Good Bacteria(Probiotics)

[Guest IB]

IB I do not know what microscope you are using or are you quoting from what someone else has said? There is no way you are able to identify bacteria types under a normal microscope. I think you have a lot to offer us, but if you continually want to talk above the heads of most of us and try to show off, the way you are doing, you will soon become ignored. I hope that does not happen because you could be a great help. In addition to what I have just said, I think you should satisfy some of us by saying how well you are able to fly the birds. Because at the end of the day, that is what this is all about. Turning theory into practice and demonstrating that the results follow.  

 

I’ll post separately about results.

 

The information comes from separate personal experiences. From School Biology, I remember two bacterial types. There are others but I know these two. Late 2004? I needed to consult a vet for the 1st time with a bird with a lame wing. I’d been frightened by what I’d read about Paratyphoid in BHW, and I was terrified that this bird had it, and that the rest were about to go the same way. The bird had an infected shoulder joint, and the vet took 5ml of cloudy fluid from it. Joint fluid should be clear, so he put a sample on a slide and stained it. Gram staining is another method of identifying bacteria under the microscope. (Gram-positive and Gram-negative bacteria have already been spoken of by others on this thread). The vet found bacteria there, all dot-shaped cocci. I was visibly relieved at hearing that, because I knew salmonella was a bacillus, but I double-checked that with him. He burst out laughing and asked if I had spent my life studying pigeon diseases. No I had not, but I knew from what I had learnt at school that I did not have paratyphoid simply because the bacteria on the slide were the wrong shape.  I think it’s the 100x oil lens that’s needed to see bacteria. I barely remember using that at school, and I’ve not had the need to use it here.

 

I also know that bacterial colonies can sometimes form recognizable patterns. I have attached two stained slides taken from the internet showing rods and dots. The dots are in a short chain pattern which may give someone who works with them everyday some clue as to what they might be. They will know right away though that they are not e coli, salmonella or lactobacillus, because they are the wrong shape for that. The other slide shows rods, so they know right away it isn’t streptococcus. But it will require a lot more lab work to identify just exactly what is on each slide. In my case, I never found out, as the lab was unable to culture my sample because all the bacteria were dead. But I got other valuable information for my £30. The bacteria had been killed by the bird’s immune system. That’s when I began taking a deep interest in the immune system.

 

[Guest IB]

IB In addition to what I have just said, I think you should satisfy some of us by saying how well you are able to fly the birds. Because at the end of the day, that is what this is all about. Turning theory into practice and demonstrating that the results follow.

 

I tend to say nothing about my results and p/basics members are more likely to hear from me about my mistakes, asking their help to correct them.  I consider race results have nothing at all to do with any work I do on this forum, and in my view they are irrelevant.

 

I only stepped onto the 1st rung of the ladder in 2009 when my team was made up of 2-yo, yearlings and YBs. This was my first crack at channel racing, that’s the level of competition I want to compete in. Turn to BHW January 8th issue, page 14, ‘Laurieston Homing Society’. I was the only Laurieston member to time in SNFC / SCC Falaise 508 miles, sent 2, timed 2, so that won me two trophies for Falaise. The third trophy won was for best average over the 3 Fed Opens and Falaise: that’s Newark 220 miles, Maidstone 375 miles, Wakefield YBs 185 miles and Falaise, 508 miles. I also won joint 1st for most points in YBs, awarded for ability to pick out in advance my first pigeon home in each race.

 

In SNFC itself, my first time racing the channel with them, I won my first 2 diplomas. 277th Open and 27th Section D , (4243 birds) Eastbourne, 399 miles; and 89th Open (1242 birds) Ypres 450 miles (a yearling). My Falaise pigeons didn’t make the result, and out of respect for my Laurieston club mates to balance what I said in Falaise, I’d like to add that I was the only Laurieston member who didn’t time in SNFC YB National.

[Guest Owen]

IB

Well you are right about the lens and the oil emersion to see bacteria. You are also right about the staining to be able to actually see what is on the slide. And I think you are roughly right about your description of the bacteria types and what they look like. But I doubt that you are able to actually recognise specific bacteria. I know that when I was faced with numbers of cultures, I could not distinguish one from another, and the Vet I was dealing with sent them to a Specialist Lab for recognition and sensitivity testing.

