from chickens to humans and produce significant disease and mortality in both of these hosts. The objective of this study was to ascertain the susceptibility of emus (Dramaius novaehollandiae), domestic geese (Anser anser domesticus), domestic ducks (Anas platyrhynchos), and pigeons (Columba livia) to intranasal (i.n.) inoculation with the A/chicken/Hong Kong/220/97 (H5N1) highly pathogenic avian influenza virus. No mortality occurred within 10 days postinoculation (DPI) in the four species investigated, and clinical disease, evident as neurologic dysfunction, was observed exclusively in emus and geese. Grossly, pancreatic mottling and splenomegaly were identified in these two species. In addition, the geese had cerebral malacia and thymic and bursal atrophy. Histologically, both the emus and geese developed pancreatitis, meningoencephalitis, and mild myocarditis. Influenza viral antigen was demonstrated in areas with histologic lesions up to 10 DPI in the geese. Virus was reisolated from oropharyngeal and cloacal swabs and from the lung, brain, and kidney of the emus and geese. Moderate splenomegaly was observed grossly in the ducks. Viral infection of the ducks was pneumotropic, as evidenced by mild inflammatory lesions in the respiratory tract and virus reisolation from oropharyngeal swabs and from a lung. Pigeons were resistant to HK/220 infection, lacking gross and histologic lesions, viral antigen, and reisolation of virus. These results imply that emus and geese are susceptible to i.n. inoculation with the HK/220 virus, whereas ducks and pigeons are more resistant. These latter two species probably played a minimal epidemiologic role in the perpetuation of the H5N1 Hong Kong-origin influenza viruses. Avian Dis. 1996 Jul-Sep; 40 (3): 600-4 Susceptibility of pigeons to avian influenza. Panigrahy B, Senne DA, Pedersen JC, Shafer AL, Pearson JE. National Veterinary Services Laboratories, U.S. Department of Agriculture, Ames, Iowa 50010, USA. Susceptibility to infection with avian influenza virus (AIV) was studied in pigeons inoculated via oculonasal (Experiment 1) or intravenous (Experiment 2) route. Chickens were included as susceptible hosts in both experiments. Two subtypes each of the highly pathogenic AIV (HPAIV; HP CK/PA H5N2 and HP CK/Australia H7N7) and non-pathogenic AIV (NPAIV; NP CK/PA H5N2 and NP emu/TX H7N1) at a dose of 10(5) embryo infective dose per bird were used as inoculum. The pigeons inoculated with HP CK/PA H5N2 or HP CK/Australia H7N7 remained apparently healthy throughout the 21-day observation period, did not shed viruses on 3, 7, 14, and 21 days postinoculation (DPI), and had no demonstrable levels of antibodies on 21 DPI. On the other hand, 9 of 12 chickens inoculated with the HPAIV died of highly pathogenic avian influenza; the viruses were recovered from their respiratory and intestinal tissues, and the surviving chickens had antibodies to AIV. Regarding responses of pigeons to inoculation with NP CK/PA H5N2 or NP emu/TX H7N1, the pigeons remained clinically healthy throughout the 21-day observation period and did not have detectable levels of antibodies on 21 DPI; only one pigeon yielded the NP emu/TX H7N1 on 3 DPI. The virus was isolated from a tracheal swab and was believed to be the residual inoculum virus. Based on the responses of pigeons to NPAIV and HPAIV, it was concluded that the pigeons were resistant or minimally susceptible to infection with HPAIV or NPAIV Comments from veterinarians concerning Avian Influenza and pigeons David E. Swayne, DVM, PhD Laboratory Director Southeast Poultry Research Laboratory USDA/ARS 934 College Station Road Athens, Georgia Telephone: 706-546-3433 Fax: 706-546-3161 Personal correspondence with Dr. David E Swayne (USA) concerning the AI problematic Dear Dr. Lanneau The email I sent to Dr. Chalmers is factually correct, the commentary he placed on my statements are not within the context which I had answered his questions over 4 months ago. The original questions he sent me were: A nearby city of close to 1 million people (Calgary, Alberta, Canada) is proposing a bylaw to ban pigeons on the basis of their concerns about Avian Influenza, etc.. I have been asked to respond to these concerns, so was wondering if there is anything new from your research on the strain that was allegedly causing illness in pigeons and school children in SE Asia. I'd be grateful if you could provide any update on the virus and its relationship to illness in pigeons. Many thanks for any help you can offer. Kind regards, Gord Chalmers, DVM. My response was: Dr. Kaleta recently published review of Avian Influenza (AI) in pigeons and concluded, as I also believe, that pigeons are resistant to avian influenza viruses and have not been a