AVIAN FLU

[fifestay]

My difficulty is that the Government dont take a tempered view and will probably order a wholesale slaughter of everythinhg Avian

[fifestay]

The WHO are not always right ..been using anti malaria drugs in |Africa which are not effective inthat the strain has become immune

[fifestay]

My difficulty is that the Government dont take a tempered view and will probably order a wholesale slaughter of everythinhg Avian

[Guest]

Fifestay

 

If you start pressing your Unions now to collected the paper work regarding pigeons and avian flu. I don't think you should have any problems.

 

To be forwardned is to be forarmed  !!!!!!

[Guest]

ive also posted a new thread on this i know they stopped pigeon racing when the foot and mouth broke out but i hope it will not come over here in the u.k or even any were in europe because all channel races will be stopped. and im looking forward to the channel races this year! ive got some birds that i fancy in bourges this year :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(

[Guest]

I think we need to take some responsibility ourselves, not only to occupy the moral high ground in the coming crisis, but also to ensure that both we and our birds are safe FROM the virus and FOR each other.

To do that, we must admit to ourselves that there is a possibility – however remote - that the virus could occur in pigeons. Take another long and hard look at the earlier post ‘from the medics’ – which somehow has been taken as proof that it can’t. Where did the virus come from that was used in the experiment?  From pigeons. So please wake up people to that reality. :'(

Now our ‘friends’ in the RSPB have already mounted a similar ‘look elsewhere’ campaign. The Scotsman Friday 26th August, before it quotes from a joint statement issued by RSPB and 3 other bird organisations says ‘these groups played down the risk of migrating birds bringing bird flu to Scotland. The ‘RSPB’ statement said there was no definite proof migratory birds can transmit the disease. Although there was a theoretical risk birds could bring the virus to the UK, they believe the risk is higher from imported poultry or the pet trade.’

:BSo there you have it, without a shred of proof, they come away with a statement that says don’t blame wild birds – more likely that some ‘domestic’ breed is at fault. Now doesn’t that sound a bit like some of our posts?  :K)Never mind the consequences, its not our birds, lets get on with our racing – while millions of people die around us - racing over the channel from a dead continent? :'(

The post on malaria misses out the virus's survival strategy. Pretty difficult to keep on top of something that is constantly changing. Unlike other organisms, it cannot ‘reproduce’ a carbon copy of itself. One virus invading a cell produces millions of virus different in some way from the original.What works against it today, might not necessarily work tomorrow. (The same with quinine. But another was developed, and works) . Thats why they speak about this strain (H5N1) - there's actually about a dozen of them. The one in Holland two years ago was a different one again.

That’s why I say work as if the virus can infect a pigeon – take reasonable precautions now. Because one day it will surely be able to infect our birds – and then it will be too late to do something about it.

 

:'(

[fifestay]

Yes I take the point Bruno but the WHO doctors know its the beaucrats. Its about panis for me and just taking radical action if it flies and has feathers kill it is my worry. We will see what Europe does ..thank goodness we are an Isalnd gives a bit odf space if the Migrating Birds get to europe first

[fifestay]

: :B :B :B err that you should be panic not panis

[Guest]

Well Fifestay, I know your fears after what happened in Foot & Mouth in the UK. But I believe that the answer lies with ourselves. We are part of Europe, part of the European Directive arrangement which is designed to keep matters of importance uniform throughout the member states.

 

Now there’s an interesting development in Holland with free range poultry. To keep the birds safe, the Dutch Government has said that all these birds are to be kept inside. Inside being a wild bird-proof building.

 

A pigeon loft is a wild bird-proof building. If it isn’t wild bird-proof now then make it so. Keep the pigeons in. No big problem at this time of year and certainly for next 6 months or so. So here we have already healthy birds confined BEFORE BIRD FLU ARRIVES like another member state has advised and with which the relevant industry has complied. WE HAVE LEGAL PRECEDENT WHICH CAN BE ARGUED AND WON IN EVERY COURT AT EVERY LEVEL IN EUROPE.

 

 

(1) Good easy to read and understand layperson’s guide from Japan, in English. Helps understanding of how this is transmitted from bird to bird. Note that this is the advice given to the public IN AN AREA WHERE BIRD FLU HAS ALREADY BROKEN OUT.

