censor

[symbro]

so what else can we not talk about?

 

it seems talking about videos about the sport is out too?

[Webmaster]

so what else can we not talk about?

 

it seems talking about videos about the sport is out too?

 

I deleted a certain topic due to it not being approriate for our friendly pigeon forum. I was requested by the author of another topic to delete that topic.

 

[symbro]

oh my gosh... i am sooooo embarrassed...

the thread i was talking about is right here...

 

http://www.pigeons.biz/forums/showthread.php?t=12871

 

 

please forgive me!!!!

[Guest]

Webmaster, I know that there is a difference between straight censorship, and a moderator policing matters which are likely to offend forum members. I answered 'The deleted thread' and one young member was so upset that we had quite a lengthy PM correspondance on it.

 

But the bit I find difficult to understand about this particular deletion is that Symbro posted an item on a sickly pigeon and 2 out of 3 respondants advised that the bird be culled. Given that advice, for anyone who was faced with doing it , the next logical question must be the most humane way of doing it.

 

Perhaps in this instance the 'new thread' would have been better transferred to the original (or another similar one) and forum members would have been left in no doubt about the humane nature of the question.

 

 

[Guest slugmonkey]

I think most on here display a level of maturity and common sense and thats not the problem, if everyone on here were here strictly for the reason of education and camaradrie then we would have no problems the unfortunate fact is that we are constantly being scrutinized and at some point our sharing of information will in all likelyhood be taken out of context and used against us to prove the case of some P.E.T.A. member somewhere I wish things were diffrent but the sad fact is most of these people have no idea of how things are only the view they wish to see what is cruelty watching an animal die a long suffering disease or humanely culling it I have questioned many posts on here as to who originally posted them and what there motives were and I think we must ask ourselves who is watching and more Importantly how do we look are we a group of concerned fanciers or a gang of hooligans using some poor defenseless creature for our own amusment and gains? what one considers a reasonable act another considers an atrocity and the saddest part of this is the one committing the so called act is usally defenseless as an individual against a well funded, organized, institution claiming to act on behalf of the animals when in reality they are usally a bunch of hypocritic socialists thinly disguised as activists who have nothing better to do than to try to controll the actions of others instead of concerning themselves with there own affairs don't get me wrong I think that anyone who intentionally harms animals for no apparent reason deserves to be punished but you have to admit on occasion on here there have been some things said about a couple of subjects ( which I wont mention and I am an offender also so this is not to be seen as a witch hunt ) that have not portrayed us in a good light, so just remember what you put on here isn't always viewed by who you think are the ones looking at it if its questionable consider the repercussions of your posts if you have a question that is of a delicate nature please PM members who you trust or know instead of airing our dirty laundry for all to see, you have to admit that a newbies first post asking about culling or the treatment of hawks or commies sometimes begs the question who is this person really???

[symbro]

http://www.pigeonbasics.com/forum/blah/v-post/b-gen/m-/a-/q-/post-1/n-/

 

just incase you were wondering who i am... you can use the above link.  if the above post had anything to do with me, i would like an apology.  

 

when i started this thread i thought that another thread had been deleted.  but i was wrong and said sorry.  i even accepted the reasons for people not wanting to talk about how to cull.  

 

Not that people would read it but maybe there should be a sticky on topics that arent accepted well on this forum.  i strongly suggest that when you delete someones thread you PM them to tell them why and that it even happened.

 

Bruno,

  i apperciate everyones opinions and time they spent answering my questions.  i agree it might have been better to post "how" under my original post on that poor bird.  i however was hoping to get a better response by placing it in a different catigory.

 

i wish there was a spell check... shesh i spell like a mule

[Guest slugmonkey]

Symbro this was NOT directed at you in any form as I clearly stated I was not pointing the finger at ANY one person I was merely stating that we should ALL be careful as things taken out of context can sometimes be misconstrued somethings are better left unsaid or at least not posted for prying eyes to see !!!!

