Electrolytes after the race

[Guest]

Thanks, Carl.  ;D

 

Fair chuffed, Jimmy.  ;D  ;D

 

University teachers?    ;D   ;D   ;D

 

An a thocht we wiz in primary yin.  ;D   ;D   ;D   ;D

[Guest Doostalker]

Bruno, keep up the good work. Really enjoyed this thread.

 

By the way, I was reading it as you quoting someone and not necessarily holding the view yourself.  

 

I hope you and Jimmy keep on contributing as the debates you have are always worth reading.......even if they end up with Jimmy drinking Milton to prove a point!!! ;D ;D

[jimmy white]

just tell them bruno ,we were both at YALE  university, in fact we were two of the KEY men there???     cant get smillies, CHEERS   JIMMY,    and doostalker, after buying all that milton from sainsburies,   im sure the girl serving must think i have triplets, at my age, i think i will let her beleive it??? , CHEERS TO YOU TO DOOSTALKER  JIMMY

[Guest]

Er, Higher Biology Lesson 1 : the pigeon's kidney.  :

 

Captured this from Avian Web. Explains one or two things (gently) especially where the 'salts' go: its in the urates, the pasty white part of the dropping. Good bit about Vit D (the parathyroid is part of the kidney) and the sciatic nerve to the legs, a tumour in the kidney can put the bird off its legs.  

 

 

 

 

Avian Urinary System

by Sherri Carpenter

 

The urinary system is the body’s waste removal system. The kidneys' main function is to process and remove wastes (created from cell metabolism) and excess ions from the blood, regulate blood volume and maintain electrolyte balance. The ureters carry the wastes down to the cloaca where they exit out of the body.

 

 

 

 

 

Most birds, with the exception of Ostriches and rheas, lack a urinary bladder. Birds excrete urate instead of the toxic urea as mammals do. Urea (which is very toxic), is flushed from the body with a great amount of water. Urate (non toxic), a waste product from nitrogenous metabolism, is largely insoluble and uses very little water to excrete. This is probably an adaptation for water conservation in dryer climates.

 

Another reason birds excrete urate instead of urea has to do with egg laying. The embryo is sealed within the egg and can only release gaseous waste products before it hatches. All other metabolic wastes, including nitrogenous wastes remain within the egg until hatching. There would be little room in the egg for the large amount of water needed to release urea, whereas the insoluble urates can be stored harmlessly until it hatches.

 

Avian kidneys are considerably larger in comparison to those of humans and reptiles. They have three lobes, a cranial (top), middle and caudal (bottom). They are lacking the defined cortex, medulla or renal pelvis found in mammals.

 

Avian kidneys are divided into units called lobules. The lobules have a cortex (outer area) and medullary cone. Nephrons are located in the lobules and empty into the collecting ducts that surround the lobule.

 

The lumbosacral nerves (sciatic) run through the kidneys. If a tumour is present, it may push on the nerves and cause paralysis of one or both legs.

 

The nephrons, (millions of them) are the structural and functional units of the kidney found in the lobules. These consist of the glomerulus, which is a knot of capillaries, loop of Henle, the renal tubule and the peritubular capillaries. One end of the renal tubule surrounds the glomerulus with a very porous membrane; it is called the Bowman's capsule.

 

The glomerulus is both fed and drained from small arteries called arterioles and its blood pressure is very high. Water and solutes smaller than proteins are forced through the capillary walls and pores of the glomerular capsule into the renal tubule. This fluid is called, filtrate. Water, glucose, amino acids, and needed ions are transported out of the filtrate back into the capillary blood. The peritubular capillaries are low pressure porous vessels that reabsorb the solutes and water and return them to the veins leaving the cortex. Substances such as hydrogen, potassium, and nitrogenous wastes move from the blood of the peritubular capillaries through the tubule cells and into the collecting ducts (located in the medullary cones) and transported as urate.

 

Birds have differing types of nephrons.

(1) A reptile type that has a small glomerulus and no loops, which is found entirely in the cortex.

(2) a mammal type, with its convoluted tubules within the cortex and its loop descending into the medullary cone, which is capable of concentrating urine.