 

http://www.city.osaka.jp/kenkoufukushi/kansensyou/english/infection/01.html

 

 

(2) Guardian newspaper report on Dutch locking up free range poultry. A precedent lead for us to follow which could also be argued, in my opinion, as a legal precedent in court. Taken with (1) above, locking up our birds seems to be a simple and effective way to protect them from the virus and overreaction by the UK Parliaments / Assemblies.

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/birdflu/story/0,14207,1554356,00.html

 

 

:)So Hyacinth is quite right even if she is on a slightly different track – but I hope she’ll come over too    - get informed, get ready and take action BEFORE Bird Flu arrives and show that you are behaving in a public-minded and responsible way. No Judge anywhere is ever going to find against you if you do.

 

 

[Guest]

Bruno

 

Three years ago there was an outbreak of Exotic Newcastle Disease in California and one or two other States in the US.  We were in the direct line of flight for birds travelling between CA and Canada..  We sought the advice of a State Avian Vet who was also a flying member of our club, as we were concerned at picking up something from the birds droppings and walking it into the loft.  His advice was not to let the birds ground at all and to keep a pan of disinfected water in front of the loft and walk through it before entering in the loft.

 

 

 

[Guest Doostalker]

Hyacinth, do you have to vaccinate your birds as we do here??

[Guest]

Good thinking Hyacinth,    you're actually into the next phase of my evil plan.

A loft full of confined pigeons [iN ISOLATION] is all very well, but you must also make sure that there is no way in and out for disease. We've already blocked the main route - direct contact with wild birds and their droppings - the next main route is on or in US.

Make sure that you take basic hygiene precautions - washing your hands each and every time you've been in the loft and before you touch anything else in the house.

If you wash your drinkers in the house, use your own 'old' cloths for this and for no other purpose. I have special permission to use my wife's antibacterial washing up liquid which will at least see the bacteria part covered.  

I keep a pair of shoes that gets me from the house to the loft. I keep an old pair of slippers in the loft which I use inside the loft only.

I have deep litter which is based on crushed limestone (calcium carbonate) and a dry disinifect (Stalosan) which covers my perches and nest box floors too. Walking about the loft tends to kick this up and my loft trousers get a coating of it - enough to kill anything that shouldn't be there. If I had a loft coat - it wouldn't leave the loft either.  

I've already said elsewhere I use Virkon S to clean scrapers etc and you could use it to spray any 'damp' patches on or under your perches etc; or limestone or Stalosan or a combination of all 3 as you see fit.  

If you are on a smallholding or farm where other animals or poultry is kept, I would adopt Hyacinth's Boot Wash NOW at all entrance doors at all buildings housing them.

And if you have been out in the park with the children feeding the local birds - Boot Wash and wash your hands as soon as you come back and before you go near the loft.  

[preston powerblast]

The experts agreed that the recent outbreaks of avian influenza in Russia are a cause for concern but that the risk of the virus spreading into the EU via migrating birds is remote or low. They concluded that it would not be proportionate to the current risk of disease to introduce a general ban on keeping poultry outdoors.

 

This is the latest statement by DEFRA

[Guest]

Vaccination is not mandatory by the Unions but is is in some feds and Combines.

 

[Guest]

Slept on your last post, Preston Powerblast, and I am still not clear on the point you are making.  :-/

Sticking to pigeons: Are you suggesting to Fifestay and others who were pretty stirred up by Avian Flu and had little information on it from the government source you quote : Do nothing / There isn't any need?

[preston powerblast]

Thats what the powers that be are saying at the moment.

[Guest]

Thanks for being clear on that, Preston Powerblast. Because THAT is exactly NOT what the-powers-that-be are saying. What you posted was a DEFRA Press Release, a very much cut down version of their full statement. If you had bothered to read it, or post it, you would have found that while everyone else is on the lookout for H5N1, DEFRA are in fact talking about HFA1. They have also requested Continental Europe to step up surveillance. The full statement is available at:

 

 

http://www.defra.gov.uk/news/statements/050826.htm

 

 

(2) The Organic Farming Industry are not happy with DEFRA’s lead either. For the measures the UK poultry farmers want DEFRA to take, see:

 

http://www.organicfarmers.org.uk/news/news_more.php?id=82

 

 

(3) Shadow’s post about the Finland gull also changes the picture. It will be three weeks before we know what this gull was carrying. For this and conflicting expert opinion on it see.