reservoir or vector of the virus. DTW.Deutsche.tierarztliche.Wochenschrift 111(12):467-472, 2004. Other studies have support the resistance of pigeons to AI virus infections. Some people have confused die-offs in pigeons to avian influenza when paramyxovirus type 1 is a common cause of neurological disease and death in pigeons and not avian influenza. We have conducted experimental studies in pigeons using viruses isolated from dead pigeons in Thailand. Even direct inoculation of these viruses into nasal cavity of pigeons caused limited infections with between 60-80% of the pigeons not becoming infected. This suggests the mortality from H5N1 HPAI virus in pigeons may have resulted from synergy between AI infection and some other pathogen. The "illness in school children" is an unsubstantiated rumor. No AI virus was isolated from the children and I am unaware of any evidence of infection. With this scientific information, it is unlikely that banning pigeons will have any impact on AI ecology and will not reduce the risk AI infections of poultry or humans. The primary species that have natural infections with AI viruses are wild ducks and shorebird (turnstones, gulls, etc.). Columbiformes and passerines are not reservoirs and they are rarely incidental hosts following spill-over of the viruses from infected domestic poultry. Some rebuttal to misinterpretation of my earlier statements. 1) The comments in the last paragraph above refer to global ecology of LPAI viruses, not specific to the Asian H5N1 HPAI virus (I used specifically different terms in the first half of the email - Asian H5N1 HPAI viruses- verses AI ecology in the last paragraph). Which is historically correct - pigeons are resistant to LPAI viruses and have not been involved in the ecology on a worldwide basis. 2) The banning of racing pigeons in Calgary, a location that does not have the Asian H5N1, would have no impact of the broad ecology of AI viruses since they are not the natural hosts of wild bird LPAI viruses. This would be predominately some species of wild ducks and shorebirds. This does not mean that pigeons are not susceptible to some AI virus; i.e. Dr. Kaleta's comment on H7 infections. However, surveys of pigeons have shown either no natural infections or rare infections (except with Asian H5N1 HPAI virus where die-offs of pigeons and infections have been identified). 3) My research data in pigeons as cited in paragraph 3 above shows that pigeons can be susceptible to the more recent Asian H5N1 HPAI viruses. This was not the case with the 1997 Hong Kong H5N1 HPAI virus where the virus did not grow in pigeons after intranasal inoculation. This would indicate, in geographic areas with new Asian H5N1 HPAI viruses circulating in wild birds or poultry, restricting the flying of pigeons would be prudent for pigeon health and to prevent addition of a new vector of the virus in the specific region. But a worldwide ban on flying pigeons is not supported by scientific information on ecology of LPAI viruses Thanks for bringing these misinterpretations to my attention and I would hope you would disseminate my response to other pigeon veterinarians and fanciers. Regards David E. Swayne, DVM, PhD Laboratory Director Dr. Gordon Chalmers from Canada Personal correspondence with Dr. Gordon Chalmers (Canada) concerning AI problematic If you examine the previous statement from Dr Swayne, you will see that, even though 60-80% of the inoculated birds did not become infected, 20-40% developed 'limited infections', so it seems that, yes, pigeons can be infected at times with AI viruses, in this case an H5N1 virus. Dr Kaleta feels that H7 AI viruses seem to be able to infect pigeons more readily than H5 viruses. With this information and the current problems in Europe and Asia, I think it is important for pigeon fanciers to be very careful for the future, especially because of the H5N1 virus now in Europe. The Dutch authorities this summer showed the value of isolating their poultry flocks to protect them from contact with wild birds that might be carrying influenza viruses. We should learn from their experience and isolate our pigeons for the same reasons. This means no outside exercise, no access to aviaries, no loft visiting, no exchanges of birds, no visits to poultry shows, and if necessary, no racing either. Our birds can live to race another day! Dr. Paul Miller from America Part I Personal correspondence with Dr. Paul Miller (USA) concerning the AI problem Hello Dr. Lanneau, Thank you for your e-mail and attached literature survey. I am currently attending the AAVLD convention, and the topic is to be discussed at length by the experts tomorrow. I briefly talked with one of them, Dr. D. J. King from Southeastern Poultry Lab in