birds of prey

[jimmy white]

     FALCON THREAT TO PIGEON RACING.

PIGEON RACING IS AT RISK OF DYING OUT IN SCOTLANDWITHIN 20 YEARS IF THE NUMBERS OF BIRDS OF OF PREY NORTH OF THE BORDER CONTINUES TO INCREASE UNCHECKED, ACCORDING A LEADING PIGEON FANCIER.   DR. PHILIP LYNCH,THE CHAIRMAN OF THE S,H,U, SAVE OUR SPORT FROM RAPTERS GROUP, HAS CALLED FOR A CHANGE IN LAW TO ALLOW INCREASING NUMBERS OF RAPTORS TO BE KILLED.      THE NUMBER OF SPARROWHACKS AND PERIGRINE FALCONS, WHICHARE CLAIMED TO FEED ON PIGEONS ARE AT RECORD LEVELS AND AN ESTIMATED    120,000  RACING BIRDS ARE BEING KILLED IN SCOTLAND EVERY YEAR.      THE SITUATION IS SO BAD THAT THE RPRA ASS. HAS LOST 2,000 MEMBERS AND THE SHU.300   SINCE THE START OF THE YEAR.   THERE ARE THOUGHT TO BE 4,200 PERIFGRINE FALCONS AND 120,OOO SPARROWHALKS LIVING IN THE U.K. WITH EACH EATING BETWEEN 2 AND 3 BIRDS A DAY.DR. LYNCH SAID  ,,THIS IS A PROBLEM WHICH IS GETTING WORSE.ITS A TERRIBLE WORRY BECAUSE, IF NOTHING IS DONE ABOUT THE UNPRECEDENTED NUMBERS OF RAPTORS, WE WILL SEE A MASSIVE DROP IN THE NUMBERS OF FANCIERS IN 10 YEARS AND WE WONT HAVE A SPORT IN 20 YEARS.   DR. P. LYNCH, WHO HAS BEEN RACING PIGEONS FOR ALLMOST 60 YEARS ADDED THAT HE HAD LOST HALF HIS BIRDS,,,,, THIS YEAR.       RAPTOR NUMBERS HAVE ROCKETED, WHICH HAS BECOME A HUGE PROBLEM FOR OUR SPORT. ,,,,,,,        BUT RSPB RAPTOR, SPECIALIST DUNCAN   ORR_-EWING SAID THAT INDEPENDANT RESEARCH SHOWED  THAT FANCIERS HAD FAILED TO TAKE PRECAUTIONS AGAINST RAPTOR ATTACKS.       PERIGRINES ARE BEING MADE A SCAPEGOAT HERE AND THE FANCIERS REACTION IS JUST GO AND KILL SOMETHING TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM, HE SAID.    IF THEY WERE TO KILL A RAPTOR, THEN, IT WOULD JUST BE REPLACED A FEW DAYS LATER, WITH ANOTHER ONE.       THEY HAVE BEEN GIVEN,,,,,ADVICE,,,,   SUCH AS NOT TO USE RACE ROUTES ALONG THE M74 CORRIDER WHERE THERE ARE LOTS OF PERIGRINES, TO KEEP TH THEIR LOFTS AWAY FROM WOOD LAND COVER,, TO PUT,,,,, MODEL OWLS,,,,,ON  THEIR ROOFS ,AND TO USE PIGEONS WITH A WHITE RUMP, BECAUSE RESEARCH SHOWS ,THEY ARE LESS LIKELY TO BE ATTACKED, BUT OUR EXPERIENCEIS THAT FANCIERS ARENT DOING THIS.

 

 

    MAY I POLITELY SUGGEST THAT MR DUNCAN ORR- EWING DO A LITTLE BIT MORE RESEARCH,, THE RSBP ARE A RESPONSBLE ORGANIZATION, AND SHOULD REALLY TAKE A GOOD LOOK AT, THESE REMARKS,,,       AND RECTIFY THEM,     JAMES     WHITE

[jimmy white]

       QUEENS PIGEON TRADGEDY.

