Throat Theory

[JohnQuinn]

Being new to the sport do you buy only birds with the theory and do you dispose of the ones that dont come up to scratch.I spoke to the guy who rants on about 2% and all his dont even score 2.

 

 

I never said i looked at ma doos throats, cos i don't, but i seen a video/cd some time ago and Frank Tasker said to do it at that time of year, i do know what to look for but it never occurs to me to look at them. I buy a doo that suits my hand and will fit into my own team, i never check the throat though

 

By the way, your no new to this sport!!

[Guest IB]

Hi IB, what you are talking about is a totally different part of the throat and has very little to do with the curtins.

The curtins are located right down the pigeons throat here is what I'm talking about m8.

 

 

Cheers,

 

Brian

 

Thanks Brian. Although I know some don't like using the correct name (or the commonly known name) their use helps everyone know exactly what folks mean.

 

A diagram is even better at making things crystal clear. Some call the fringes of the choana 'curtains' and I thought it was the 'fringes' you were talking about.

 

The curtains at the back of the throat also have a special function, but this time the beak is gaping open when they are working full pelt, and we've all seen the bird do this. IMO as long as they do the job they're supposed to do, shape matters not.

[Guest Brian.Duffy]

Thanks Brian. Although I know some don't like using the correct name (or the commonly known name) their use helps everyone know exactly what folks mean.

 

A diagram is even better at making things crystal clear. Some call the fringes of the choana 'curtains' and I thought it was the 'fringes' you were talking about.

 

The curtains at the back of the throat also have a special function, but this time the beak is gaping open when they are working full pelt, and we've all seen the bird do this. IMO as long as they do the job they're supposed to do, shape matters not.

 

Hi IB, its the line in between the curtains that matters not the shape. If the line is crucket or bent or has a dent or hole in it then its for sure a bad bird. I've seen this with my own birds for example I had this blue cock that was a cracking pigeon. He handled and looked a dream but he never bred anything good. I wanted to get rid of him but my younger brother loved this pigeon and he wanted to keep it. After finding out about the throat theory I went to make a grade on him, when I opend his beak I was gob smaked the line was literally bent in half. He had the worst throat I had ever seen so I found a nice place for him HEAVIN. When I seen this it opened my eyes and I thought there is definitely something in this theory atb.

 

Brian

[Wiley]

As I stated in an earlier post, the throat theory is as stated, a theory. Not a fact. Before I take something like that seriously I would want proper studies done by people who have been trained in the skills needed to conduct such an exercise. Years ago people were convinced that mares would produce good looking foals if the stallion they saw at the moment of conception was good looking. They would lead a good looking stallion in front of the mare as she was being served by a bigger stallion. They thought they would end up with good looking big foals.

Aberdeen Angus cattle used to produce the odd calf that was brown or white in patches. The solution was to have the cows served in a yard that was all black. There are countless theories that have come and gone, written off as nonsense after a period of people accepting them as fact. The work of Mendal and Darwin was finally accepted because, after scientific studies properly carried out by skilled researchers, the results of those studies stood up to scrutiny and were accepted as scientifically correct.

Horses were regularly beaten up and brutilised to break them. Then came the new idea that as prey animals they could be taught to trust a human through Monty Roberts's technique of "Horse Whispering", another set of so called theories bit the dust.

How about the rusty nails in pigeon's drinking water to give them iron. Then there was the use of the match sulfur to get rid of canker. Or perhaps the use of a live woodlouse to clear the crop.

There are thousands of examples of how so called theories have been proven to be just imagination and as time moves on there will be plenty more. I bet the throat theory will figure amongst them at some point.

 

 

Owen there was a proper university study on the throat, when i get my video out i will quote which professor it was, and at what university, im sure it was somewhere near montana

[Guest mick bowler]

Anyone got any pics of a good one, a medium one and a bad one?

