genetics

storm rollers · September 18, 2009

hi im trying to find some info on pigeon genetics and was hoping for some sugestions cheers

PATTY BHOY · September 18, 2009

1) Brown cock x blue hen = all blue sons carrying brown; all brown daughters

2) Blue cock x brown hen = all blue sons carrying brown; all blue daughters

3) Blue cock x blue hen = all blue sons; all blue daughters

4) Blue cock x ash-red hen = all ash-red sons carrying blue; all blue daughters

5) Ash-red cock x blue hen = all ash-red sons carrying blue; all ash-red hens

6) Brown cock x ash-red hen = all ash-red sons carrying brown; all brown hens.

7) Ash-red cock x brown hen = all ash-red sons carrying brown; all ash-red hens

storm rollers · September 18, 2009

cheers patty

Glassfeather · September 18, 2009

Hi there,

Lots of info at these pages:

http://www.angelfire.com/ga/huntleyloft/Page1.html

http://barnhartlofts.com/index.htm

http://www.slobberknockerlofts.com/

http://www.angelfire.com/ga3/pigeongenetics/

http://www.brieftaubenfarben.de./Erlaeuterungsbutton.htm

http://www.kcisp.net/~rmangile/Pigeons/index.html

National Federation

September 18, 2009

There are some damn good books on Amazon on the subject of genetics. I have found that the biggest problem with breeding pigeons is the progeny testing. If you want to successfully breed livestock you have to know if you are going in the right direction. Physical factors are easy to recognise but we are looking for mental ability as much as for physical ability.

One of the big problems is the way that we are mislead by the people who want to sell pigeons. Advert after advert are advertising birds that are alleged to be out of this and that. These are birds that normally have done nothing and there is no proper proof that the claims made for their parentage are worth anything.

I have cut to the chase as far as breeding is concerned. I use the Bull System so that I can pair one cock to up to 10 hens. The cocks I use have to have won at least 4 races. This is not a fool proof method but it is definatly giving me progress. And rather than try to work out which are the recessive genes and which are the dominant, I continue breeding like this because in the end there will be a concentration of winning genes. All the best pigeon breeders have progressed like this. The main differance between most of us and the majority of the big names is the fact that most of them were wealthy and could afford to buy the best performance birds to get started.

Another difficulty is that, idealy, we should concentrate on just one type of competition. That is a problem here in Britain because our racing tends to start at short distances and progess through the season to the really long races. I doubt if there are pigeons that can cope with this type of racing especially when you consider the wide variations in weather conditions.

To make things simpler for myself, I have decided to concentrate one group of birds on the races up to 300 miles and another group on races over 300 miles. The practical problem for me, is that I have 5 cocks that have won well at the shorter distances but only one cock that is a true long distance pigeon. So to improve matters I will be on the look out for a good distance cock with a seriously good performance record behind him. And you can take it from me, there are not many of those out there for sale.

September 19, 2009

Owen's post is interesting, because most posts on here on genetics are like the earlier ones, on colour genetics, while for me at least, genetics is all about trying to breed winning racing pigeons, by conserving the qualities that make that possible.

Reading about genetics is also as riveting as watching paint dry. One of the best racing pigeon-related genetic works that I have read is in Steven Van Breemen's on-line Winning Magazine, which is subscription only, and his translation of Dr Alfons Anker's work is serialised on there. Bit wooden in places because it is translated Hungarian - Dutch - English, it is still a brilliant insight into pigeon genetics. Anker was a geneticist who bred winning pigeons, knew all the old lines, and he was also responsible for breeding the world-standard meat pig. He was also very interested in horse racing, and the lines / breeding of some of the English thouroughbreds are mentioned as examples in his work.

Well worth a read.

September 19, 2009

For me the challenge is to overcome, and take advantage of the fact, that the genes we seek are mainly recessive. In other words they do not make themselves available except when they are present on both sides of the individual. Worse still we can not see what we are looking for. If the genes we are trying to work with were easy to see, such as colour, size or shape, or of the dominant variety, our job would be easy. So the only path we can take is to do a lot of trial pairings, followed by rigourous progeny testing.

