views on theses products

[Guest Taylors Choice]

where can you get redcell?

 

http://pigeons.taylorschoice.co.uk/products/166698_red_cell_pro-pell_500ml.php

[Guest madpup]

Gan get the Baitril doon there throut :) non better

[Guest IB]

 

FUNNY THING IS TONY BROUGHT A HELL OF A LOT INTO THIS COUNTRY  FOR HIS OWN GAINS   ;) ;)

 

I've seen some of his auction pieces in BHW.  

 

When it comes down to it, I think thats what most of this is about, marketing & salesmanship, 'you can't win without these products', 'you cannot hope to be at the top without X strain of pigeons'. They create a market that some are only too willing to buy into, and before you know it, ordinary joes repeat the same hype parrot-fashion,  'you can't win without them'.

 

So we've created a multimillion pound business, which always involves a transfer of money out of many hands into just a few.

[holmsidelofts]

Just wanted to add recollections from racing in 1960's. Competition was every bit as keen and performances included day pigeons at 300+ 400+ and 500+ miles, on the day was always the target.

 

Sick pigeons were the exception. And yes they were disposed of. Double edged sword, nobody really knew much about pigeon diseases, but there wasn't any need to, there were very few about in those days as eradication was an end reult of culling sick stock.

 

You could look at it from this point of view as well ib. No one treated so all the birds had similar levels of disease. all the common disease were around then cocci, canker, worms, respiratory disease etc so everyone was competing on the same level, sorry but you cant compare races back then to know, the standard today is much higher than in the 60' 70's they would never be able to compete with us today. going back to the disease side if you want to compete with the best today birds have to be 100% healthy and free of disease otherwise you wont compete week in week out with the top fanciers who do treat.

 

Also to say there wasnt anything around then is incorrect, people just couldnt identify or treat for them, common diseases have always been there.

 

 

[BLACK W F]

 

I've seen some of his auction pieces in BHW.  

 

When it comes down to it, I think thats what most of this is about, marketing & salesmanship, 'you can't win without these products', 'you cannot hope to be at the top without X strain of pigeons'. They create a market that some are only too willing to buy into, and before you know it, ordinary joes repeat the same hype parrot-fashion,  'you can't win without them'.

 

So we've created a multimillion pound business, which always involves a transfer of money out of many hands into just a few.

there is 1 or 2 products    out there which used right what they where meant for are are a great help its the people who misuse them the problem is    its the same old saying fools and money   ;) ;)

[Guest mick bowler]

Cough and your off/bucket,unless it has scored from 500 miles.JMO.

 

Natural immunity.But if the pigeon  has proven itself at the highest level then it will be giving a chance.But only the once.

 

Interesting quotes there, sorry for the change of subject, but are you saying birds that win at 500 miles are better than those that win at 100, 200 or 300 etc?

 

 

[soapy]

                      hi chatters  my birds never at any time dropped like flies , still dont, and i never seen young bird sickness yet .

[panda.dixon]

Avisal          nver used

red cell        good for stock while breeding

Ronidazol     wouldnt be without it

gemthepax   never used it

orego stim    try herban its stronger and more effective

doxycycline   wouldnt be without it

sedochol       super product aids condition

tkk               never used it

prastop         good product

[soapy]

                            looks like i,m putting my birds in the basketevery week with birds with no imune system

[soapy]

hi aber valley      all the bacteria an viruses were on the planet before us , the birds in the fifties and sixties were fighting them with a healthy imune system since the use of all these antibiotics mentioned they have cont stantly mutated and made a lot of the earlyantibiotcs useless the t.b.  and the flu jab are not antibiots they are small doses of dead vacine to stimulate our imune systems.

[holmsidelofts]

hi aber valley      all the bacteria an viruses were on the planet before us , the birds in the fifties and sixties were fighting them with a healthy imune system since the use of all these antibiotics mentioned they have cont stantly mutated and made a lot of the earlyantibiotcs useless the t.b.  and the flu jab are not antibiots they are small doses of dead vacine to stimulate our imune systems.