A PRIZE PIGEON FROM THE QUEENS AWARD WINNING LOFTS. AT SANDRINGHAM IS BELEIVED    DEAD, AFTER IT FAILED TO RETURN FOM A 15 MILE TRAINING FLIGHT.     THE BIRD WAS IN TRAINING FOR A 238 MILE RACE FROM ST. MALO IN BRITTANY TO MALVERN IN WORCESTERSHIRE. THE 1003 ENTRANCE FEE FOR THE RACE , WHICH HAS A TOP PRIZE OF 120003, HAD BEEN PAID, BUT THE BIRD  FAILED TO APPEAR,AND IS BELEIVED TO HAVE FALLEN VICTIM TO A SPARROWHACK.    THE QUEEN, WHO IS PATRON OF  PIGEON ASS,  MAINTAINS A FLOCK OF ABOUT 160 BIRDS AT HER LOFT AT SANDRINGHAM. HER LATE MOTHER WAS ALSO A KEEN PIGEON FANCIER. THE ROYAL LOFTS WAS ORIGINALLY ESTABLISHED WHEN KING LEOPOLD OF THE BELGIANS GAVE SOME RACING PIGEONS TO ALBERT EDWARD, LATER KING EDWARD VII.

[jimmy white]

MY BROTHER  IS   DAVID ,IS OF THE TOP BREEDERS OF CANARIES , HAS RECENTLY HAD A SPARROW HAWK ENTER THE WINDOW OF HIS 100 STRONG CANARY TEAM, AND MOST OF THE BIRDS FRIGHTENED ,SO MUCH HE WONDERS IF NOW THEY WILL BE JARRED IN THE MOULT, OFF COURSE THIS WINDOW IS NETTED, BUT THIS SPARROW HAWK ,WAS STILL PERSISTING TO CLING TO THE WIRE, SO NOW HE HAS A FROSTED GLASS WINDOW, THIS HAS SORTED THE PROBLEM WITH HIS CANARIES, BUT THE PROBLEM NOW IS, THIS SPARROW HAWK IS NOW KILLING , THE SMALL SONG BIRDS , HE TAKES PLEASURE IN FEEDING IN HIS GARDEN, I GAVE HIM TWO OF THESE OWLS , DUNCAN ORR OF THE RSPB RECOMMENDS, AND CAN ASSURE YOU THIS MAKES ,NO DIFFERANCE WHATSOEVER

[Guest]

There was a feature on BBC 'Breakfast' on Monday, On the RSPBs Gardenwatch project.  

 

Interviewed what turned out to be (for me) a prize numpty,     >  who had a bird table set up in his garden, and took pleasure in watching the birds (and counting them - gardenwatch project is about establishing 'song bird' levels in UK) while the family were at breakfast.  All very commendable.  

 

He then goes on to describe the variety of birds that visited his garden that morning; including 'the excitement' of seeing a sparrowhawk arrive amongst them, scattering them to the 4-winds, except a finch which the hawk made a meal out of on his lawn - which he watched (over breakfast) and thought was exciting.  :'(

 

I cannot begin to understand how those fanciers who have regular sparrowhawk attacks must feel. I do know that a loft close to me put up CDs last year and daily visits have reduced to zero since then. In my own case, I am fortunate that there is a colony of crows in the trees in my street which harass and drive off everything including buzzards and peregrines. So the garden and loft is safe - but not the general area, and my birds can be attacked 'out there' just the same as everybody else's.

 

 

[Guest shadow]

I would really like the RSPB to tell the truth about the number of raptors now flying in the UK .I know that the welsh, scots and all the fanciers on the west coast have been plagued for years but it does not stop there I liveon the east coast and perigrines hsve now started to nest on any high building they can find and the only bird you can see in the garden is a couple of sparrows and a handful of starlings. Oh must not miss out the female sparrow hawk who is often sitting on the front gate looking at the lofts or trying to bash it self to death against the aviary wire to get at the canaries there are only 8 left most of my other birds have died through shock. She is not daft I put up cd discs and that stopped her for a while utill she learnt how to fly between my house and the one next door, below the height of the discs. So now she is living on borrowed time and the RSPB had the cheek to ask the Humber bridge if they could put up platforms on top of the towers, lookily they were turned down as for numbers of raptors I am sure you could triple any number they issue.