Athens, GA on Saturday. He feels that there is some variation between the H types, but that in general, pigeons make very poor hosts for AI. In some cases they can be infected to the point that they seroconvert, that is, the immune system 'sees' the AI antigen, considers it to be 'foreign' and responds. I will try to give you a more detailed commentary after the convention is over. My personal view of all the AI publicity is that it is media hype and pure fear mongering. All the human deaths are in countries with very poor sanitation and hygiene standards, and abysmal medical infrastructure. The fact is that, with West Nile fading fast, the medical establishment needs a new poster child, a disease that will 'kill us all' if we don't give them billions of $$$. The US government is caving in to this nonsense with a $7.1B control program to forestall this phantom disease. I will let you know what the pigeon aspect of this is after the convention. Dr. King told me that he has just submitted a draft of a new paper he has written on Newcastle in pigeons; it should be out in a few months, probably in Avian Diseases. There was also some question about Adeno Virus in pigeons; some feel that it is an intestinal form of Circo. There has been some difficulty identifying the inclusion bodies in the intestine under Electron Microscopy as true Adenovirus. Sorry to be so brief. I'll try to be more complete later. Hope all is well with you. Kindest Regards, Paul Miller Dr. Paul Miller from America Part II Pigeons play a very minimal role in the entire Avian Influenza scene. Up until the emergence of the virulent H5N1 about a year ago, they did not get H5 at all. About a year ago, the H5N1 in Asia and Europe became more virulent, even pathogenic to its natural host, ducks, and this virulent form can infect pigeons to a limited degree. Dr. David Swayne from Athens, GA gave a talk yesterday at the AAVLD convention in which he presented this information. There is some variation among the H-types, but none go into pigeons very well, and pigeons do not transmit Avian Influenza well at all. This new pathogenic strain of H5N1 (in Europe and Asia) has been put into pigeons; it infects only a small percentage of the birds exposed. It will even kill a few. Pigeons are still very poor hosts for Avian Influenza. For further information, I would suggest that you contact Dr. David Swayne directly at the South Eastern Poultry Research Lab in Athens, GA. Pigeons and poultry are as different as day and night. It is obvious from the Taxonomy: Galliformes and Columbiformes. From an Avian Influenza point of view, pigeons are different from any other bird: they just do not host Influenza well. Viruses in general are quite particular about the cell type and the cell surface that they will use for replication. Apparently pigeons lack the cell surface receptors and the cell physiology to accommodate the Influenza virus. It has to do with the cellular nature of the bird. Even if you take a pathogenic strain, such as the current Asian H5N1, they still can not be efficiently infected; only a few can be infected. The basic situation here is this. The current hype about Avian Influenza mutating into a form highly contagious and fatal to humans is nothing short of fear mongering. Such an event is theoretically possible, but highly improbable, especially in the current state of medical preparedness. All the people who have died of Avian Influenza were in situations of compromised hygiene and sanitation with substandard medical care. Many lived with their chickens in the same house. Since the decline of West Nile as a significant health threat in the US, the medical bureaucracy has needed a new ‘poster child’, a menacing disease which will surely ‘kill us all’ if we don’t give them billions of dollars. Avian Influenza fills that need, and obviously the drug and vaccine companies have jumped onto the band wagon. You would have a better chance of winning the lottery than you would of getting Avian Influenza; the chances are that slim. At a meeting I was at yesterday at the AAVLD convention, I asked a CDC (Center for Disease Control) representative after a talk on Avian Influenza about the chances of any of this happening. She refused to even discuss the subject of what are the possibilities that this will actually happen. All she wanted to talk about is how horrendous things would be if it actually did happen: fear mongering, plain and simple. The CDC, WHO, OIE and several other medical bureaucracies obviously need more money, and their ticket is fear mongering some phantom Avian Influenza outbreak into a full blown crisis. Dr. Colin Walker from Australia Personal correspondence with Dr. Walker Colin (Australia) concerning the AI