pigeon colors ?

[MsPigeon]

I just wondered if someone might be able to explain hows come there is only 3 colors of pigeons. I recently was showing a photo of my 2005 champion YB black cock to a fellow flyer. He told me there is no such thing as a black pigeon as there is only three colors. I assume he is speaking of genetics. Can anyone explain.

Carol

[bewted]

hi mspigeon                                      if you look up on the internet about colour genetics in pigeons,it will explain all,sorry i can not give you a specific site,but,its there somewhere.i have seen it and very confusing to me,good luck,let me know if you suceed,,,,bewted

[AlanWilkins]

Ok my thing this i use to breed mutation Gouldian finchs n in a nut shell there are 100s of variations on colours in all birds but the genetic make up is based on like you say a certain amout of  base colours of pigeons . the variations come from the differant combinations of the of these bases and weather they are a dominant or recesive gene.

 

Say you have 2 colours to make it easy A and B, birds produced would be A recesive b or B recesice also that gives you AA BBso from 2 birds you now have 4 colour make ups already and each differate combination has a new colour emergin.

 

A to B =AA BB Ab Ba

possible pairings

 

A to AA  A to BB A to Ab A to BA

the same combinations are on the B side so from 2 colours u have 8 combinations already and thats where you get the colours from.

 

Mind it did take me 7 years to produce a silver Gouldian but i do use genetics in me breeding of racers and touch wood its working.

 

Hope i havent confused you more

 

[MsPigeon]

Thanks for your help Alan and bewted.

[jimmy white]

im not quite sure what the man means mspigeon, i know there are dominant colours and recessive colours and as far as am aware of that a white one is actually colourless, dont ask me how they arrive at that, but would be interested to see replies i somehow think there is no pigment in the whites but to me its still a colour,,,white

[AlanWilkins]

white is resessive to all other colours but comes out as a double factore now your gettin in to genetics in a deep way

[AlanWilkins]

white is resessive to all other colours but comes out as a double factore now your gettin in to genetics in a deep way

[MsPigeon]

Someone on another list told me that there is only 3 colors genetically speaking, ash red, blue and brown. They said that every pigeon color we see is one of these that is genetically modified by one or more genes or not. SO for instance my black is actually a blue with "spread factor". The bar color on the tail has spread over the whole pigeon makeing it look black but genetically speaking it is a blue. I'm not sure about the white birds, but I would guess it could come from a number of combinations depending on the genetics of it's family. Very complicated if you ask me.

Carol

[MsPigeon]

PS: I don't think I want "Blue with spread factor" engraved on my champion bird award. LOL

[jimmy white]

neither do i   :)   go to" ask paul on genetics" and youll be worse off ;D ;D ;D

[jimmy white]

can any one tell me, if a red cheq is recessive ,  and a blue cheq   dominant.?

[Guest]

can any one tell me, if a red cheq is recessive ,  and a blue cheq   dominant.?

 

Red is the dominant colour Jimmy, and Chequer is 'a' dominant pattern. On the blue spread thingy, reckon this is wrong as the colour is (as I understand it) blue / black, with black being the 'second' dominant colour to red.

 

I've bother enough thanks: I've trouble with me colours, and real trouble telling the difference between Blue Chequer and Dark Chequer.

 

Maybe some of them spray paint jobs would help !!!!     ;D

[Guest]

Way back yonder in days of yore; Le Art teacher was adamant that black and white were NOT colours. Can't quite follow that.  

 

 

[Guest]

The order of dominance in the 3 colors of pigeons are;

 

1. Ash Red

2.Blue

3.Brown

 

The order of dominance in pattern is;

 

1. Barless

2.Barred.

3.Checker

4.Spread

 

Hope this helps.

 

 

that in color, Ash Red is the most dominant.

In Pattern, It would be spread, with barless being the least.

 

 

can any one tell me, if a red cheq is recessive ,  and a blue cheq   dominant.?

 

 

[Guest]

Carol,

 

There are only the three colors ,ash red blue and brown and all the rest are  these three colors with a color factor  . With your black being blue with the spread factor .

[jimmy white]

the reason i Asked that question was that at one time i bred a pigeon that was blue cheq on one side and red cheq on other side, in fact i think rose had a photo on the forum of one similar, i have also seen this half and half colour before i thought it might have been a" DOMICESSIVE ;D ;D ;D," whats the differance of an ash red and a red cheq?,

[Guest]

sent them an e-mail to ask about the colour Gene, The fanciers comes from all over the world.

 

 

Recessive and dominant are relative terms.  Is red cheq recessive to

which other trait?  Is blue cheq dominant to which other trait?  I'm

not sure your friend understands the meaning of dominant and recessive

in reference to traits.  This article

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominant_gene> kind of explains things

but it's a bit technical and it's not specific to pigeons.

Dominant/recessive aren't specific to pigeons either.  :-)

 

By the way, you're really talking about three different traits.  Red

and blue are color and cheq is pattern.  It's possible (and likely) to

have a red T-Pattern and a blue barred bird.  In general, color and

pattern are two separate traits.  Red (color), Blue (color) and cheq

(pattern) are three different traits.