 

fly hard fly fair sorry if I have bored you all.

[snowy]

never even noticed hawks untill i started up again, & there is a few pigeon fanciers close to me as i see them fly around & near my place of work, & i always see at least a hawk at least 3 times a week either at home or at work, one flew right infront of me real fast into a garden. its just amazing how many there is around now.

[Guest]

Well, Jimmy, Rose & Shadow, I'd previously spoken to Mealybar (by pm) about my own private thoughts on a possible light at the end of this long tunnel;  ;D

 

I've always been an advocate of trying to turn bad situations around to work to your own advantage.  

 

You'll be aware of the chap who has been advocating for years in the BHW that we should deprive raptors of their main source of food - our pigeons - by keeping them in for (I think) two seasons. Under NORMAL circumstances that would be unpalatable for most fanciers.

 

But these aren't NORMAL times or NORMAL circumstances:

 

(1) We've a dangerous virus on the loose and expected here soon.

 

(2) We're being wiped out by hawks.

 

(3) We're losing increasing numbers of birds every year racing...nothing to do with hawks....more like through clashing, dehydration on the transporters, no full weather report covering the whole race etc.

 

None of these things can be solved overnight.  :'(

 

If we bite the bullet and confine our birds, we immediately tackle problems (1) and (2). What raptors the virus doesn't kill for us, will be almost certainly wiped out by us by depriving them of their main food source. There won't be much chicken offal for the RSPB to feed them on either as the contingency plan bans the movement of poultry products too;

 

And while the virus is about, our hands are tied anyway - no racing or showing or movements of pigeons - so lets concentrate on (3) and get these problems identified and sorted, so that when we do start racing again, its a clean sheet, which we can all enjoy once again.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jimmy white]

while i agree with most of brunos points, but i would ask any pigeon fancier that has actually seen a perigrine, or sparrowhawk, for that matter ,dive in to a batch of say    100 pigeons, it may kill one , but as for the rest, well i can only say you have to see it to beleive it.   its not the one thats killed. its the rest, theyll fly in to anything, trees ,wires cars, and yes even brick walls , afew years ago ive seen this happen with my own birds , released approx 50 ybs , one killed,    half them never seen again, and lifted about a dozen out of the fir trees on the hill about a mile away, broken legs, gashed so badly that they had ,had it and the few that did make it home , do you think they would forget that, im sure they would bypass that area comming home, making it a longer way home for them in a race, just maybe to be struck again.  

  i handed in to the shu secy at that time about a hundred rings found by game keepers from the north of england , along with the letters from the game keepers as to their whereabouts and i can assure you they werent just from the m 74 as the rspb said , they were from the east right to the west .can you see that the rspb chap is actualy blaming us????put up owls ,,, nonsense, their all on the m74  nonsense////     does this  EXPERT expect us to beleive him i for one dont as i have even seen a hawk kill a pigeon beside the owl ,,, cmonn who is he kidding, not me anyway

[jimmy white]

p.s  and according to the rspb    only race pigeons with white rumps, they dont eat these???????well ive heard every thing now

[Guest]

I fully agree with all you say Jimmy, especially the scatter effect. You're not the first to tell me that they've witnessed this, and it certainly rings true for, and makes sense to me.  

 

However, we have had a forum discussion on your original post which is and was 'the Scotsman article'. If you are an unbiased reader of that article, the 'pluses' stack up for the pigeon folks in every line of the article EXCEPT for the last: in a single line of 20/30 lines of text, the RSPB simply says 'we told you not to race the M74/M6 corridor ..... and you did". One line destroys the whole case for the pigeon folks.

 

And we cannot argue against this because first the Midland, then the North West Federation in 2005, changed from East to West Coast. Lanarkshire did it for one year (2004). My last post under 'Scotsman article' was that we had shot ourselves in the foot. And we still have. RSPB are still seen as the 'so-called' experts by Joe Public. So if pigeon folks want to beat RSPB and win over Joe Public, they've got to play the game according to RSPB rules....by doing so, they strengthen their own case and their own position in the public eye.