 

http://www.yorkshiretoday.co.uk/ViewArticle2.aspx?SectionID=55&ArticleID=1128662

 

 

My OPINION on how the gull changes the picture is this.

 

(1) DEFRA (and every other birding body) are looking for migrating birds. Don’t think a gull falls under ‘migrating’ birds. There are thousands of them in every UK Port town (on every roof) and on every UK landfill site.

(2) Like all the other ‘line-of-flight’ enthusiasts, my binoculars were trained on a line through central, mainland Europe, Germany, the Balkans, Belguim, France etc. This gull is on the North Atlantic Coast with only Denmark, Norway and the North Sea between the UK and ‘it’.

(3) I cannot believe that it will take three weeks to find out what this gull was carrying. Foot&Mouth had already had a three week head start on DEFRA before they woke up to the fact that it was present and by the time they sat up and paid some attention, they had an epidemic on their hands.

 

Oh, Hyacinth, I've also taken your advice - I've a letter in the post to the SHU asking they take legal advice on the position of pigeon fanciers who lock their birds up before the virus arrives here, should DEFRA order a mass cull of pigeons. My birds are on lock-up from Saturday 27th August 05. Me proof duly posted  :

 

[preston powerblast]

Your point is what, exactly?

Where does it mention pigeons???

Where does it mention mass cull???

Where does defra mention locking birds up???

[Guest]

dont mean to stick my nose in but calm down lads its not a arguing matter

[Guest]

You are very welcome to come in Carter any time you see the need.  

And so are the rest of you.  

This isn't Bruno's conference.  ??)

I don't mind being the go-for, ferreting out information and posting it up for all to see.  

What I do object to though is 'the shoot the messenger mentality' which some of you with minus type fingers are all too ready to adopt. Try using them on a web browser for a change and do something positive and get out there to see what information there is on this thing - an bring it to this forum.

Hyacinth is right - forewarned is forearmed. But we surely need to cover all the angles.

And as for what has this to do with pigeons Preston Powerblast- see the earlier post about the virus for an experiment coming from pigeons; have a look at DEFRA's policy on slaughter during its last epidemic. My point is simple (repeat) 'Cover all the angles'.

[bill_bennie]

First time post for me, but this is the latest from Canada.

 

Dear Dr. Chalmers

 

 

 

Dr. Kaleta recently published review of Avian Influenza (AI) in pigeons and concluded, as I also believe, that pigeons are resistant to avian influenza viruses and have not been a reservoir or vector of the virus. DTW.Deutsche.tierarztliche.Wochenschrift 111(12):467-472, 2004.

 

 

 

Other studies have support the resistance of pigeons to AI virus infections. Some people have confused die-offs in pigeons to avian influenza when paramyxovirus type 1 is a common cause of neurological disease and death in pigeons and not avian influenza.

 

 

 

We have conducted experimental studies in pigeons using viruses isolated from dead pigeons in Thailand. Even direct inoculation of these viruses into nasal cavity of pigeons caused limited infections with between 60-80% of the pigeons not becoming infected. This suggests the mortality from H5N1 HPAI virus in pigeons may have resulted from synergy between AI infection and some other pathogen.

 

 

 

The "illness in school children" is an unsubstantiated rumor. No AI virus was isolated from the children and I am unaware of any evidence of infection.

 

 

 

With this scientific information, it is unlikely that banning pigeons will have any impact on AI ecology and will not reduce the risk AI infections of poultry or humans. The primary species that have natural infections with AI viruses are wild ducks and shorebird (turnstones, gulls, etc.). Columbiformes and passerines are not reservoirs and they are rarely incidental hosts following spill-over of the viruses from infected domestic poultry.

 

 

 

Regards

 

 

 

David E. Swayne, DVM, PhD

Laboratory Director

Southeast Poultry Research Laboratory

USDA/ARS

934 College Station Road

Athens, Georgia

Telephone: 706-546-3433

Fax: 706-546-3161

 

 

[Guest]

Preston,

 

Had it not been for the fact that Kevin Ball is a Lawyer and a Judge and had the knowledge and balls to fight the Federal Canadian Government with the help of Dr. Gordon chalmers, the racing pigeons in the Frazier Valley of Canada would have been exterminated make no mistake about it.  Do you want this to happen in the UK, ignore it until it's too late!!!!!  Don't be an ostrich burying your head in the sand, extract the said head and be prepared for anything that may be thrown at you and the United Kingdom Pigeon Flyers, it could be too late when the externination squads arrive at your loft.