Edited October 14, 2010 by mick bowler

[Guest IB]

Hi IB, its the line in between the curtains that matters not the shape. If the line is crucket or bent or has a dent or hole in it then its for sure a bad bird. I've seen this with my own birds for example I had this blue cock that was a cracking pigeon. He handled and looked a dream but he never bred anything good. I wanted to get rid of him but my younger brother loved this pigeon and he wanted to keep it. After finding out about the throat theory I went to make a grade on him, when I opend his beak I was gob smaked the line was literally bent in half. He had the worst throat I had ever seen so I found a nice place for him HEAVIN. When I seen this it opened my eyes and I thought there is definitely something in this theory atb.

 

Brian

 

I think the condition you describe might be down to damage caused by a previous infection / disease?

[Guest Brian.Duffy]

I think the condition you describe might be down to damage caused by a previous infection / disease?

 

Hi IB,

 

This bird was a gift from a friend, I got him as a youngster. When I got him he was in perfect health and he never had a days sickness. He was rubbish because he had a really poor throat because he inherited that bad gene from his parents. A bad bird wont breed a good one I'm sure you will agree. What ticks me off about some fanciers is they say straight from the start that its all a load off old rubbish without actually doing any study off there own. Just because some fanciers dont understand it, it doesnt meen it doesnt work. Have you ever graded your own birds or are you set against any theory? I would like you to look at your best bird and then look at your worst, you may be very surprised. But only make the grade after they are through the moult and are under no stress atb.

 

Brian

[Guest IB]

Brian, in reply to your last post (57) I’d like to summarise the points from this thread that I used to form my opinion (below) on throat theory.

 

I first came into this thread after fly_caster (post 4) explained the basis of throat theory : if the throat is not good, that the air flow to the lungs and air sacks is disrupted, and therefore the ability of the bird to breathe at a rate which is conducive to top-level flying and racing. Only curtain & choana are marked, minimum score of 9 for a racer, 8 for a stock bird. My question was ‘how can anyone say what those structures should look like when the bird breathes with its beak closed when flying?’

 

Wiley (7) & Brian (25) said it was the only theory they believed in. Others like Bakes (22) said they’d like to know more about it, others dismissed it, and Bakes also said he had been told by others ‘it was rubbish, the basket is main part of the sport’.

 

I asked the same question again (31) and also asked if stress could maybe affect the bird, and the reading? Wiley agreed (32) stress could cause a false reading.

 

Wiley (36) Said glottis has nothing to do with throat theory & choana plays only a small part. Medication could also influence the rating, i.e make it better.

 

Brian (37) Agreed with that.

 

John Quinn (46) & others – rating takes place after moult, limited to once per year?

 

Brian (57) in response to my suggestion that condition of the curtain he’d viewed could be due to earlier illness, inferred it had been inherited. Suggested some fanciers say straight from the start that its all a load of old rubbish without actually doing any study of there own : just because some fanciers dont understand it, it doesnt meen it doesnt work. I was asked had I ever graded my own birds, or was I just set against any theory?

 

My Opinion.

Frank Harper’s booklet ‘Respiratory Problems in Pigeons Explained’ was one of the many things I read before I even got my first pigeon in late 2001. He

described the Respiratory System of the Normal Pigeon, and on page 7 he says ‘the fancier needs a rough understanding of these normal structures, since they have a direct bearing on some of the things that can go wrong.’ And this advice isn’t aimed at Vets or Biology Students. If you are going to say, what ‘a’ should be like … then at least know what ‘a’ does.

 

Throat theory states ‘if the throat is not good, that the air flow to the lungs and air sacks is disrupted, and therefore the ability of the bird to breathe at a rate which is conducive to top-level flying and racing’. Only curtain & choana are marked.

 

Wiley advised (36) Glottis has nothing to do with throat theory & choana plays only a small part. Brian (37) agreed with that. Yet according to my understanding of the respiratory system, Glottis & Choana are essential parts, and together help ensure ‘the ability of the bird to breathe at a rate which is conducive to top-level flying and racing’. So how can anyone discount / downplay either? Brian (57) spoke highly of the curtain, dismissed the effects of previous illness inferring inferior throat conditions were hereditary, yet had previously agreed with Wiley that stress and medication could affect the throat, and therefore the rating. I was particularly concerned that Wiley used medication to improve his birds’ rating, and Brian had culled a pigeon simply because the curtain did not conform to his view, formed on a theory he’d only just newly heard about. Considering the curtain has nothing to do with the normal air flow to the lungs and air sacks, that action was OTT, and blindly medicating pigeons to improve any result is also OTT, and pure self-deception.