 

But my last point (3) far outweighs anything that a hawk or hawks can do. If you remember the weekend of 10th September where despite adverse weather reports, birds were basketed for two nights for a Saturday race that was never going to happen. The BHW race report for the BBC @ Lamballe (p34/36) makes particularly sad reading -out of 2300 race birds only 11 birds on the day, and only 127 in race time (i.e. over three days). Even in the MNFC Picauville report P12, (they had the presence of mind to bring them back) the convoyer expressed concern at the deteriorating condition of some of the birds under his care. Some fanciers reported significant weight loss amongst some of the birds returning. Now I posted under 'Transport of pigeons to races' a research paper that proved in certain conditions, the average weight loss for a pigeon was 14% of its body weight BEFORE the race even begins...and that was for confinement lasting a maximum of 23 hours. 18% loss was fatal. That was known 'by pigeon folks' as long ago as 1990. Isn't it about time we did something positive about this...and hawks... while we can?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jimmy white]

BRUNO ,WHILE I RESPCT WHAT YOU SAY THE ARTICLE I READ WAS NOT IN THE SCOTSMAN,   BUT ,  THE CAGE AND AVIARY.AND TO MY MIND , THE RSPB EXPERT MR DUNCAN ORR HIFEN EWING IS COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY WRONG IN ALL HIS WISDOM, FIRST OF ALL HE SAID FANCIERS FAILED TO TAKE PRECAUTIONS AGAINST RAPTOR ATTACKS     NONSENSE....     THEY HAD BEEN GIVEN INSTRUCTIONS NOT TO USE RACE ROUTES ALONG THE M74 CORRIDER,,DOES MR DUNCAN ORR HIFEN EWING KNOW THAT , THAT IS WHERE THE PERIGRINES ARE, JUST ALONG THE M74 CORRIDER NOWHERE ELSE,, NONSENSE.... HE GOES ON TO SAY ,KEEP YOUR LOFTS AWAY FROM WOODLAND COVER   NONSENSE,,,  IM SURE HE KNOWS PERIGRINES CAN FLY DISTANCES .HE THEN GOES ON TO SAY PUT MODEL OWLS ON YOUR ROOFS,    NONSENSE...THIS DOES NOT WORK.... AND THE BEST OF ALL, JUST RACE PIGEONS WITH WHITE RUMPS     WELL  WELL WELL, I CAN JUST IMAGINE A LIBERATION OF WHITE RUMPED PIGEONS  , ALL GETTING HOME AND THE PERIGRINES STARVING

[Guest]

Its the same article, Jimmy.  

 

You are perfectly correct in what you say that most of it is utter tosh. But the one 'bit' that we cannot argue with is peregrine populations are concentrated in certain areas: fanciers and birding folks alike agree that West is where the largest colonies are. So we shouldn't be trying to race birds there. If you look at BHW P65, Appleby Magna News, middle column: 'The  Professor' also talks about the effects of falcons swooping into a flock of pigeons. "We can do very little about this other than when we sit down to discuss our race programmes, we can endeavour to stay clear of areas we are told are populated with these predators, for example Devon and Cornwall."  

 

Its not exactly rocket science, Jimmy. More like guid Scots' common sense.  

[jimmy white]

YOUR MIDDLE PARAGRAPH , BRUNO, I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOUR SAYING, ABOUT THE JOE PUBLIC, I AM MR JOE PUBLIC , I DO NOT RACE PIGEONS,  AND MANY OTHER JOE PUBLICS AROUND ME , NEIGHBOURS ,ETC CAN ALL SEE THAT WE HAVE LESS AND LESS SONGBIRDS WE CAN EVEN SEE THE SPARROW HAWK KILLING THEM , ESPECIALY WHERE I AM , IN THE COUNTRY , SO REALLY THE JOE PUBLIC THAT TAKE INTEREST AND SEE THIS, KNOW WHATS HAPPENING , THE PROBLEM IS THAT MOST OF THE JOE PUBLICS , THAT WORK IN TOWN , DONT KNOW WHATS HAPPENING, AND THATS MY POINT THEY NEED TO KNOW