[Guest slugmonkey]

P.S. youre spelling is fine but that link did'nt work   LOL  

[Guest]

.... the unfortunate fact is that we are constantly being scrutinized and at some point our sharing of information will in all likelyhood be taken out of context and used against us to prove the case of some P.E.T.A. member somewhere ... I think we must ask ourselves who is watching ... one is usually defenseless as an individual against a well funded, organized, institution .... try(ing) to controll the actions of others ....

 

...if you have a question that is of a delicate nature please PM members who you trust or know instead of airing our dirty laundry for all to see, you have to admit that a newbies first post asking about culling or the treatment of hawks or commies sometimes begs the question who is this person really???

 

I have edited your first post down, Slugmonkey, to show that you are advocating handing over control to those that you seek to confound. As you point out, no matter what you say will be taken out of context so what's the point of stifling open debate and going underground?  

 

There is more than a hint of paranoia there too... who's watching?  who's asking? Isn't it more likely that it is new starts who will ask the most awkward of questions and the answers they get may uncover the questionable norms that some take for granted...

 

What you are advocating is true censorship... and self-defeatism.

 

 

 

 

[Guest slugmonkey]

I am not seeking to confound anyone, I am advocating, self policing there is a movement afoot to register lofts in the U.S. and open them to F.D.A. inspection who do you think is pushing this, it sure isn"t the fanciers with all the talk of exotic diseases and animal cruelty do you not think our sport is constantly being scrutinized no I am not paranoid just watchful

 

Those who do not study history are bound to repeat it or I guess a better statement is what happened to pigeons in Europe in world war 2 and if you don't think it could happen again you are sadly mistaken I am against registration of Guns, Gardens, and pigeon lofts really who's bussiness is it if I want to keep a few birds for enjoyment or racing this is the underlying issue here

 

 

I am just asking that that we don't hand over the bullets to load the gun thats pointed at us

[Guest slugmonkey]

P.S. I take it that you have never seen how peta goes about thier bussiness they usally go after individuals instead of orginisations or associations as individuals are a lot easier to steamroll !!!

[Guest]

Take your point, Slugmonkey.  

 

Activists over here target individuals, their property, their business, their workforce,  and their dead.

 

One family came out of business after relative's body removed from grave ...  

 

Only 'go underground' strategy I'd adopt for this mob is to bury them, publicly.  >

 

 

[Guest]

Bruno Slug et al

 

I have to agree with what slug posted 110%

 

The concept of registering our lofts was brought about  3 years ago. The American Racing Pigeon Union are working through their lobbyist in DC to get racing pigeons excluded from the Animal Welfare Act and put them in the same category as Greyhounds and Race Horses, which in my estimation was an excellent concept. If Racing Pigeons were taken out of the Animal Welfare act we would have had to prove that we are a self policing organisation.  

 

Now I am a little more than worried, if and when the exclusion comes into being, our records etc will become a matter of public record with the USDA. I have spoken to Karen Clifton on this matter and she assures us that our records will not be open for public scrutany.  Having said that, some of the shipping problems we are having in the States are being caused by people employed by The Unitd states Postal System at the Express Mail airport Booking offices with Peta leanings.  I know of three occasions personally when fiends of mine have called to book flights for birds and have been refused and given a lecture on how cruel they were keeping racing pigeons.  PETA have been blanket mailing CEO'S of The Airline Companies specifically requesting that they do not carry Racing Pigeons and in a lot of cases this has worked.  It is getting extremely difficult now to ship birds in the United states.  Some airlines will not carry them and others will carry them only on a direct flight and will not transfer them to another plane to complete their journey.  To ship birds in many cases we have to ship them out on a direct flight to a friend in Denver which is a big airline hub, he collects them from the airport and relabells the boxes to their final destination, this costs us double the postage.

 

what guarantee to we have that the USDA do not employ PETA ratbags who will use the loft registration information against us.