 

regardless of the use of antibiotics all virus's and bacteria will do what ever it can to survive if that means mutating then thats what happens. to say all the virus's and bacteria where on the plant before us isnt correct. new virus's and bacteria are being found year in year out. most of them are not mutations of other virus's but new ones. you are correct about the vaccine side of things. to say birds dont have healthy immune systems today is also wrong, some birds are prone more to disease than others and yes that could be to do with the way they are treated but on the whole i would say there are birds now with better immune systems than there where in the sixties. Its not all about the medication that makes an immune system good but also what they are fed and the availability of supplements like vitamins, minerals, pro and pre biotics etc these all also strengthen the immune system to along with all the vaccines available to us.

 

 

 

[dwh]

holmside are some of the fanciers on this sight saying that anti's destroy immunity for good cos that wat it reads like surley the immunity system repairs itself ?

[Guest strapper]

hi aber valley      all the bacteria an viruses were on the planet before us , the birds in the fifties and sixties were fighting them with a healthy imune system since the use of all these antibiotics mentioned they have cont stantly mutated and made a lot of the earlyantibiotcs useless the t.b.  and the flu jab are not antibiots they are small doses of dead vacine to stimulate our imune systems.

 

evolution doesnt take antibiotics but still its changes the world over...its been doing it from the start of time.

 

newcastle disease was around in the early days ,it didnt just effect pigeons but many smaller birds .

now there are meds to combat this.

back in the early days of pigeon racing..as already stated in another post ,there wasnt enough known about diseases but they have been around far longer than when they were 1st disscovered.

they dont just pop up and the scientists say .oh lets call this that...it would have been studied for many years 1st.

adeno virus 2 which affects old birds has been known for 20 yrs but only recently do fanciers really hear this.

and you hear of fanciers who flew back then saying..'well we didnt have it in our day '

 

 

[BLACK W F]

 

evolution doesnt take antibiotics but still its changes the world over...its been doing it from the start of time.

 

newcastle disease was around in the early days ,it didnt just effect pigeons but many smaller birds .

now there are meds to combat this.

back in the early days of pigeon racing..as already stated in another post ,there wasnt enough known about diseases but they have been around far longer than when they were 1st disscovered.

they dont just pop up and the scientists say .oh lets call this that...it would have been studied for many years 1st.

adeno virus 2 which affects old birds has been known for 20 yrs but only recently do fanciers really hear this.

and you hear of fanciers who flew back then saying..'well we didnt have it in our day '

 

 

should give liverpool football team the lot might improve their performances  cant make them worse than what they are  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

[holmsidelofts]

holmside are some of the fanciers on this sight saying that anti's destroy immunity for good cos that wat it reads like surley the immunity system repairs itself ?

 

It looks that way dwh. I look at it from this perspective. it takes a lot of abuse to do serious damage to the immune system. how many times in our life time have we taken antibiotics, hundreds of times. the life expectancy of humans isnt decreasing infact we are living longer all thanks to these things we call antibiotics and viral vaccines. I dont condone abuse of antibiotics but they have a valuable place in keeping us and our birds alive when they need them. but they must be prescribed by a qualified vet in my opinion.

 

 

 

[Guest IB]

 

You could look at it from this point of view as well ib. No one treated so all the birds had similar levels of disease. all the common disease were around then cocci, canker, worms, respiratory disease etc so everyone was competing on the same level, sorry but you cant compare races back then to know, the standard today is much higher than in the 60' 70's they would never be able to compete with us today. going back to the disease side if you want to compete with the best today birds have to be 100% healthy and free of disease otherwise you wont compete week in week out with the top fanciers who do treat.

 

Also to say there wasnt anything around then is incorrect, people just couldnt identify or treat for them, common diseases have always been there.

 

 

Jason, I think it's the overuse of the word 'disease' that is part of the present problem. Irrespective of heath management systems, I think that pigeons are normally very healthy and hardy individuals, and sick or diseased ones are few and far between. I think we humans are the same. Yes we may suffer the odd cold and feel a bit off-colour now and again, stomach upsets & the like, but because we are basically healthy we fight these everyday knocks off without medication.

 

There was medications around in the 60's too. I can remember stuff like individual pills for wormimg; we also had similar books like Wendell Levi's The Pigeon, a classic now, and 'Keep your pigeon's Flying' (memory, author??) which are still quoted by the likes of Gordon Chalmers today.

[dwh]

 

Jason, I think it's the overuse of the word 'disease' that is part of the present problem. Irrespective of heath management systems, I think that pigeons are normally very healthy and hardy individuals, and sick or diseased ones are few and far between. I think we humans are the same. Yes we may suffer the odd cold and feel a bit off-colour now and again, stomach upsets & the like, but because we are basically healthy we fight these everyday knocks off without medication.