 

The mammal type has a high filtration rate and is always on, while the reptile type has lower filtration rate and shuts down during heavy salt loads. This strategy conserves water and maximizes urine concentration during osmotic challenges.

 

The majority of uric acid is secreted by the tubules of the reptilian type nephrons. As soon as the uric acid starts to crystallise in the kidney, the microvillus in the proximal tubule encapsulates the crystal with a protein coat formulating a highly soluble colloidal particle. This particle transports the uric acid through the nephrons to the ureters and into the cloaca along with urine.

 

The cloaca consists of three compartments. The coprodeum, receives the faeces, the urodeum receives the ureters and the gonadal ducts and the proctodeum is the common discharge area before the vent.

 

Once in the cloaca, both urine and the uric acid particles are sent to the large intestine where microorganisms recover the protein coat of the uric acid particle and water and electrolytes in the urine can be reabsorbed and balanced. Any free amino acids and sugars are taken up by specific transporters from the large intestines. The rest is than sent back into the cloaca. Uric acid functions as a magnet to pick off free radicals. Studies have shown that reduction of uric acid in chickens increases the rate of tissue ageing to a rate found in human diabetics.

 

Other kidney functions include a precursor for the synthesis of Vitamin D3 for the absorption of calcium. The kidneys response to excess circulating phosphorus triggers the parathyroid gland to secret a hormone to adjust and balance the concentration of calcium and phosphorus. The hormone does this by promoting phosphorus excretion in the urine and activation removal of calcium from bone. The production of red blood cells by bone marrow is stimulated by the erythropoietin, which is produced by the kidneys when red blood cells are in short supply and/or delivery of oxygen to the tissues are in inadequate.

 

Taking a regular look at your birds' droppings can help alert you if something is wrong. Knowing what the changes look like in consistency and colour from eating fruits and veggies may also help you evaluate if something is really wrong. Using regular newspaper or plain paper makes it easier to evaluate the droppings.

 

There are three parts to a birds droppings.

(a) Faeces are usually solid, come from the colon and are usually coiled (not always). Colour is usually green or brownish from eating pellets, seeds or veggies but can turn red for strawberries or red pellets. Blueberries and blackberries will produce an almost black like faeces.

( Urates are chalky white.

© Urine is clear.

 

 

Urates and urine can together create a cloudy white mix. It helps to know what your bird has been eating that day. Here is a general list of colours for possible serious problems.

Green or Yellow Urates - Liver Disease, Anorexia

Brown or Chocolate Urates - Lead Poisoning

Red Urine or Urates - Internal Bleeding

Increased Urates - Dehydration

Increased Urine - Disease, Eating foods high in water content, Drinking a lot

 

 

[stucky 1]

In y/b specalist book from nigel cowood he uses rock salt it going to be next big thing non refined.

[speedbird]

some interesting points raised so have we come to a outcome is it ok or not for em?

[Guest shadow]

Personally the only thing I put in the drinker for bird coming home from the race is honey

fly hard fly fair.

[MsPigeon]

Knowledge is a wonderful thing, the more the better. We are then able to make informed decisions. I have thoroughly enjoyed this post from a knowledge-acquiring standpoint. Although some of the posts were a little too technical and long-winded, I enjoyed and learned from them all, both about pigeons and human nature.

In my opinion nothing beats a constant, consistent routine. Pigeons are adaptable and quickly adapt to and expect the things you do and give them; if electrolytes are part of your routine then they get used to having them and probably wouldn’t do as well without. But do they really need them? Maybe a strain of birds has been developed that has adapted to getting rid of the excess salt they are given.

Respectfully Carol

[Guest]

Discovered 'owned' more info on 'what happens in flight' in a Gordon Chalmers article. Confirms 'urates' are retained by the bird to help it cool down on the way home. 'Salts' stay on board, only water is lost. Additional stuff though.