 

This is just my personal opinion, and I guess our loft will be registered as Steve is in agreement with registration.

 

[Guest]

Slug & Hyancinth: many points raised which puzzle me.

 

(1) USDA is the equivalent of our DEFRA and MAFF, both Government bodies. Any personal information held by government departments is (normally) held for a specific purpose and (normally) cannot be disclosed to others...

 

(2) Employees are bound by employment contract to their company who are bound by service contract to their customers. If the company says it carries racing pigeons, then it is offering 'to treat' (enter into a contract to carry pigeons). If the employee causes hassle / refuses to accept the consignment ... report the employee to the company. If the companies are screwing pigeon people, then set up a pigeon carrier yourselves.

 

(3) Cannot understand why you would wish pigeons exempt from Animal Welfare Act. If you are complying with that legislation, then you are meeting all the birds welfare needs and at a stroke you remove any grounds for complaint from any animal rights activists.

 

(4) Don't follow the WW2 pigeons bit, Slug. A better example from WW2 might have been the bullying and suppression of people's rights, and the creation of a climate of fear which silenced all protest / counter opinions .... much the same as you describe happening just now.

[Guest slugmonkey]

The problem with the law is interpertation we have a law on the books here in our city that no individual may have more than 3 dogs 2 horses 4 cats and I belive its 6 birds this law although well meaning ( designed to keep pit bull fighting and puppy mills shut down along with the cock fighters ) if you wind up with a bad neighbor who dosent like you or pigeons BY LAW they have the right to shut you down this would mean you either quit the sport or enter into a long legenthy battle to keep your birds I think the spirit of this law is good the only problem is the interpertation of it I am sure that at some point one of or all the registered guys are going to have to deal with it what I think you fail to realize is that PETA thinks

YOU ARE THE BAD GUY

[Guest]

Bruno I would answer your points as below

 

(1)  Yes The USDA is a government body and our information should be secure. BUT as I mentioned earlier we don't know that PETA haven't got sympathisers within the USDA who would pass the information on to activistS

 

(2)  The refusal by PETA nurds employed by the Post Office to accept our birds for shipping has been reported to The Postmaster General and State Senators.  I hope the persons concerned loose their jobs, but I very much doubt it.

 

(3)  What we really want is for our birds to be excluded from the Animal Welfare act.  As the Law stands now, anyone with a grudge can complain and we could have our birds taken away from us by the "Animal Cops" who as Slug mentioned can interpret the Law in any way they deem fit.  Having the birds excluded would mean that like horse and dog racing people we can prove to the USDA that we are self policing and would not be subject to the Animal Welfare Act.

 

I feel you folks in the UK do not take on board what we are up against here in the States, Pigeon flying has been an accepted Sport in the Uk since Adam was a Lad, not so here.  Woody Alan was our worst enemy when he describled pigeons as Flying Rats, the name has stuck.  american folks are paranoid about any form of germs and sickness you just have to look at the brainwashing by the drug and cleaning product companies on TV to see where they get this from.

 

I was speaking with a flyer on the East Coast a few nights ago, he reckoned we wouldn't be flying pigeons in 10 years in the States, with all the media hype about avian influenza, Peta and the germ paranoia folks so much noise will be made to the powers that be we will have to throw in the towel and take up crocheting

[Guest]

Thanks for the clarification, Slug & Hyacinth.

 

I can only repeat our own recent experience here (in 2005) when an animal rights group attacked one transporter and liberated two baskets of birds after sunset and in weather conditions that prevented their release. They then involved the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (RSPCA) and inferred the remaining pigeons were being mistreated. RSPCA attended and inspected the birds and found nothing wrong with them. Had the pigeon organisation concerned publicly gone after these people and prosecuted them, their endangering the birds' welfare by liberating them after dark and in inclement weather being made public would have finished them off.... they wouldn't have dared go near pigeons again... instead 'our' inaction has shown that we are afraid of them, and gives them an open invitation to do it again... to other organisations birds... in 2006 and beyond.

