Throat Theory

[David_vet]

A young fancier, years ago, whils explaining eyesign to a vet said he used to examine the vent. If he could see sundhine .... , whatever works for you go with it. If you do not know your birds then I do not know who will. David

PS I like the feet theory ! will use that in a lecture to students - thanks

[ray]

geoff kirkland was a top flier before he knew about the throat theory lets face it as long as people go out and buy these dvds they'll keep coming up with other theories,but also these blokes will not tell you there secrets there not going to tell you how to beat them do you tell members in your club how and what you feed of course you don't. and nor will they, unless you know better

[Guest Brian.Duffy]

geoff kirkland was a top flier before he knew about the throat theory lets face it as long as people go out and buy these dvds they'll keep coming up with other theories,but also these blokes will not tell you there secrets there not going to tell you how to beat them do you tell members in your club how and what you feed of course you don't. and nor will they, unless you know better

 

Hi Ray, I can honestly say that I do tell anyone who asks me what I feed and how I motivate my birds, and I have told lads who I fly against every week. At the end of the day you can tell some fanciers everything there is to know about pigeons and they would still do the opposite. All the fanciers I mentioned in my last post have not made any money of secrets of champions witch is where the throat theory was discussed. I cant see them leading us down the wrong path for nothing. I have seen for myself with my own birds that the throat theory does have alot going for it so thats good enough for me. Have you every looked down your own birds throats just curious? atb.

 

Brian

[gulkie]

I visited Geoff Kirkland in the eighties and he took me through his

whole system including all his theories and one of them was the throat

witch he went into in great detail and that he believed in it . a truer

gentleman I have never met in our sport, and a great pigeon man.

[Guest youngzimmy]

100 YOUNGBIRDS AND NOVO 10 I DIDNT KNOW I HAD TO INFORM YOU IF OR WHEN I INTEND TO RACE THEM I HAVE AS GOOD PIGEONS AS EVER I WILL NEED TO COMPETE AGAINST YOU NOVO 10

[Guest IB]

Hi Ray, I can honestly say that I do tell anyone who asks me what I feed and how I motivate my birds, and I have told lads who I fly against every week. At the end of the day you can tell some fanciers everything there is to know about pigeons and they would still do the opposite. All the fanciers I mentioned in my last post have not made any money of secrets of champions witch is where the throat theory was discussed. I cant see them leading us down the wrong path for nothing. I have seen for myself with my own birds that the throat theory does have alot going for it so thats good enough for me. Have you every looked down your own birds throats just curious? atb.

 

Brian

 

The point I made earlier Brian, was that the bird 'normally breaths through a closed beak' not an open one. When the beak is closed, certain bits match up to form an airtight seal between the slit in the roof of the mouth (choana) and the entrance to the windpipe (glottis) so that 'perfect 10 throat shape' will surely change when this happens.

 

So how can anyone say the parts mentioned should be a certain shape, let alone rate them, when they have looked at them with the beak open? Remember too the bird is stressed by & during this examination, so that may also have some affect on what is happening inside the beak, for example entrance to windpipe becomes more dilated & changes shape / breathing becomes more rapid.

[Wiley]

The point I made earlier Brian, was that the bird 'normally breaths through a closed beak' not an open one. When the beak is closed, certain bits match up to form an airtight seal between the slit in the roof of the mouth (choana) and the entrance to the windpipe (glottis) so that 'perfect 10 throat shape' will surely change when this happens.

 

So how can anyone say the parts mentioned should be a certain shape, let alone rate them, when they have looked at them with the beak open? Remember too the bird is stressed by & during this examination, so that may also have some affect on what is happening inside the beak, for example entrance to windpipe becomes more dilated & changes shape / breathing becomes more rapid.

 

 

IB, regarding the throat theory, you do not look at a bird throat straight away, you need to wait for it to become relaxed in your hand, as you would be getting a false reading

[Guest Brian.Duffy]

The point I made earlier Brian, was that the bird 'normally breaths through a closed beak' not an open one. When the beak is closed, certain bits match up to form an airtight seal between the slit in the roof of the mouth (choana) and the entrance to the windpipe (glottis) so that 'perfect 10 throat shape' will surely change when this happens.

 

So how can anyone say the parts mentioned should be a certain shape, let alone rate them, when they have looked at them with the beak open? Remember too the bird is stressed by & during this examination, so that may also have some affect on what is happening inside the beak, for example entrance to windpipe becomes more dilated & changes shape / breathing becomes more rapid.

 

Hi IB, are you talking about the cleft in the roof of the mouth? atb.

 

Brian

[Guest IB]

IB, regarding the throat theory, you do not look at a bird throat straight away, you need to wait for it to become relaxed in your hand, as you would be getting a false reading

 

Take your point Wiley, but you've missed mine. The correct shape is when the beak is closed and everything properly lined-up. Nobody except maybe an anatomy lab can know that.

[Guest Brian.Duffy]

Hi IB, are you talking about the cleft in the roof of the mouth? atb.

 

Brian

 

bump

[Wiley]

Take your point Wiley, but you've missed mine. The correct shape is when the beak is closed and everything properly lined-up. Nobody except maybe an anatomy lab can know that.