Where we part company is that although this sort of analysis can be done in a lab. where the cultures can be the follow up, there is little chance that a Pigeon Fancier can carry out this exercise. And it very unlikely that an Amateur could either collect the uncontaminated samples or carry out the staining properly. And it would be virtually impossible, if not quite dangerous, for a Pigeon Fancier to attempt to lay down cultures. And even if he could he would not be able to carry out sensitivity and identify the correct antibiotic to use.

So perhaps you will agree to come back down to earth and stop all this bull.

The basics of what is required by us ordinary Fliers is to know how to recognise when we have a problem, and, how we can manage the health of our birds in the best way possible. That to me is what I call, "must know information". The rest of it is beyond the bounds of what is worth knowing. As I have said before, we are not scientists, and never will be, so surely we should leave the science to those who have the training to deal with it. My fear is that you do not have the level of knowledge that you would need to expound your views as if they are facts. And this could lead to big problems for those who could take your advice.

I would like to think that you will agree to talk about the management of racing pigeons and leave the science to the Scientists.

And well done on your racing achievements. I am sure, given a bit more time, you can and will do very well. I would certainly like to hear that your pigeons are winning out of turn. Now that is the sort of thing that impresses pigeon fanciers.        

[holmsidelofts]

 

I’ll post separately about results.

 

The information comes from separate personal experiences. From School Biology, I remember two bacterial types. There are others but I know these two. Late 2004? I needed to consult a vet for the 1st time with a bird with a lame wing. I’d been frightened by what I’d read about Paratyphoid in BHW, and I was terrified that this bird had it, and that the rest were about to go the same way. The bird had an infected shoulder joint, and the vet took 5ml of cloudy fluid from it. Joint fluid should be clear, so he put a sample on a slide and stained it. Gram staining is another method of identifying bacteria under the microscope. (Gram-positive and Gram-negative bacteria have already been spoken of by others on this thread). The vet found bacteria there, all dot-shaped cocci. I was visibly relieved at hearing that, because I knew salmonella was a bacillus, but I double-checked that with him. He burst out laughing and asked if I had spent my life studying pigeon diseases. No I had not, but I knew from what I had learnt at school that I did not have paratyphoid simply because the bacteria on the slide were the wrong shape.  I think it’s the 100x oil lens that’s needed to see bacteria. I barely remember using that at school, and I’ve not had the need to use it here.

 

I also know that bacterial colonies can sometimes form recognizable patterns. I have attached two stained slides taken from the internet showing rods and dots. The dots are in a short chain pattern which may give someone who works with them everyday some clue as to what they might be. They will know right away though that they are not e coli, salmonella or lactobacillus, because they are the wrong shape for that. The other slide shows rods, so they know right away it isn’t streptococcus. But it will require a lot more lab work to identify just exactly what is on each slide. In my case, I never found out, as the lab was unable to culture my sample because all the bacteria were dead. But I got other valuable information for my £30. The bacteria had been killed by the bird’s immune system. That’s when I began taking a deep interest in the immune system.

 

What you have to remember is there are 100,000's of bacteria that are rod shaped as well as dot shape. as owen as said you Cannot identify what bacteria they are by looking at them. We know this because both me and owen attended a microscope course together with one of the top pigeon vets in the uk. We asked him to put a course together to understand bacteria and how to identify it and it was made clear to us on that course that the only thing you can tell is if the bird has a bacteria count but the only way to identify it was through growing cultures in a lab, something that you cant do at home and something you should never try to do as salmonella in pigeon can kill humans to, not the sort of thing you want to mess with.

 

You are right in the process at looking at bacteria through staining and oil immerse lenses, thats how we did it with the vet but the only benefit is to tell you if you have a high count and nothing else.

Owen and i are not trying to put you down but we have done it first hand with the experts so what we are telling you is fact not something we have read in a book or seen online.

 

Good luck with the season ahead.

jas.

