Recipe for Grizzles

[DinUtah]

Can anyone tell me how to make grizzles?  I was gifted a few white distance racers and the idea crossed my mind.  I know I may be sacrificing some racing ability just going for color but Im hoping for the best... Din

[Guest ben]

Hi Dinuah,

              If your white birds have bull eyes they probably carry pied/white gene,if normal eyes,good chance they could be griz/or carring double griz dose,.

              but then again they could carry both whiteand griz,as many do.

     You will not be sacrificing anything,as long as you use the basket to test them at the distances you compete in, then line bred the best racing cock you bred of the stock pair back to it`s mother,and /or the best racing hen back to its father,all according which racing system you tend to use.

    This way,you can purify your team,and have a line bred family,to continue into the 3rd generation,linebreeding grandsons/daughtersback to your original base.

    Obviously it will take 3 years to get to the long distance test,and if you find the birds do not come up to satisfaction,just clear out the lot,and start again with a Grizzle cock,(off a Topclass distance family),then bred with Blue Barred,or Mealy hen,from within the same family,and start again.

 

[Guest shadow]

If your whites come from a family of whites no matter which way you breed them it is doubtful if you will get grizzles . Buy a grizzle in from kirkpatrick family and you will be sure to get some grizzles.

 

quality not quantity

[mealybar]

Without being corrected (usually by Bruno ) as far as I know if a pigeon carries the grizzle gene, it has to be a grizzle itself. Grizzle is a colour modifier gene, and not a colour itself, but it is dominant.

 

http://www.angelfire.com/ga/huntleyloft/griz.html

 

You can get another type of grizzle - called 'undergrizzle' on that link - which doesnt require the parents to be grizzle themselves. But it is quite rare and doesnt resemble the usual white grizzle type - see photo bottom of the page (on the link).

[Guest]

Mealybar is right.  ;D

 

Bet that got you!  

 

Grizzle is a pattern, like chequer is a pattern. Both can obviously be any colour.

 

But as far as the genetics go, its not quite as straight forward. I agree you must start with a grizzle. A white won't tun into a grizzle, a grizzle might turn into a white as they tend to moult out lighter each year. But breeding grizzles isn't certain.

 

This year: cock first:

 

blue grizzle x mealy pied: Mealy pd, Blue Pd, Mealy, Blue Pd.

 

Red grizzle x blue chequer: Red grizzle (heavy black splashes)

 

DChq x blue grizzle: Dchq, D grizzle; Dchq, DChq Pd; D grizzle, BChq

 

Red Grizzle x BB: 2 x W Grizzle; 2 x near white (RG); B Grizzle, W Grizzle

 

Blue grizzle x BB: 2 x B Grizzle; 1 x BB (speckled head).

 

I have also a DChq Pd hen which has definite grizzling in her end primaries - she came off DChqC x BBH.

 

Also thought you could tell the youngsters sex, because I believed grizzle was sex-linkage too. Thought my grizzle hen would throw grizzle cocks: I've a D grizzle cock and  D grizzle hen from her.

Thought the BB (speckled head) off BGC X BBH would have been a stick-on cock, its a hen.    

 

Apart from that, breeding grizzles is very straightforward.  ;D

[THE FIFER]

I have the white birds and the problem i have been having for the past year or so is they are breeding whites with blue grizzle tails and flights,

[Ron]

I crossed a few of my whites with blue bars this year and I got mostly grizzled young ones, and a couple black and white ones. I don't really understand the genetics much (I have been doing some reading) just wanted to see what I would get. All the young from these crossings were lost, as were a lot of others this year, so I don't think they had a fair chance, I'm going to give it a try again, I would like to make a team of grizzles.

 

Ron

[Guest ben]

Remember grizzle or white/pied are not patterns.

Theses 2 modifiers just distort the light hitting the feather.

The bird in question will still be a ch,or bar ect ,but you cannot see it through the human eye.

 There are 3 know grizzle types

    Normal,what many fanciers term as white griz.

    Tiger Grizzle,which birds moult out whiter after the 1st moult.

    Undergrizzle,which you see many birds carring when you open the wing and look underneath the flights.

   a bird can carry 1dose of grizzle,in which case if it`s in the cock,he will throw the usual 2 patterns,But because 1 of the patterns has no grizzle in some young will be normal,even thou grizzle is dominant.

 If a cock carries 2 doses of grizzle,obviously he throws grizzle in both patterns to all HIS YOUNG.

What we must relise,is grizzle can be nearly total white,or just a tiny fleck on the head.

If you continue to interbreed grizzle factor,the birds will in the end bepractisally total whiteafter4-5 generations,much the same as white flighted slightly pied,,continued breeding into 4-5 generations willmake the modifier spread to neary total white.

  You can usually tell white/as opposide to white griz,because grizzle birds will have normal eyes,white/pieds bull eyes,but many pieds carry griz as well,so can be hard to tell,only trial mating will conform which modifier present.