[Guest]

I do not wish to sound like I'm being a prima donna or trying to argue on this poiny but some US Fanciers had the same attitude when Exotic Newcastle Disesase Hit California, Nevada and Arizona a couple of years ago and tried to act as if nothing was going off, unfortunately for the birds some of these guys had their flocks disposed of by the Feds

[jimmy white]

in an earlier post, hyacinth is strongly saying press the unions, i noticed through all these posts, that bruno seems to have done this, to be forwarded is to be forearmed which is good and proper advice,i also have looked at brunos informative post, which at least gives us some insight to the problem, which i must admit i didnt know,but i suspect there are many others like me,i then read roses last comments, and have to agree with her. this is such a wide and varied topic, that every shred of information, from the proper places, should be posted. the last thing we should do is start the gossip brigade, as we know, or as i know,leads to no where, if you tell a pigeon fancier in the street some thing by the time it goes to the tenth fancier, its a completely differant story, so i say stick to the facts, and most of all find out the facts,, the true facts.  most of the papers, news,tv. etc have come up with conflicting evidence, i for one will be reading and taking in all what is said and as i said b4 this is very worrying not only for pigeon fliers but for humans also.

[Guest]

Thank you all for your posts. Thought perhaps the virus had arrived and I had only me for company for the rest of me natural.  :'(  Now there's a scary thought.  ??)

 

Here's another one. This is the authors' cut-down of the original article which sparked off the letter the BHW published on 12/8/05:

 

Outbreaks of highly pathogenic H5N1 avian influenza have occurred in Hong Kong in chickens and other poultry in 1997, 2001, twice in 2002 and 2003. High mortality rates were seen in gallinaceous birds (Bruno – gallinaceous birds = related to or resembling chickens, put the dictionary down, Jimmy) but not in domestic or wild waterfowl or other wild birds until late 2002 when highly pathogenic H5N1 avian influenza occurred in waterfowl (geese, ducks and swans), captive Greater Flamingo ( Phoenicopterus ruber ) and other wild birds (Little Egret Egretta garzetta ) at two waterfowl parks and from two dead wild Grey Heron ( Ardea cinerea ) and a Black-headed Gull ( Larus ridibundus ) in Hong Kong. H5N1 avian influenza virus was also isolated from a dead feral pigeon ( Columba livia ) and a dead tree sparrow ( Passer montanus ) during the second outbreak. The first waterfowl outbreak was controlled by immediate strict quarantine and depopulation 1 week before the second outbreak commenced. Control measures implemented for the second outbreak included strict isolation, culling, increased sanitation and vaccination. Outbreaks in gallinaceous birds occurred in some live poultry markets concurrently with the second waterfowl outbreak, and infection on a chicken farm was detected 1 week after the second waterfowl park outbreak was detected, on the same day the second grey heron case was detected. Subsequent virus surveillance showed the outbreaks had been contained.

 

(Bruno - please note the variety of birds involved here, including a sparrow and a pigeon.)

 

I would then ask you to look again at Bill Bennie's post (and thanks for it):

"virus isolated from dead pigeons in Thailand".

 

I take all your points about nobody really seems to know what they are talking about - EXCEPT maybe the Dutch government and the Dutch Poultry Industry who have been through this before, lost millions of their birds, and one of their own vets - a professional who would have surely been taking all the right precautions - and still died. They have come up with a precaution that we can easily adopt and which harms no-one, our birds, ourselves, our families, our communities: LOCK UP THE BIRDS BEFORE THE VIRUS GETS HERE. Because waiting until then will be too late.

 

 

I can't spell it out any clearer than this. TAKE CARE OF YOURSELVES AND YOUR BIRDS - YOUR LIVES MAY DEPEND UPON IT. Keep Yourself informed and if you hear something - get it posted here, pronto, so that we all know about it, and can get it checked out.

 

BEST REGARDS ALL.