 

There was medications around in the 60's too. I can remember stuff like individual pills for wormimg; we also had similar books like Wendell Levi's The Pigeon, a classic now, and 'Keep your pigeon's Flying' (memory, author??) which are still quoted by the likes of Gordon Chalmers today.

 

quite agree  stress i think has a part to playand atired stressed bird looks ill so maybe the fancier sees this and instead of resting his team or pigeon  incorrectly diagnoses them as bring ill and reaches 4 the potions

like strapper said its the man not the medication

 

[ch pied]

Vel's arn't any higher to-day than they were 40-50-60 year's ago , feed was what you could get to suit your pocket , real basic, with a dose of johnston's tonic now & again and that was it . Unlike the bird's of to-day , that get everything at a whim , cough , sneeze , or splutter . Take away their pharmacutial crutch and your left with 1 big sick report . Our prob's really started from the mid-late 60's when fancier's adopted the way's in which med's where being used by our continintal cousin's on a weekly basis . Med's at the right time is the name of the game .

[Guest IB]

Memory returned: Leon Whitney wrote 'Keep your pigeons flying'.

 

Gordon Chalmers quotes from Leon's book in his informative pieces on canker and cocci. Read about 'Jones Barns' Canker Strain  back in 1960's but just didn't grasp the meaning, or the theme. The theme of the piece was exposure to background levels of a safe form of the organism gives the bird immunity against the deadlier strains, and is like a vaccination against the disease. Applies to cocci too, and when under his orders for hairworm, David Parsons told me the same about my background levels cocci count. This was confirmed last year when my current vet told me I had very significant levels of cocci, so high that he was surprised I didn't have the disease. Talking last years reult over with the same vet last week, he agreed that what we are seeing in my birds 'probably' is immunity to cocci & possibly canker too. I've had worms once, which was down to some introductions. I've never treated before for canker, cocci or worms, or since, so immunity on the worms front looks promising too.

 

On the same theme of stuff that has been around for a good many years, salmonella / paratyphoid has been known about for at least 75 years. And the two bacteria that we speak of most, salmonella and e coli have been around for 100 million years, my book talks frequently of them evolving from a common ancestor then. So they were there when the dinosaurs were, the ancestors of birds, and these animals seemed able to survive..

[ch pied]

have read the book , Scharg & whitney , good book

[Guest IB]

have read the book , Scharg & whitney , good book

 

Luckily the pigeon & keep your pigeons flying are available in my local library, Falkirk, the pigeon you can only browse in the library, whitney's book you can get out, just request it in advance.

[soapy]

                     bacteria and viruses took three and a half million years to get to where they are now. to say that there are new viruses is nonsense , they are mutations

[dwh]

                     bacteria and viruses took three and a half million years to get to where they are now. to say that there are new viruses is nonsense , they are mutations

 

nbody saying they just appeared its we just discovering them

[pigeonscout]

I cannot understand why some fanciers would not treat a sick bird. What reason would you have not to give a bird or a member of your own family an antibiotic to help them get better or save their life.

Are all you fanciers who would not give medication to a sick bird never taken medication yourself?

Do you  think that Olympic gold medal winners have never taken antibiotics or supplemented their diet with vitamins and minerals?  

Where does it say that a 5 to 10 day course of  antibiotics to cure an illness damages the immune system long term?

[Guest stb-]

I cannot understand why some fanciers would not treat a sick bird. What reason would you have not to give a bird or a member of your own family an antibiotic to help them get better or save their life.

Are all you fanciers who would not give medication to a sick bird never taken medication yourself?

Do you  think that Olympic gold medal winners have never taken antibiotics or supplemented their diet with vitamins and minerals?  

Where does it say that a 5 to 10 day course of  antibiotics to cure an illness damages the immune system long term?

 

I can understand what your saying Pigeon scout,  but years ago the average fancier

 

would have given some sulphur or epson salt to there birds as all the meds were not available like they are now .

 

Going back to times before all and sundry were put into birds , teams were smaller  losses were minimale and not many birds got sick .  Maybe birds are  putting up better performances nowadays with more home on day from some 550 ml races but it seems to be at a price.

 

Didnt seem much sallmonella pmv back then