 

Lastly, (seemingly) the only time the throat is rated is after the moult (John Quinn & others). Writers in pigeon press suggest selection should take place before the moult, as after it with a new suit ‘previously ‘poor’ pigeons can turn into budding Champions’. If Selection takes place on that one reading & rating, it also appears unfair to the pigeon as fanciers usually set some form of performance test for each pigeon, over a number of races or seasons, and allow the bird 1 mistake in that period.

 

Yes I grade my own pigeons starting with the youngster in the nest, and it basically has 3 years ‘development’ and ‘basket testing’ before being graded as a future member of the team, when it has to fly 500 miles in SNFC. That’s the acid test, and a fair one, physical stuff or theories don’t come into it because if the bird can do that successfully, it has everything it needs.

[Guest Brian.Duffy]

Hi IB,

 

What can happen to the curtins in the throat when the beak is closed??? nothing if you ask me. If the line is straight when the beak is open then chances are its straight when its closed. And the same can be said for a bent line, if the line is bent when the beak is open its abviously going to be bent when its closed. I cant see how an open or closed beak is going to change the line in the throat. As for medicating birds I hate it and I use very little and only threat if I have a problem. I do threat for parathypoid and canker before breeding, I dont have the luxury of a vet and sending of samples are not always accurate so I take no chances. I agreed with Wiley because if your birds have a slight respiratory problem (naked to the human eye) then of course your not going to get a proper reading and you have to medicate if you have a problem. With regards to grading your birds, if thats what works for you then continue to do so there is nothing wrong with it. What I will say is it will take you 3 years to know your birds true worth whereas I know in 1 and I will get to where I want quicker jmo atb.

 

Brian

[Guest IB]

Brian, the curtain acts as a fan that helps the bird cool down quickly when it is overheated - what we know as 'panting'. My understanding is the muscles in the 'throat' vibrate to greatly increase the rate of airflow going into and out of the lungs and airsacs. There is no air exchange in the air sacs, but there is heat exchange and a fast circulation of cold air - through the open beak - quickly cools the body. These vibrations (and air flow?) cause rapid movement in the curtain. Panting in any of my pigeons is over in seconds.

 

In defence of throat theory, IMO it was developed years ago, maybes pre-1960, as a fancier's check on canker damage in the throat, especially to the curtain, as the back of the throat is the danger zone. Again, I am going on memory but many articles appeared in pigeon press then on damage canker could cause, in some cases the curtain was almost eaten away. That was why I said your own bird may have suffered a previous illness. But modern writers stress the fact that what we see was caused by past illness, and provided throat is otherwise healthy, should be discounted when checking the bird over..

[David_vet]

Not sure about the "curtain" at the back of the throat acting as a fan. I believed the fringe on the back and possibly the curtain itself to be important in ensuring that food goes the correct way.

 

The panting in very hot birds can continue on as the "Gular flutter". In this instance, air is taken into the oesophagus (throat) which has a very good blood supply. this allows heat to be transferred directly from the body to the air. This is a trick utilised by pigeons and doves as well as other birds such as quail and pelicans. this enables the bird to lose heat without upsetting respiration.

 

However, as a result of these posts I had a close look at the cleft whilst checking birds for canker. If you alter the pressure with which you hold the upper beak you can actually alter the gap in the cleft.

 

So like all things, provided you do it the same way every time then it may have some meaning. I would suspect that other factors would also be taken into account knowingly or otherwise which together with the appearance of the cleft is indicative of a birds form.

 

David

[Guest JonesyBhoy]

lol.. throat theory.. what a lot of ..