    Hope this helps

 

[Glassfeather]

Single factor (Heterozygous) Grizzle Cock

 

 

Double factor (Homozygous) Grizzle hen

 

 

[DinUtah]

Wow  So much info.   Far more that i expected, especially the breeding plans.  Some more info.  I recieved 10 birds, late hatches, Most have orange/tan eyes a couple have top 2/3 eye orange and bottom 1/3 bull.  The orangist eyes are all white birds.  the mixed eyes have a black feather or 2 or edge of the tails blending from white to black,not unlike the double factor photo but to a lesser degree.  Thats where Im thinking there is some grizzle in there somewhere that i might bring out.  Maybe I can find a good winning bird that happens to be grizzle or a carrier or grizzle to get me on the right path or at least move it along a bit faster. Id like a good grizzle team thats competitive.   Keep the info comming.. thanks again

[Guest]

You can't tell looking at a bird whether it is single factor (heterozygous) or double factor (homozygous) grizzle. That comes from the breeding. Grizzle is usually dominant, but not always.

 

Simple genetics: Grizzle.

 

(1) Grizzle (g) x any other colour / pattern (a)

 

single factor means the bird has only one grizzle gene (ie only one of its parents was a grizzle)

 

gn x aa = ga, ag, na, an. = 2 ga, 2 na. Average 1:2 all single factor grizzles.

 

(2) Grizzle (G) x Grizzle (G)

 

double factor means the bird's parents were both grizzles

 

GG X GG = GG GG GG GG. 4 Grizzles. Can only breed Grizzles, all double factor.

 

 

[Glassfeather]

Without wishing to complicate this  :

 

Grizzle is inherited according to basic Mendelian principles. Grizzle is an autosomal modifier, inherited independently of the sex (Z & W) chromosomes, and independently of the pattern locus. This means that Grizzle can be inherited in combination with any of the basic patterns and any of the basic colours as well as recessive red(e) and recessive white (zwh). Grizzle has been tested against normal, wild type, (blue bar) and designated dominant status and the symbol (G). In combination with wild type, it is possible to determine wether a bird is hetero or homozygous by its appearance, but in the presence of other modifiers and other pattern alleles it is not always possible to determine a birds' hetero/homozygosity for the grizzle gene. A punnet square is useful to demonstrate this segregation. Each square represents 25% or the 1:4 ratio of a mating between grizzles. (G)=Grizzle and (+)=normal(blue bar). As you can see a pair of grizzles can produce all three phenotypes: normal, non-grizzle; heterozygous grizzle; and homozygous grizzle, in both sexes.

There are alleles at the Grizzle locus: slight Grizzle(GS), and tiger Grizzle (GT) also designated dominant status.

 

[Guest]

No, you haven't complicated anything, Glassfeather. What I have been putting up is Mendelian genetics, a very basic theory using only two characteristics, grizzle, and non-grizzle. Can't get a line drawing up, so no Punnet Square, just the characters.

 

The only part I feel that could confuse others is your last one, Grizzle x Grizzle, because what you describe is a pair of heterozygous grizzles, your symbols G and +, + being 'non-grizzle'. Again its difficult to demonstrate using a symbol like that, that each parent can only contribute one gene of a pair to each offspring. I'll use letters and Caps, my non-grizzle is the letter n.

 

Grizzle cock  G   N               X           Grizzle hen  g n  (Both: a grizzle parent)

 

Youngsters can only be: Gg Nn gN nG. = 3 GRIZZLES and 1 non grizzle. (Remember these are averages). The young grizzles are 1 x homozygous (ie carry two grizzle genes, likely to throw only grizzles) and 2 x heterozygous (only carry one grizzle gene)

 

Grizzle cock  G   G               X            Grizzle hen g g   (Both: both parents grizzles)

 

Youngsters can only be: Gg Gg gG gG = 4 grizzles, all homozygous.

 

 

Congratulations too on the Z & W sex genes. Mammalian sex genes are X & Y. Anybody know the non-technical reason for this difference? Great one for the pigeon moot "Which parent determines the sex of cock youngsters?" Clue: which human parent determines the sex of the boy, then reverse it for birds. Must be worth at least a pint!    

 

 

Er I think me head hurts after that.   ;D

 

 

 

[Glassfeather]

I see where you are at Bruno, I'm just being a bit pedantic about the nomenclature as I learned about pigeon genetics using these symbols. Why is it that females are heterogametic in birds and reptiles?

[Guest]

My genetics knowledge originates from Higher Biology at school, studying old Gregor Mendel's breeding experiments with smooth-skin and wrinkled-skin peas, the original 'two characteristics' he studied. Good example of the basic principle: although you might in theory have both genes present in both parents, each parent can only contribute one of its genes to the child, on an either (wrinkled) or (smooth) basis.

 

The subject we were takling about was Grizzles, so the genes are either (Grizzle) or (non-grizzle) for heterozygous birds, or (Grizzle) or  (Grizzle) for homozygotes.