problematic Pascal, As you say AI is very topical at the moment particularly in Australia because of our proximity to Indonesia and also because we did recently have 3 pigeons in quarantine test positive for AI antibodies. My understanding of AI in pigeons is that pigeons can catch AI but tend to be a rather resistant species so that if they do become infected the symptoms are fairly mild, they quickly recover and the carrier state does not occur. Regards Colin Walker, BVSc Dr. Zsolt Talaber from Hungary Personal correspondence with Dr. Zsolt Talaber (Hungary) concerning the AI problematic I think that pigeons can be infected with AI viruses. It seems like the pigeons have more resistance against the AI viruses as other bird species, but at times pigeons can catch this viruses and the illness can develop in them. Moreover, pigeons can spread the AI viruses mechanically, on their plumage, feet etc In case of AI we should say the pigeons are like as the other bird species. Theoretically ALL bird species can spread the AI viruses mechanically, and a lot of them can fall ill with avian influenza. So the answer: pigeons must be separated from other birds, but literally. Moreover, the AI viruses are capable of mutation, and a "successful" mutation of AI can be with extraordinary consequences in pigeons. The chance of it is bigger if pigeons fall in with AI viruses frequently. Conclusion concerning Avian Influenza and pigeons If you read all the recent articles, I think there is consequently one opinion that is important. Although the pigeons are very resistant to the Low pathogenic Avian Influenza (LPAI), there is a chance that they become infected with the high Pathogenic Avian Influenza(HPAI, H5N1), this is confirmed by recent research. This means that we have to be careful in this matter concerning the outbreak of the AI. Pigeons don’t play a very important role in the transmission of the AI, but not important doesn’t mean that they don’t play a role at all!!! We don’t have to exaggerate the role of the pigeon in this matter at all, but don’t minimize it also!!! I would like to conclude with the words of my friend Dr. Gordon Chalmers from Canada, which are almost the same as those from Dr. Paul Miller from USA, and also my opinion concerning this very hot item: As pigeon fanciers and pigeon veterinarians, we have to be aware that there are some evidences that pigeons can be infected by the presently active Highly Pathogenic Avian Influenza H5N1. This means that we have to be carefull in times of infection in the local areas with that strain!! This means that quarantine could be very useful when a country or region is infected to protect against exposure from wild birds that could carry the virus. References concerning Avian Influenza and pigeons Easterday, B.C. and V.S. Hinshaw. 1991. Influenza. In: Calnek, B.W. ed, Diseases of Poultry, 9th Ed. pps 532-551. Iowa State University Press, Ames. Tudor, D.C. 1991. Avian Influenza. In: Pigeon Health and Disease, 41 - 44. Iowa State University Press, Ames Gregory, D. 1993. Avian Influenza in U. S.A. In: Information Bulletin, January 25, 1993. Food and Inspection Branch, Agriculture Canada, Ottawa, Ontario. Nettles, V.F., J.M. Wood, and R.G. Webster. 1985. Wildlife surveillance associated with an outbreak of lethal H5N2 avian influenza virus in domestic poultry. Avian Dis 29: 733-741. Lang, G., B.T. Rouse, 0. Narayan, A.E. Ferguson and M.C. Connell. 1968. A new influenza virus infection in turkeys, 1. Isolation and characterization of virus 6213. Can. Vet. J. 9: 22-29. Narayan, 0., G. Lang, and B. T. Rouse. 1969. A new influenza A virus infection in turkeys. IV. Experimental susceptibility of domestic birds to virus strain Turkey/Ontario/7732/1966. Arch. Gesamte Virusforsch. 26: 149-165, Slemons, R.D. and B.C. Easterday. 1972. Host response differences among 5 avian species to an influenza virus -- A/Turkey/Ontario/7732/66 (HaV5N?). Bull. World Health Org. 47: 521-525. Additional References: Hinshaw, V.S. 1987. The nature of avian influenza in migrating waterfowl, including interspecies transmission, Proc, 2nd Internat Symp, Avian Influenza., pp 133-141, U.S. Animal Health Assoc., Athens Ga. Hinshaw, V.S., V.F. Nettles, L.E. Schoff, J.M. Wood, and R.G. Webster. 1986. Influenza virus surveillance in waterfowl in Pennsylvania after the HSN2 avian outbreak. Avian Dis 30: 207 - 211. Most recent references: Panigrahy B, DA Senne, JC Pedersen, AL Shafer and JE Pearson. 1996. Susceptibility of pigeons to avian influenza. Avian Dis 40: 600-604. Guan Y, KF Shortridge, S Kraus, PS Chin, KC Dyrting, TM Ellis, RG Webster and TM Peiris. 2000. H9N2 influenza viruses possessing H5N1-like internal genomes continue to circulate in Southern China. J Virol 74: 9372-9380. Perkins LE and DE Swayne. 