 

Cut from article, and cut down:  

 

[justify]Flight in birds involves elaborate organisation and intricate co-ordination of several systems, including not only the working muscles themselves, but also the interactions of the heart, blood vessels, lungs, air sacs, nervous system, several important hormones, the metabolism of fuels and regulation of body temperature . Their body processes normally function at a very high rate. They also have a normally high body temperature (107 - 108F) which is markedly increased during flight and therefore needs to be controlled and regulated. It is estimated that the amount of heat produced by the pigeon’s muscles during flight increases to over eight times more than the heat produced by a resting bird. In flight, most species of birds lose more water by evaporation from the body than they produce through metabolism. Add to this the possibility of excessively high environmental temperatures during the race and it becomes obvious that overheating of the racing bird can become a distinct reality. For these reasons it is highly critical that birds should possess built-in regulatory processes to control the body temperature and loss of water during sustained flight.

 

Among other complex relationships in the pigeon’s body the uric acid, that circulates in the blood stream prior to being eliminated through the kidneys probably has a very important role to play in preventing or decreasing the effects of the excessive heat created by working muscle and high environmental temperatures. Heat generated during flight is removed via the air sacs and lungs through the nose and mouth, from the bare areas of the legs and possibly from the network of tiny blood vessels that sweep up each side of the neck. During flight, levels of uric acid in the blood stream increase significantly and are now believed to be one component of the complex processes used by the pigeon to stop its body overheating during flight. (Uric acid levels increase dramatically in the blood stream of migrating birds during flight, as well as in human athletes subjected to exhausting exercise.)

 

The pigeon's brain produces a hormone called melatonin which seems to be important in dealing with heat stress. During flight, increased levels of melatonin are secreted into the blood stream which combined with uric acid from the breakdown of protein, help the bird reduce high body temperatures. Melatonin dilates blood vessels near the surface of the body, increasing the amount of heat loss. For example, the rate of heat loss from the legs and feet of the pigeon during flight has been estimated to be about six times as much as it is from the legs and feet of a resting bird. By comparison, the cooling power of the beating wings during flight is of only minor importance. [/justify]

[CREBAG]

I USED TO USE ELECTROLYTES ETC, BUT THE ONLY THING A PIGEON NEEDS AFTER A RACE IS FRESH WATER (PREFERABLY NOT VERY COLD) AND A GOOD FEED, IVE READ QUITE ALOT OF BOOKS ON PIGEONS AS IVE ONLY BEEN RACING SINCE Y.BS 2003, AND 99% SAY GIVE LIGHT FEED AFTER RACE?  WOT A LOAD OF COSWALLOP, I GIVE MY BIRDS A 3 PINT DRINKER FULL OF 40% W/HOOD, 40% Y.B AND 20% DEPURATIVE AND SEED AND LET THEM PICK WHAT THEY WANT AFTER EACH RACE, THEY'VE ALREADY MISSED 2 MEALS I.E FRI NIGHT SAT MORN SO WHY DEPRIVE OF FOOD ANY LONGER, I KNOW ALOT OF YOU WILL PROBABLY DISAGREE BUT TRY IT, AND WATCH YOUR BIRDS FLY SUNDAY INSTEAD OF HAVING A QUICK BATH AND THEN PECKING AROUND FOR FOOD.

[speedbird]

think you have alot to learn crebag lisen to the guys that ave been around more than 2seasons!!! thats one of the reasons you give em a light feed thats easy to digest they corge the food & surley they would prefer a rest & bath than flying

[Guest]

Got to agree with Speedbird.  

 

I think I know what you are trying to achieve Crebag, (replace energy reserves and repair flight damaged muscles quickly) but I'm not sure that this is the 'best' way to go about doing it.  

 

I think if you've followed the thread and ALL the posts, then I think we must agree the bird's systems have been put through some real stress.  Personally, I agree with your fresh water - and the very first place to start the recovery process - get the bird out of the dehydration bit quickly and make a start on flushing all those 'natural' toxins from the blood.

 

But I don't see much sense in giving the bird a 'normal + ' feed BEFORE the sh** in the bloodstream is flushed out. Also, the gut surely needs a chance to convert over to normal too - its been working a lot differently in flight - and maybe a light feed of easily digested 'sweeties' is all it and the bird needs in the first hour or two after returning from the race.

 

And I think rest & a bath are part of the recovery process too.

[MsPigeon]

I agree Bruno, but I think it is best to kick them out of the loft the next day, not just bath and rest. Even if they just trap right back in. I beleave that leaving them in the loft to just sit around does nothing for helping them get rid of those toxins and only leads to them getting stiff and sore.