 

i should also mention that the glottis has nothing to do with the throat theory at all, and the choana only plays a small part, what you are actually looking at should be the curtain and the choana only and from there making your gradings. The reason i say the choana only plays a small part as many things can affect its opening. Take this for example Ronnie Bigwood (Another Throat specialist Nut) came to my loft and graded my best breeding hen, and he graded her at an 8 throat due to her choana slit wasnt open, I told Ronnie to come back in 2 weeks, I then treated my pigeons for ornithoses and mycroplasmosis, the result was on the next viewing her choana was open to the right amount resulting in her grading to go higher. The moral of the story is that for a true grading, your birds also need to be 100% healthy, and when viewing they must be stress free.

[Guest Brian.Duffy]

i should also mention that the glottis has nothing to do with the throat theory at all, and the choana only plays a small part, what you are actually looking at should be the curtain and the choana only and from there making your gradings. The reason i say the choana only plays a small part as many things can affect its opening. Take this for example Ronnie Bigwood (Another Throat specialist Nut) came to my loft and graded my best breeding hen, and he graded her at an 8 throat due to her choana slit wasnt open, I told Ronnie to come back in 2 weeks, I then treated my pigeons for ornithoses and mycroplasmosis, the result was on the next viewing her choana was open to the right amount resulting in her grading to go higher. The moral of the story is that for a true grading, your birds also need to be 100% healthy, and when viewing they must be stress free.

 

 

Spot on Wiley, I like to see the cleft wide open but the curtins are a totaly different thing atb.

 

Brian

[john@formula 1 lofts]

I have been looking at this theory for a while and i am not convinced either way, i can see the plus side of the theory. however i have handled many good birds even champions which do not conform. so the jury is still out for me. mind you i always wonder why you never hear of any theory's in other sports.

 

I have never heard of Fergie checking Rooney's toes or Martin Pipe looking at one of his horses throats or a Dog trainer checking out the dogs leg structure etc etc

 

John

[ray]

Hi Ray, I can honestly say that I do tell anyone who asks me what I feed and how I motivate my birds, and I have told lads who I fly against every week. At the end of the day you can tell some fanciers everything there is to know about pigeons and they would still do the opposite. All the fanciers I mentioned in my last post have not made any money of secrets of champions witch is where the throat theory was discussed. I cant see them leading us down the wrong path for nothing. I have seen for myself with my own birds that the throat theory does have alot going for it so thats good enough for me. Have you every looked down your own birds throats just curious? atb.

 

Brian

 

 

hi brian you must be one of the 0.1% who has done this i've been flying 5 years and i know blokes who cover there corn when they see you never mind tell you how and what to race and feed on good on you wish i was in your club flying widowhood next year that should be a laugh, as for the throat theory i'll look after there through the moult, cheers ray

[Guest mick bowler]

Yes some top fanciers using this theory, but how many bad ones too?

 

I assume you need to see a 9/10 and a 0/1 before you can grade them yourself, otherwise it has to be done over a long period or as just guess work!

 

Maybe the best theory in this modern day and age is the "beep" theory, those that make the first "beeps" on the ETS are the best!

[Guest IB]

Hi IB, are you talking about the cleft in the roof of the mouth? atb.

 

Brian

 

Sorry Brian, missed your (first) post.

 

Yes, when beak is closed this forms an air-tight seal with the glottis. So both parts are likely to look very different 'fitted together' and beak closed. And the air-tight seal is the really important part.

[Guest Owen]

"Throat theory", is just what it is. It is certainly not a "Throat Fact" is it? At least it gives some people the chance to talk like Biology Students to show us all how clever they are. I like these sort of theories to start by saying; once upon a time-------. Goddness help the poor pigeons in the Sales Pens. It is bad enough that people are squinting into their eyes, now the poor little things will have to endure the Throat Theoryists forcing their gobs open and gazing at their throats as well. Then of course we will have the inevitable discussion, "It this an 8 or a 10, Bert". "You take a look and see what you would give it". Of course Bert will have to ask Fred for his opinion, so the poor pigeon will probably end up with lock jaw or something similar.

[Guest Brian.Duffy]

Sorry Brian, missed your (first) post.

 

Yes, when beak is closed this forms an air-tight seal with the glottis. So both parts are likely to look very different 'fitted together' and beak closed. And the air-tight seal is the really important part.

 

Hi IB, what you are talking about is a totally different part of the throat and has very little to do with the curtins.

The curtins are located right down the pigeons throat here is what I'm talking about m8.

 

 

Cheers,

 

Brian

[Guest Brian.Duffy]

"Throat theory", is just what it is. It is certainly not a "Throat Fact" is it? At least it gives some people the chance to talk like Biology Students to show us all how clever they are. I like these sort of theories to start by saying; once upon a time-------. Goddness help the poor pigeons in the Sales Pens. It is bad enough that people are squinting into their eyes, now the poor little things will have to endure the Throat Theoryists forcing their gobs open and gazing at their throats as well. Then of course we will have the inevitable discussion, "It this an 8 or a 10, Bert". "You take a look and see what you would give it". Of course Bert will have to ask Fred for his opinion, so the poor pigeon will probably end up with lock jaw or something similar.