 

Stumped at your question on homo/heterogametacy, which, is which parent carries which sex chromosomes. New word maybe, but its just a string of genes - hundreds of them. Pigeon has 40 pairs of chromosomes - thousands of genes - which reduce to 20 pairs in each sex cell (sperm or ovum). When sperm20 & ovum 20 come together they make 40 again in each youngster.

 

The reduction bit from 40 to 20 pairs of chromosomes is purely a random process - nobody has any control over which genes go with which chromosomes into which sperm / ovum. Basically random chance - a bloody lottery.

 

 

Don't know why its opposite case mammals & birds, just that it is so. Thought it hilarious at the time, given the heavy 'importance' many fanciers place on the cock bird, essentially putting him on a pedestal. Er, it's his hen who decides at the end of the day whether their youngsters are cocks.  8)  

 

 

In humans its :

man XY     woman XX       Man decides male youngsters.

In birds its: 

cock ZZ     hen WZ       Hen decides male youngsters.

 

 

Now my head really hurts.    

 

[Guest ben]

bruno,

        some human males can be xyy,nothing is clearcut in nature,for sure,if a pair of birds have no grizzle,a mutated gene can give their youngsters grizzle,rare but it can happen,

[jimmy white]

just browzing through the posts of grizzles, and managed to get myself lost a bit ,but ill go through it more times, all i know , theres dominent and recesive, and a wee bit more.  but what i was pondering about was that i had an old meally [but an unusual dirty colour,for a meally]   paired with a cheq hen ,this pair produced quite a few chocolates, before the ybs first moult they were pure chocolate coloured, then after their moult, were white splashed, each year they moulted they became whiter, these birds never done much but did breed decent birds, the g sire dirty meally was a good one, has anyone had this experience?

[Guest]

Ben, what you are describing isn't a mutation, it's an additional chromosome which leads to Downes' Syndrome in Humans.  

 

It is very difficult to talk about such a subject without giving unintentional offence to others. Sufficient to say 'the reduction' process goes adrift and an extra chromosome ends up in one sex cell, instead of the usual even number. In addition to learning difficulties, the child has a number of other physical problems of varying severity. But they aren't called 'the child with something extra' for nothing, they are amongst the most loving (and most loved) humans on the planet.  

[Guest]

The best example of a mutant gene in pigeons is the gene (s) which produces the colour red. Don't know what the original gene was that mutated, but I suspect it came off the 'black' side.

 

Not so good at recognising colours in birds. Had a youngster this year which I called bronze chequer because that was the colour he looked. All his feathers had a reddish tinge / fringe to them on a darker background. Showed him to clubmates who thought it was bronze too. I've seen it a few times before, and I now associate it with 'immature black'.

 

Bird has moulted out now and he is a 'coal black' Dark Chequer.

[Glassfeather]

Hi Jimmy,

 

What you describe here is a process called 'acromatosis' and it occurs regularly in recessive red pigeons. The birds you describe as chocolate are actually recessive red so both the 'dirty' mealy cock and the cheq hen you paired him to each carried a recessive red gene. There is a fancy breed called Vienna Whiteside which are self red in their juvenile plumage then moult out with white wing-shields. Obviously a lot of selection went on in the development of this breed but it is the same process and it also occurs in 'whiteside' English Long-Face Tumblers. The 'dirty colour' of the mealy results from a modifier which is actually called 'dirty', with the symbol V, a dominant autosomal (not sex-linked)

 

Whiteside Long Face English Muffed Tumbler:

[jimmy white]

the old meally i descibed was down from  hammond and whiticker,,grooter lines, and at the time did notice they produced some unusual colours , silvers etc.one of the queerest i bred was a blue cheq,with one red cheq wing, and this bird flew well

[Guest beautyhomer]

Jimmy,

Your blue and red cheq is a true mosaic,like two different pigeons stuck together.

These are genetic flukes and cannot be selectively bred for.Possibly two sperm fertilizing the same egg.

[Guest]

Agree with Beautyhomer, that your bird is a mosiac, Jimmy. Funny how terminology changes over time: the 60's mosiac is an opal today.

 

On the reason behind 'half-and-half' I haven't ever read or been given an explanation for it. But two sperm and one ovum I believe can be safely discounted. Two reasons:

(1) When one sperm penetrates the ovum wall, it triggers a chemical release by the ovum which makes the ovum wall inpenetratable for further sperm. (2) The pigeon chromosome count = 40. Sperm20 + Ovum20 = 40; A further sperm20 would be 60, the fertilised ovum would be unlikely to develop even to the next stage (i.e. within hours of being fertilised the cell dividing and becoming two).

 

Must have been a bother recognising the bird, Jimmy. Two different pigeons, depending upon what side you were looking at. I know I had something similar with a Blue white flight, single white flight, one wing only. Had to take 'a double take' at the 'Blue Bar' side, to be sure of which bird I was looking at.  

 

[jimmy white]

i notice rose has a photo in the logans post, of a pigeon not unlike the one i was on about,the only differance was that the one i had wasnt pied.

intresting posts above

[Guest]

my brothers white pigeons are always lying there poo and they look really dirty will they clean themselves and i am a new user