2002. Pathogenicity of a Hong Kong-origin H5N1 highly avian influenza virus for emus, geese, ducks, and pigeons. Avian Dis 46: 53-63. (dswayne@seprl.usda.gov) Kaleta EF and A Honicke. 2004. Review of the literature on avian influenza A viruses in pigeons and experimental studies on the susceptibility of domestic pigeons to influenza A viruses of the haemagglutinin subtype H7. Dtsch Tierarztl Wochenschr 111: 467-472. Capua I, F Mutinelli, MA Bozza, C Terregino and G Catoli. 2000. Highly pathogenic avian influenza (H7N1) in ostriches (Struthio camellus). Avian Pathol 29: 643-646. Ellis TM, RB Bousfield, LA Bissett, KC Dyrting, GSM Luk, ST Tsim, K Sturm-Ramirez, RG Webster, Y Guan and JSM Peiris. 2004. Investigations of outbreaks of highly pathogenic H5N1 avian influenza in waterfowl and wild birds in Hong Kong in late 2002. Avian Pathol 33: 492-505. Guan Y, JSM Peiris, AS Lipatov, TM Ellis, KC Dyrting, S Krauss, LJ Zhang, RG Webster and KF Shortridge. Emergence of multiple genotypes of H5N1 avian influenza viruses in Hong Kong SAR. Proc Nat Acad Sci (PNAS) 99: 8950-8955. Kaleta EF and A Hönicke. 2005. A retrospective description of a highly pathogenic avian influenza virus (H7N1/Carduelis/Germany/72) in a free-living siskin (Carduelis spinus Linnaeus, 1758) and its accidental transmission to yellow canaries (Serinus canaria Linnaeus, 1758). Dtsch. Tieräztl Wschr 112: 1-40. Liu M, Y Guan, M Peiris, S He, RJ Webby, D Perez and RG Webster. 2003. The quest of influenza A viruses for new hosts. Avian Dis 47: 849-856. Manvell RJ, P McKinney, U Wernery and K Frost. 2000. Isolation of a highly pathogenic influenza A virus subtype H7N3 from a peregrine falcon (Falco peregrinus). Avian Pathol 29: 635-637. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 27, 2005 Report Share Posted November 27, 2005 PIGEON SHOWS TO CONTINUE UNDER LICENCE http://www.defra.gov.uk/news/2005/051117c.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 27, 2005 Report Share Posted November 27, 2005 PIGEON SHOWS TO CONTINUE UNDER LICENCE http://www.defra.gov.uk/news/2005/051117c.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Doostalker Posted November 28, 2005 Report Share Posted November 28, 2005 DOORSTALKER WILL THE DUNOON SHOW BE GOING AHEAD NOW THEY HAVE BEEN PAST BY DEFRA ??) Clockman, sorry I have not answered before now, but computer has been on the blink and is not quite right even yet....The Joys!! :'( As soon as I heard that a licence could be obtained I contacted the Scottish Executive vet in Perth. This discussion proved that we would not have enough time to get a licence, so we will go with our original idea and apply for 2006. We are still going ahead with the social events, so if you want a weekend away from the other half, you would be more than welcome. Then again, maybe you could bring the other half too??? ;D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pompey Mick Posted November 29, 2005 Report Share Posted November 29, 2005 My Club The Milton Homing Society (Portsmouth) after speaking to our local ministry vet applied for a Show licence before pigeons were allowed to be shown after arguing our case over the phone. We applied for licences for five weekly shows commencing on Friday 18th Nov. the ban was lifted on the 17th Nov and after more phone calls our licence for the 18th was faxed to us that day. We received all five licences in the post Sat 19th Nov. Very pleased with the response we got from our local DEFRA office. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 1, 2005 Report Share Posted December 1, 2005 Dr Gordon Chalmers emailed this article by Dr Miller as an 'update' to the earlier avian flu review. Having read it, I believe it more a personal view by Dr Miller, but read it for yourself and make up your own mind:- Avian Influenza update; Winter, 2005 : by Dr. Paul G. Miller PhD, DVM For the past few months, Avian Influenza has been in the news, and some of this news has had a negative impact on the pigeon fancy. This is an attempt to clarify and elaborate on some of that information, especially as it relates to pigeons. The news media abound with fearful stories of some new and treacherous ‘Bird Flu’ that will ‘kill us all’, (more precisely 150 million) in the latest pandemic on the horizon, the worst since 1918. Ninety nine percent of this is hype, intended to raise money for the medical bureaucracy establishment and improve business for drug companies and vaccine companies. With West Nile fading fast over the horizon, the medical establishment needs a new poster child, a dreadful disease that will ‘surely kill us all’ if we don’t continue to support their capricious demands. Some aspects of the current situation do raise