 

 

Hi Owen, grading your birds is a very simple prosess and is stress free to the birds if done correctly. Now if your birds are mad hatters then I agree it wouldnt be a good experiance for the bird but that would be the fanciers own fault that his birds are nuts atb.

 

Brian

[Guest mick bowler]

Sorry Brian, missed your (first) post.

 

Yes, when beak is closed this forms an air-tight seal with the glottis. So both parts are likely to look very different 'fitted together' and beak closed. And the air-tight seal is the really important part.

 

IB, i have read quite a few of your posts with interest, seems a lot of information, some IMO correct some way off the mark, but a lot of its seems to be stated as fact.

 

So can i ask a question and ask what are your achievements in the sport with all this knowledege?

Edited October 13, 2010 by mick bowler

[JohnQuinn]

If memory serves me correctly the only time of year the throat can be graded is after the moult and before pairing up.

The theory is that the bird would need to have a high score in throat grading if it was to become a champion breeder/racer. This i suppose is possible but because they have a good throat does not faze the Falcons and the pylons are indiscriminate. What would be interesting is if those fanciers who have the good fortune to have a top performing bird were to grade them in December and post their HONEST findings on a Theory thread. Then we could glean some facts straight from the doos Mouth so to speak.

[virgin of the sky]

If memory serves me correctly the only time of year the throat can be graded is after the moult and before pairing up.

The theory is that the bird would need to have a high score in throat grading if it was to become a champion breeder/racer. This i suppose is possible but because they have a good throat does not faze the Falcons and the pylons are indiscriminate. What would be interesting is if those fanciers who have the good fortune to have a top performing bird were to grade them in December and post their HONEST findings on a Theory thread. Then we could glean some facts straight from the doos Mouth so to speak.

Being new to the sport do you buy only birds with the theory and do you dispose of the ones that dont come up to scratch.I spoke to the guy who rants on about 2% and all his dont even score 2.

[virgin of the sky]

I think you will find the mark is out of 10

if you think its good why dont you buy only ones that score high and how are your results.

[Guest IB]

IB, i have read quite a few of your posts with interest, seems a lot of information, some IMO correct some way off the mark, but a lot of its seems to be stated as fact.

 

So can i ask a question and ask what are your achievements in the sport with all this knowledege?

 

The information I have given in this thread has appeared elsewhere e.g several times by different writers in the pigeon press; and Frank Harper's video also gives a diagram that shows the arrangement, that he uses to describe the air flow into and out of the bird's body. When I say that the open beak may not show the complete picture, that's fact too, because the picture is completed only when the bird closes its beak, so is hidden from the fancier's view..

 

By achievements I suppose you mean results with pigeons? Basically this is my 2nd year competing at SNFC channel level, and reckon I'm now on 2nd step of the ladder, in that I can now breed pigeons that both race, and breed pigeons to race the channel with SNFC. Not hitting my target every time tho: I did not fly full programme this year, I missed YB race (267 mile) due to various reasons which I will put right next year;

 

So in 6 races I did go to, I failed to time in 2: longest inland race (399 miles) which puzzled me, and longest channel, (667 miles) which was a smash, only 24 birds home in race time. (But she did get home). In 4 that I did get a time in, I had 2 birds in Open result in inland race (330 miles); 89th Open (570 miles) 94th Open (526 miles) - with a second bird in each of these 2 channel race timed but didn't make the result - and 3rd channel race (449 miles) timed but didn't make the result.

 

It's long distance pigeons I've got, they are not fast enough for club & fed racing, so I get the bum's rush there off Conlin, Jack & Co.

[Guest Owen]

As I stated in an earlier post, the throat theory is as stated, a theory. Not a fact. Before I take something like that seriously I would want proper studies done by people who have been trained in the skills needed to conduct such an exercise. Years ago people were convinced that mares would produce good looking foals if the stallion they saw at the moment of conception was good looking. They would lead a good looking stallion in front of the mare as she was being served by a bigger stallion. They thought they would end up with good looking big foals.

Aberdeen Angus cattle used to produce the odd calf that was brown or white in patches. The solution was to have the cows served in a yard that was all black. There are countless theories that have come and gone, written off as nonsense after a period of people accepting them as fact. The work of Mendal and Darwin was finally accepted because, after scientific studies properly carried out by skilled researchers, the results of those studies stood up to scrutiny and were accepted as scientifically correct.

Horses were regularly beaten up and brutilised to break them. Then came the new idea that as prey animals they could be taught to trust a human through Monty Roberts's technique of "Horse Whispering", another set of so called theories bit the dust.

How about the rusty nails in pigeon's drinking water to give them iron. Then there was the use of the match sulfur to get rid of canker. Or perhaps the use of a live woodlouse to clear the crop.

There are thousands of examples of how so called theories have been proven to be just imagination and as time moves on there will be plenty more. I bet the throat theory will figure amongst them at some point.