Carol

[jimmy white]

cannot agree more   this is all part of their recovery, iused to put hot water in the bath , beleive it or not  the birds absolutely loved it  [ not too hot off course]

[carl]

Get yourself down the gym for a good work out,theres nothing better than a nice warm bath when you get home to relax those worked musles

[jimmy white]

i think your heading shoud have been,under , the plural,,,     the kidneys,,,, as new starters could be a bit confused in thinking they had one kidney  its me that has one kidney  and im no  kiddenye,, good article though

[carl]

After following this article and and searching a few other sites i think all my birds will get after a race next year is glucose or hunny and fresh water with a light feed after they have rested for a while..Has anyone heard of fructose (i think thats how its spelt)i was told was another kind of glucose..

[carl]

Just done a quick search

 

Fructose

 

Also known as “fruit sugar”, fructose is roughly 50% sweeter than ordinary sugar, tastes wonderful, and does not raise blood sugar levels like table sugar. When taken in moderation, fructose can be taken by diabetics after first consulting with their physician.

 

How do I substitute Fructose for table sugar in recipes?

 

Fructose is derived from corn and is approximately 1.8 times sweeter than regular table sugar. Unfortunately we cannot supply an exact equivalency for substituting Fructose for table sugar. Experimentation will yield the best results, keeping in mind how much sweeter Fructose is. In general, if a recipe calls for 1 cup of sugar, a little over a 1/2 of a cup should be close. Sweeten to taste is the best advice! Fructose also provides the additional benefit of supplying fewer calories than table sugar.

[Guest shadow]

Be careful using that carl it may also contain some kind of preservative to prevent it going of once the bottle has been opened. Stick to  :)honey

[Guest]

Forgotten most of my sugars. Normally end with ‘ose’, but can be confusing as there is another ‘techy’ ‘ose’ which describes the sugar molecule, e.g. a pentose sugar has 5 atoms; hexose, 6 etc.

 

 

Sugars are carbohydrates: this means that they contain the elements Carbon, Hydrogen and Oxygen. The simplest sugars are called monosugars or monosaccharides. Glucose is the simplest sugar that can be used directly by the body. It is dissolved in the blood. Its molecules are small enough to pass across cell membranes into the cell, and be used directly by it. (Reason for the “quick lift” effect)

 

The "sugar" we put in our tea or coffee is called sucrose. This sugar molecule is much too big to get into our blood so it has to be digested. Digestion simply means broken down (by enzyme action) into a simpler form(s) which the body can use directly.

 

Glucose and Fructose are similar. (monosugars).

 

Sucrose is a disaccharide and the plant equivalent of glucose (moves round the plant in their equivalent of a bloodstream). It is also stored by some plants such as sugar cane and sugar beet.

 

2. OCCURRENCE

 

a) glucose also known as dextrose, found in fruit, vegetables, honey, glucose syrup (also known as confectioners' glucose and corn syrup) and invert sugar syrup (a product manufactured from sucrose)

 

fructose found in fruit, vegetables, honey and invert sugar syrup,

 

c) lactose found only in milk and products made from milk,

 

d) maltose found in malt and glucose syrup,

 

e) sucrose found in fruit and vegetables, made commercially from sugar-cane and sugar-beet.

 

Glucose and fructose are monosaccharides. The other three are disaccharides. Oligosaccharides are found in small quantities in some fruits and vegetables, and honey; and as major components of glucose syrup. Glucose syrup is manufactured from starch by hydrolysis, using enzymes. There are several varieties, differing in sweetness and other properties according to the relative proportions of glucose and the various oligosaccharides. Starches are the major component of staple foods such as cereals, rice, cassava, and potatoes, and to a lesser extent in vegetables.

 

More on sugar (surprised to learn it is also a preservative) at:

 

 

http://www.international-confectionery.com/uploads/files/Sugars.pdf

 

 

[carl]

Very intresting thanks for that bruno,yes i was told fructose goes straight to the system for a quick pick me up.Does anyone give glucose/fructose before the birds going away to race,would it be any good for the birds.