concern, but we are light years away from anything remotely resembling a pandemic. In Asia, over the past few years, there have been some cases of humans contracting Avian Influenza from birds; the earliest of any notoriety was in Hong Kong in 1997. This infection was a H5N1 type which did indeed prove fatal in a few humans, but which did not infect pigeons and couldn’t be transmitted by pigeons. (The ‘H’ and ‘N’ numbers are a technical way of characterizing the Influenza virus used by scientists to distinguish one type of Influenza virus from another; obviously if the numbers are different in two separate outbreaks, so are the sources of infection). As times have gone on from there, human infections of Avian Influenza have occasionally occurred in Asia; all of these have been in situations where there has been extremely close contact between humans and birds. In many of these cases, the birds were chickens living in the same house as the person infected, often in hygiene and sanitary conditions far below contemporary American standards of personal and household hygiene and sanitation. As these people became ill, they were often diagnosed and treated using local medical professionals and facilities which, in some cases, are not comparable to American medical standards. Under these conditions, the fatality rate of Avian Influenza in humans in Asia has been about 50%. In most of this, the culprit has been H5N1 type Avian Influenza. This particular strain of the Influenza virus is carried in wild waterfowl and shorebirds. In the past, this virus has not caused disease in these birds, and, as these birds migrate, they act as a wild reservoir for the disease, spreading it along their migration flyways. Domestic birds which come into contact with the virus spread in this manner are likely to become infected, and many infected species are likely to develop disease. With the relatively primitive poultry husbandry practices used in many situations in Asia, domestic poultry can easily become infected through exposure in this manner. Over the past few years, H5N1 itself has undergone some changes. Just as pigeons are subject to the laws of Genetics, so are viruses, and just as pigeon genes are subject to genetic mutations, so are viral genes subject to mutation. Influenza is an RNA virus, and such viruses tend to have a relatively high rate of mutation. Once a mutation has occurred, the persistence of that mutation is subject to the selection forces in the environment; a favorable pigeon mutation is selected for by the pigeon fancier to produce a winning flier or a show winner. An unfavorable mutation is selected against and culled. Viruses work similarly, but with environmental forces doing the selection: virulent viruses more effectively infect their host, and are spread more efficiently. Less virulent viruses are outnumbered and crowded out. Hence, without any opposition or control, a virus would naturally tend to build up mutations enhancing virulence and it would increase in virulence, propagating more effectively within its host, transmitting more efficiently to another susceptible host and, possibly, even expanding its host range. On the contrary, a situation in which the virus is not allowed to propagate widely would obviously not be favorable for any of this, and establishing a new viral mutation would be a very remote possibility. This is exactly the situation with the H5N1 virus itself. The H5N1 virus is found world wide, both in North America and in Eurasia. Since the group of species of birds inhabiting North America is distinct from the group of species inhabiting Eurasia, these two groups of birds can be thought of as separate, distinct populations. Also there is very little contact between birds endemic to these two areas; thus, these two populations of birds (American and Eurasian) can be thought of as entirely distinct populations of birds, each with its own unique environment. Also, in each of these populations, the H5N1 virus experiences entirely different selective forces, and hence we have emerging two distinct strains of the H5N1 virus. Just as there are different strains of racing pigeons (e.g. Sions vs Jansens), there are emerging different strains of the H5N1 virus. In particular, as we have seen above, in Asia, there has been very little effective control over the H5N1 situation, so it has propagated largely out of control, and hence become a distinct, more virulent strain of the H5N1 virus; thus the Eurasian strain of H5N1 has now been specifically named ‘Asian H5N1 HPAI’. (The ‘HPAI’ stands for Highly Pathogenic Avian Influenza). The Asian H5N1 HPAI strain lives up to its name very well. It is pathogenic in its natural hosts (waterfowl and shore birds) and, can still