Theoretically, when we have found what we are looking for, we should then engage in pairing relations together. Inbreeding. However, there is the rub, inbreeding costs us in lost vigour. And it this vital ingedient,vigour, that we need for the bird to express it's self in the way we intend. A lot of breeders from the past have used this technique, hence the reason we have come to believe in the concept of the Golden Couple, or the Prepotent Sire. Unless the recessive gene is in play neither of these things will take effect.

I studied the techniques used to breed race horses. This was because they have similar problems regarding breeding that we have. About the only thing of use, that came from it for me, was that I found out the value of the female. It works like this. All race horse sires are selected because of their performances. Therefore, all the foals born are sired by the best. The same is not true of the mares. Some are selected for their performances but not all by a long way. It was then that I realised that the secret of selecting likely winners from yearlings was to examine the performances of previous foals produced by the mares. Mares that had produced winners previously were very likely to do it again. Even with differant partners. In other words, the odds were now in our faviour in regard to selecting performers. Some females seem to be able to supply their young with the essential health and strength that is always needed by creatures that are judged by performance. I suspect that it is true with humans as well. The other thing that came to mind was that when horses from sprinter lines were paired with stayers the outcome was very disapointing. Stayers that would fade late in the race and sprinters could not quite make the speed.

As far as our birds are concerned, we should probably look for hens that are known to breed winners. And try to breed like with like when it comes to the type of races we are selecting for. I use a similar technique as the race horse breeders in that I only use males that have given me the type of performances I am selecting for. Already I have found that the rules apply to pigeons just like it does for other livestock. All factors not involved with the factor we are selecting for has to be ignored. So we need to keep tight records on the actual performances of each individual and ignore colour, shape, size, eye theories and anything else that is not performance lead.

If you decide to do as I have done, which is to read about it, until your eyes are popping out of your head. I think you may condense it all down to the sort of levels I have expressed here. Regardless of whether you look at the work of Darwin, Mendal the Monk or more modern geneticists the main criteria is allows the same. You have to be able to recognise the value of the individuals you have bred. And there is only one way to do that. Test the progeny, carefully and fairly within the narrowest band of performance possible. And when you decide to introduce new blood, let it be from individuals that have come from families that are known to perform in competitions that are similar to the ones you have selected to breed for. The quickest way forward must surely be by breeding like with like.

I hope this helps if only to promote a discussion and more debate.

Owen

holmsidelofts · September 19, 2009

Owen's post is interesting, because most posts on here on genetics are like the earlier ones, on colour genetics, while for me at least, genetics is all about trying to breed winning racing pigeons, by conserving the qualities that make that possible.

Reading about genetics is also as riveting as watching paint dry. One of the best racing pigeon-related genetic works that I have read is in Steven Van Breemen's on-line Winning Magazine, which is subscription only, and his translation of Dr Alfons Anker's work is serialised on there. Bit wooden in places because it is translated Hungarian - Dutch - English, it is still a brilliant insight into pigeon genetics. Anker was a geneticist who bred winning pigeons, knew all the old lines, and he was also responsible for breeding the world-standard meat pig. He was also very interested in horse racing, and the lines / breeding of some of the English thouroughbreds are mentioned as examples in his work.

Well worth a read.

Steven van breemans the art of breeding is as said above one of the best books written about pigeon gentics. Professor anker was a geneticist who steven knew extremely well, and worked along side with until professor ankers death.

I have known steven since 1989 and we used to correspond via letters before email came about and still do via email , Steven was also one of the very first people to recognize the darkness system and wrote lots of articles for the racing pigeon pictorial many years ago. Hes also know for his mechanical ventilation system which allowed him to keep over 150 youngsters on a very small loft extremely healthy.

I have visited stevens home on a few occasions in holland and find him to be a very friendly and massively knowledgeable person on the sport of racing pigeons. I have subscribed to his online racing pigeon magazine since day one and can recommend it to anyone. As well as the monthly editions of the magazine you get access to some excellent articles written by steven and also the full transcript to his book the art of breeding which he wrote with professor Anker. I think if i remember rightly its Â£25 a year, excellent value.

jas.