[jimmy white]

ON YOUR LAST POINT BRUNO I AGREE WITH YOU THIS WAS QUITE SHOCKING , ONLY A HANDFULL OF BIRDS TIMED IN , IN THAT RACE IN RACE TIME, BUT BAD AS IT WAS HOW MANY TIMES HAS THAT HAPPENED SINCE PIGEON RACING STARTED. ALLTHOUGH THIS WAS BAD, I WILL ADDMIT IT JUST DOESNT HAPPEN MUCH AT ALL . THANK GOODNESS, OUT OF THE THOUSANDS OF RACES IN OVER A HUNDRED YEARS , THIS IS JUST NOT A COMMON OCCURANCE , MISTAKES CAN AND WILL HAPPEN, BUT AT THE SAME TIME I CANNOT SEE WHAT IT HAS TO DO WITH THE POST ON HAWKS , AND THE DRIVELL,  RSPB SPECIALIST MR DUNCAN ORR-EWING HAS COME OUT WITH.  

[jimmy white]

BRUNO I REALY UNDERSTAND YOUR THINKING AND YOUR WELL MEANING BUT IM AFRAID TO SAY IT WOULDNT MATTER WHAT RACE ROUTE WAS TAKEN , THE SITUATION WOULD BE THE SAME, THE SIMPLE MATTER IS THE HAWKS ARE WIDE SPREAD OVER THE WHOLE COUNTRY, THEY ARE BREEDING AND OF COURSE THE MORE THEY BREED THE MORE THEY MULTIPLY, AND THE MORE THEY MULTIPLY, THE MORE ROOM THEY NEED [ I WONDER IF DUNCAN ORR HIFEN EWING KNOWS THEIRIN CORNWALL ,NESTING ON TRURO CATHEDERAL, ALSO ON THE FORTH BRIDGE, THATS APART FROM THE M74 CORRIDOR]

[Guest]

I think your point that there is a difference between hawk and peregrine populations is very well made, Rose.  

 

Because when talking about not to site a loft near woodland cover, it would of course make no difference to a peregrine attack, as you say Jimmy, but it would offer cover for a goshawk or sparrowhawk 'stealth' attack on a loft. But while it may make some sense to the RSPB, it of course shows only part of the picture - because these hawks can make their approach from any direction and any cover. In my own case, it would make no sense at all because 'my' trees house 'my' fighter squadrons of crows.

 

I would like to make sure Jimmy, that there is no understanding either by you or others, on my post on the British Barcelona Club's race. I wasn't inferring that any mistake had been made in the decision to liberate the pigeons.    I was attempting to show that far more pigeons could be lost by our own mismanagement of our birds (racing through peregrine infested areas / transport & day of racemarking decisions) than could be lost in a 'hawk' attack.

 

Unfortunately, things are not as you say, this race outcome was not a one-off, this experience is becoming more of a regular occurrence: BHW P55, Dublin View, "By some accounts, upwards of 20,000 birds have been lost in Ireland in the last three to four weeks". That is why I included it in a post on 'hawks' - because we could deal with these issues 'in a oner': and get them all sorted.

 

 

 

 

[speedbird]

i supose im lucky dont seem to have that problem where i am in yorkshire

[jimmy white]

i take your point on ,,,mismanagement,,, on bbc race, but mis management can be put right, ie   learning from our mistakes, but as far as the raptor issue, we cannot seem to put that right   , i agree there are places where they are more densly populated, but we have to face facts that these birds are multiplying  and therefor need more space that is why they are all over now,,, and still multipllying,,why do the rspb not admit this, instead of comming out with nonsense that is in fact an insult to our intelligence

[Guest shadow]

Wait until the red kites and the goshawks  that the RSPB are liberating build up in numbers and their normal food source dries up. I am sure you will start getting problem. Perigrines are now nesting in lincolnshire it wont be long before they spread