infect humans, cause disease and even death. Unfortunately, it has also extended its host range to now include pigeons. This does not mean that pigeons have become its natural host, but it now can infect pigeons and cause disease in them. Pigeons are still insignificant players in the Eurasian H5N1 scene, but they are now in the host range. In contrast to the Eurasian situation, the American H5N1 remains well controlled. It has never had the opportunity to become highly pathogenic, mainly because it has been stamped out or controlled where ever it has been found. For foreign trade as well as public health reasons, the United States and Canada have always aggressively stamped out or tightly controlled Avian Influenza (regardless of H and N types) whenever it occurred. In this environment, it has not had the opportunity to become highly pathogenic, hence the American H5N1 is termed LPAI, Low Pathogenic Avian Influenza. For this American H5N1 strain, the prior experimental results would indicate that pigeons are largely resistant. Notice that, as much as we dislike government intrusion into our lives, both state and the federal government play a major role in defining this environment, especially keeping Avian Influenza from getting out of hand as it has in Asia. So where does this leave us ??? Obviously that depends upon the geographic location. In the United States and Canada, the situation is as it was before: the American H5N1 has low pathogenicity, and pigeons (and humans) don’t get it. That doesn’t mean that we can become complacent and forget about Avian Influenza; we still need to be very vigilant and make sure that all Avian Influenza is well controlled so that we don’t get into the situation we have in Asia. In particular, let me reiterate a few precautionary principles. - Do NOT let your birds mix with migratory birds, especially waterfowl or shorebirds. All wild birds should be kept out of your loft and off your premises. Do NOT feed wild birds around your pigeon loft. - Do NOT let your birds mix with any other domestic poultry; galliforms and waterfowl can and do get Avian Influenza, and could set up a situation similar to the Asian situation, expanding the host range into pigeons. Don’t let this happen. - Do NOT allow your birds to mix with feral pigeons, and do not allow feral pigeons into your loft. - Avoid any and all contact with hogs, even indirect. Hogs are the ‘mixing vessel’ to combine the Avian Influenza strains with human adapted strains. Many of the Avian Influenza cases I have seen in domestic poultry have been associated with hogs. - When training, keep birds under control, and do NOT allow them to just sit around outside on the loft roof; they should be either in the air or in the loft. Young birds traveling to scout the territory is fine, as long as they are flying. Except for settling, birds should not just sit on the roof. - Races and training flights should be arranged so that the birds can make it home in a reasonable amount of time. Do NOT release into bad weather, weather ‘fronts’, low atmospheric pressure, high winds, other races crossing their flight path, etc. - Do NOT import pigeons from Europe, except through approved USDA quarantine stations. Since the Asian H5N1 HPAI can infect pigeons, we must be VERY CAUTIOUS with anything from Europe. There are plenty of good birds available domestically; it is no longer necessary to import from Europe. - In the case of an Avian Influenza break in any species, keep yourself and your birds totally clear of any contact, even indirect or incidental. In the Asian situation, the strategy would be to keep pigeons as a minor, incidental host. Pigeons are not a major player in Asian H5N1 HPAI at this time; they are insignificant at this point. Keep it that way. Do not allow pigeons to become infected, and quickly destroy any that do become infected. Monitor for Avian Influenza by whatever means are available through your local Avian Lab or Avian Vet; and vaccinate if a vaccine becomes available and is approved. The above rules should also be observed, and modified as necessary to fit the situation. Avian Influenza is not a major problem in pigeons. With a little bit of common sense and vigilance we can easily keep it that way, and continue to enjoy our birds for a long time to come. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hooky Posted December 5, 2005 Report Share Posted December 5, 2005 here in australia quarintine found that 6 pigeons that were imported from canada had the bird flue antibobies..so at some stage these birds were exsposed to the virus!!!1thank god australian quarintine are on the ball.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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