 

While the animal rights activists may see themselves as the good guys, their tactics over here have alienated the majority of people and they are seen for what they really are: thugs; the government has also included their behaviours in anti-terrorist legislation. You don't say how the public sees them over there... you may be conferring a 'respectibility' on them which they don't actually have... tagging 'terrorist' on their activities might be a wise first step in any fightback. And again repeating myself, there is Animal Welfare legislation on offer which both provides legal protection from their antics and demonstrates to joe public that your birds are being well looked after... and, through inference of higher standards of care, absolutely no danger to public health.

 

Slug, if there is a law limiting numbers of birds, I think your Union needs to have it clarified, otherwise you simply invite unwelcome attention. How do the cats, dogs, small animals & birds 'Show' societies manage to exist with that law in place?

 

 

[Guest]

Bruno

 

As I said in my earlier post Racing Pigeons have been given a bad name in the USA by Woody Allan referring to them as flying rats.

 

I have advocated for ages that it is up to the individual flyer to promote the wonderful qualities of our birds to our friends and neighbours.  It doesn't take very much time and effort to invite your immediate neighbours round on race day, give them a loft tour explain what is happening and sit and watch the birds come home. A few burgers on the grill and cans of pop also go down very well.

 

Last year we held "A Day at the Races.  We hosted this to invite members of the general public to see what pigeon racing as all about.  Briefly I gave all my young bird team racing names, put a board up and let people make a dollar bet on the birds, the birds were released several times from about 5 miles the winner to take half and half to be donated to our local Volunteer Search and Rescue Squad, who were looking for money to finish their new equipment truck off roughly a thousand dollars.  Local businesses donated Hot dogs buns, pop, ice cream etc and the Firefighters cooked for the day.  We also had a pigeon plop, a board divided into 48 numbered squares, the board had a cage on top and a [pigeon was put in, which ever square the bird plopped on was the winner.  Through these events we presented the Search and Rescue with $1,400, everyone who won prizes donated their winning to the cause.

 

It was tremendous to raise such an amount for these great folks, but the main object was to introduce the public to our Sport, at one time we had over 100 poeple in the yard, we gave them loft tours let them handle birds and dispelled any rumours that our birds were "nasty"

 

We have been asked already by many folk who attended, what will be the date for the 2006 event as they enjoyed the day so much.

[Guest]

Well done Hyacinth, sounds like a great day out.  

 

Mayor of London, Ken Livingstone, also referred to pigeons as 'rats of the skies' when during 2004 / 2005 he attempted to ban people from feeding the lowly ferals in London's Trafalgar Square AND attempted to introduce lethal methods of controlling the birds' numbers.

 

He simply caused public outrage and uproar, and his plans were abandoned.  

 

General public aren't quite the numpties that some take them to be  

[Guest]

A BAN WAS PUT ON FEEDING FERAL PIGEONS ABOUT 3 YEAR AGO IN DUNDEE CITY SQUARE. A GUY HAS A JOB OF WALKING AROUND THE SQUARE MAKING SURE NO ONE FEEDS THEM. :-/ PS. THATS WERE I GOT MY STOCK BIRDS ;D HAD TO PUT THAT IN BEFORE SOMEONE ELSE DID. ;D

[Guest]

Wondered if this had made any difference to their numbers, Clockman?  

 

Hundreds of ferals in Falkirk town centre now.  And contrary to what RSPB tells us, there's not a ringed pigeon amongst them. Ferals aren't being fed, more feeding from dropped 'edible' litter... curries, chips, kebabs etc.  :-/

 

 

Which town square supplies your stock now?    ;D

 

[Guest slugmonkey]

Hey clockman

we have these great big grain elevators here that are loaded with pigeons if I caught a few of theses Elevator strain and crossed them with your Town squares then we put them back with my railroad bridge hen do ya think we could fly Barcelon next year ???

 

LOL