 

[Guest IB]

Owen & Jason. I don't see pigeon fanciers wanting to get into bacteria at that level and I wouldn't recommend it either, it sounds pretty dangerous to me. And opening a sachet of Flightpath and mixing it with oil to go on my birds food once a month is close enough  and often enough involvement with bacteria for me too thanks.

 

Best wishes for the coming season to you both. Must admit I'm really looking forward to it myself.

[ch pied]

 

What you have to remember is there are 100,000's of bacteria that are rod shaped as well as dot shape. as owen as said you Cannot identify what bacteria they are by looking at them. We know this because both me and owen attended a microscope course together with one of the top pigeon vets in the uk. We asked him to put a course together to understand bacteria and how to identify it and it was made clear to us on that course that the only thing you can tell is if the bird has a bacteria count but the only way to identify it was through growing cultures in a lab, something that you cant do at home and something you should never try to do as salmonella in pigeon can kill humans to, not the sort of thing you want to mess with.

 

You are right in the process at looking at bacteria through staining and oil immerse lenses, thats how we did it with the vet but the only benefit is to tell you if you have a high count and nothing else.

Owen and i are not trying to put you down but we have done it first hand with the experts so what we are telling you is fact not something we have read in a book or seen online.

 

Good luck with the season ahead.

jas.

Ihave been reading this thread with a great deal of interest , ? who was the vet & how much did the course cost .

 

 

[Guest Owen]

ch pied

the Vet was David Parsons from Wincanton in Somerset. I can not remember how much it cost but it was not all that much. Originally I did a short course with Brunell Microscopes and it was later I have done three Courses with David. The last course was at our request because we wanted to learn about bacteria and repiratory bacteria in particular.

When I catch up with David I want to ask him if he will run yet another course because there are things I want to understand more.

Using a microscope to the level where you can recognise the normal things we get problems with is not too bad to learn. I have taught quite a few, but if you become interested in the more difficult stuff you have to have the help of someone like David Parsons.

I have helped people on this forum by guiding them through it and showing the pictures of what to look for. It is not the best way to learn but it can be done.  

[holmsidelofts]

Owen & Jason. I don't see pigeon fanciers wanting to get into bacteria at that level and I wouldn't recommend it either, it sounds pretty dangerous to me. And opening a sachet of Flightpath and mixing it with oil to go on my birds food once a month is close enough  and often enough involvement with bacteria for me too thanks.

 

Best wishes for the coming season to you both. Must admit I'm really looking forward to it myself.

 

Yes me to mate, was only talking to owen earlier about the coming season. you paired up yet? for me thats the start of things to come, cant wait for it all to kick off.

 

good luck to you to matey.

 

Jas.

 

[Guest IB]

 

Yes me to mate, was only talking to owen earlier about the coming season. you paired up yet? for me thats the start of things to come, cant wait for it all to kick off.

 

good luck to you to matey.

 

Jas.

 

No a bit to go yet. Been to vet and got my sample bottles for droppings test. Depending on result, treatment. Then PMV jag. By that time I'll have worked out best date for pairing that will suit both OBs going over the channel, and YBs being a reasonable age when YB racing comes round. Left it till late March last year, OK for OBs but nightmare with YBs. Its a spreadsheet job and so far last week February / 1st week in March seem best, and if I can get a full moon on either of those weeks, that will be final decider. For first time will try to get 20+ team of first round for racing, usually do half and half, but last year found the 2nd round to be too young, so maybes 6 of them this year, trained only. Just plans & paper at moment, applying the lessons learned from last years' mistakes..

 

 

[Guest IB]

Ihave been reading this thread with a great deal of interest , ? who was the vet & how much did the course cost .

 

(Confirmed David Parsons)

 

David advertised his courses in BHW, and Bilco also plugged them, but he's not exactly central for Britain, so couldn't make it. If you go to his website though, you can purchase the notes and handouts from this course for around £10. Did that a couple of years ago and also bought his DVD when it came out. He was doing a free droppings test as an introductory offer if you bought the DVD, so got a free droppings test from him at time.

 

I emailed Napier University, Edinburgh and Glasgow Veterinary College last year asking if they would run a similar course up here. No reply. I'm sure Tom Pennycott at SAC might be able to get something going there, but South Ayrshire isn't exactly central for Scotland either.