 

By the way in answer to the other question you posted: the "only three

colors in pigeons" meme is probably more harmful than helpful. There

are three basic *pigments*  (note the emphasis there) produced in the

pigeon's body.  There may even be more pigments; I'm not sure that

geneticists have settled this question.  Those three basic pigments

are modified by other genes (for example, spread) which make all sorts

of colors appear.  The three basic pigments in order from the color

produced by the most dominant trait to least dominant are red, blue

and brown.  The arrangement of pigments in the pigeons feathers and

other factors cause the multiplicity of colors familiar to pigeon

fanciers.

 

I'm sure others can point you at some good books that explain basic

genetics as related to pigeons.  Wendell M. Levi's "The Pigeon" while

somewhat dated has an excellent introductory chapter on pigeon

genetics.

 

I'll bet Michael Spadoni (who's also on this mailing list) can give

you a better answer yet :-)

I think Michael's forgotten more about genetics than I currently know. :-)

 

 

--

Onorio Catenacci

[jimmy white]

;)is red colour trait  dominent to blue colour trait? :) or vica verca

[Guest beautyhomer]

The best book I have found for pigeon genetics is Axel Sell's Breeding and Inheritance in Pigeons.

This book covers all the colour and pattern combinations as well as feather ornamentations.

Ash Red,Blue and Brown are Alleles which means they are alternatives at the same locus in the chromosomes.These colours are sex linked.

The four different Alleles for pattern are Barless,Barred,Checker and Dark Checker.These are not sex linked.

Spread is a Modifying Factor,along with a lot of other genes such as Grizzle,Dilute,Indigo etc.

[Guest]

These two sites are very good, and will give you links to others. Enjoy.

 

Ron Huntley's Rare Colored Homing Pigeons

 

http://websearch.cs.com/cs/boomframe.jsp?query=ron+huntley&page=1&offset=0&result_url=redir%3Fsrc%3Dwebsearch%26requestId%3D3412db8046bfbf8%26clickedItemRank%3D1%26userQuery%3Dron%2Bhuntley%26clickedItemURN%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.angelfire.com%252Fga%252Fhuntleyloft%252F%26invocationType%3D-%26fromPage%3DCSroll%26amp%3BampTest%3D1&remove_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.angelfire.com%2Fga%2Fhuntleyloft%2F

 

 

 

 

Pigeon Genetics For fanciers

 

http://websearch.cs.com/cs/boomframe.jsp?query=frank+mosca&page=1&offset=0&result_url=redir%3Fsrc%3Dwebsearch%26requestId%3D3412db8046bfc63%26clickedItemRank%3D1%26userQuery%3Dfrank%2Bmosca%26clickedItemURN%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.angelfire.com%252Fga3%252Fpigeongenetics%252F%26invocationType%3D-%26fromPage%3DCSroll%26amp%3BampTest%3D1&remove_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.angelfire.com%2Fga3%2Fpigeongenetics%2F

 

[Guest]

an red cheq is and ash red that is checkered, ash red is barred.

 

A pigeon that is half blue check and half ash red check would likely be a mosaic. In very simple terms this is when part of the bird has one set of genes governing and the other part has another set. The difference can be colour or some other physical trait such as frill. It does not seem to be passed on to offspring.

 

Hope this helps, Jimmy

 

 

 

 

the reason i Asked that question was that at one time i bred a pigeon that was blue cheq on one side and red cheq on other side, in fact i think rose had a photo on the forum of one similar, i have also seen this half and half colour before i thought it might have been a" DOMICESSIVE ;D ;D ;D," whats the differance of an ash red and a red cheq?,

 

 

[jimmy white]

very very interesting but complicated subject, web sites very pleasant to watch , but after looking at a few , they tend to differ slightly, in opinions. im looking a bit more in to it [not that i think the colour makes any differance in racing] but quite amazing stuff.

[Guest]

Got an e-mail from Dr Wim, in South Africa.

 

In South Africa an ash red would normally be called either a red check if checkered and a mealie if barred.

 

Dr Wim

[Guest beautyhomer]

Same as here in the UK then.

 

What do they call a barless ash red and a ash red carrying spread??????

[Guest]

From Speight's last website address:-

 

Despite our common pigeon terminology usage, there is no blue pigment in pigeons.  The reason we've always used the term is because when the black pigment is clumped together in the cells of the feathers, it refracts the light in such a way that we see a bluish tinge. Note the wingshield of the blue bar.  This is why W.F. Hollander decided to designate the wild-type pigment as blue/black.  This terminology helps us to remember that when we speak of "blue" pigeons of any pattern, we're actually talking about birds with black pigment.

 

Personally speaking, I find 'no blue pigment in pigeons' quite difficult to swallow. The science of colour vision tells us that the colour we see MUST be there because the object reflects or absorbs only that colour of light. All very confusing.

 

Also, another post refers to Axel Sell's book: page 17 states 3 basic colours, black, red & brown. This conflicts with the previous statement, blue, red, brown. Still reckon that should be blue / black (after Hollander above), red & brown..

 

And RED is dominant to all colours, including Blue, Jimmy, and agree, interesting subject but not one which will help us to breed winning racing pigeons. Very few books on that type of genetics!!!!!!!!  ;D