[jimmy white]

shadow,  theres plenty goshawks around the borders, i stayed in kelso, and wittnessed many attacks on mine  at that time . about 7 years ago.   iknow for a fact that andrew agnew the inland national winner, is demented with them, he stays in the outskirts of kelso

[jimmy white]

would i be right in saying that , during the war,, they shot hawks, to save the pigeons carrying important messages, so much so that the hawks became endangered, so after the war,they were actually protected . well i would think this would be fair enough, the problem is this law still stands  60 years after the war . i think the hawks are beautifull birds, i also like all animals and birds, but if  the game keepers were allowed to do their jobs properly, they would keep all animal and bird life in harmony,and lets face it these people, know the countryside inside out

[Guest]

Spot on regarding war situation, Jimmy.    Slightly ajar after that I'm afraid - but only for 15 years or so.  ;D

 

The decline was due to DDT and other pesticides getting into the food chain and rendering Mr & Mrs Hawk's eggs largely infertile... le classic 'bad hatch'. They almost became extinct during the 1960's.  Brought pairs in specially from (Scandinavia?) and set them up secretly at various locations during the (70/80's?).

 

Not sure about your balancing act (gamekeepers) it is usually food supply that determines their numbers.    Le Problemme is RSPB playing God and providing artificial nest sites complete with artificial 'food supply' and feeding them until they become established - in an area that may not be able to support 'another' pair.

 

I've various other concerns too - about their true origins (I don't believe the hype that they are 'real' wild birds - I reckon they're captive bred) and they are unable to survive by hunting 'natural' prey that's probably a bit too 'street wise' for most of them, hence they 'turn' to soft prey and domestic scenes like gardens and lofts: 'lions reduced to hunting cattle because they're f*all use at catching anything else'.   ;D

 

[jimmy white]

 

your quite right bruno , i remember that myself now, it was the ddt, that kicked it off ,

but that was right during the war  these pigeons saved many lives.

i will make no further coments on the game keepers and about the food that determines the numbers?????

 i also see your point on rspb playing god and  STILL providing nest sites and food supplies to them, EACH year to get new ones established, but theve been doing that for years now, there are plenty great great gandchildren WELL established, and wild,  AND BREEDING, my beleive is, apart from the avian flu threat, there will be little or no racing in 20 years time due to the hawk population, pigeon racing is declining at a very fast rate, most fanciers that are bothered with hawks on a daily basis are just calling it a day, and who can blame them .  

[Guest]

Well, I agree with you about hawks being reason enough for fanciers leaving the sport.  

 

But I think there's bound to be a come-uppance, a redress by Nature of the current  predator / prey imbalance. We know hawks are territorial and take each other out; we know that there is competition between species of hawk and they take each other out; we know the effects of the rogue juveniles in nature who can't / don't have a mate and they take out the nest, the young, and the resident male.  

 

Those that try to play (God) with Nature usually end up right back where they started. Whether that's through Avian flu or some other instrument remains to be seen.  8)

[mealybar]

I live and race on the Eastern side of the country, and never had any trouble with my birds until this year, broken legs, injured wings, many many missing birds. Its definately a 'no brainer' to use the east route - but for how much longer? I dont think it'll be too long until the hawks get as bad here too. Just think of the many allotment sites around the north east - thats not a snack, its a supermarket for the hawk!

 

A big part of the RSPB armoury is a piece of research conducted (by the RPRA I think) on the reasons for losses was only put down to 7% the fault of raptors (off the top of my head) out of a total loss of about half of all birds; it fundementally put down that something like 43% of losses are not to do with hawks. ---- This as any fancier knows is, hm... complete tosh; for the very reasons that everyone has already posted. My shot at it is: The reason that many birds stray is that they have outrun a hawk - I mean we put bad results and some losses down to stress, imagine the stress of being chased for your life, or diving for cover and trying to do anything, not to get home, but just to stay alive!

 

What can we do?? well the RSBP have a reputation with joe public (good), and a big bank balance/cash flow --- money = power --- we'll be lucky whatever we do!  :-/ > :(