silver hens

[Glassfeather]

 

was very interesting jimmy topic, but to add another thing to the twist, the fanciers who used to stock silver hens, the silver hens very rarely bred silvers, however the normal coloured offspring such as normal blue or a cheq used to be brillant birds out of the great silver hens.

 

 

Seems to me that it was simply a coincidence that the dilute gene happened to be a part of a good strain. I don't think there is any real correlation, it could just as easily have been an occasional white flight, or an opal, or some other minor mutation which didn't really have any bearing on performance.

 

[Wiley]

 

 

Seems to me that it was simply a coincidence that the dilute gene happened to be a part of a good strain. I don't think there is any real correlation, it could just as easily have been an occasional white flight, or an opal, or some other minor mutation which didn't really have any bearing on performance.

 

thing is glassfeather this theory hasnt just happened over the one strain, i know 3 different fanciers at the moment who swear by this and each and everyone of them have different strains and lines of pigeons, but it isnt the silvers that are performing it is there offspring

 

 

[jimmy white]

maybe just co-incidence but the late great jim williams [hard nat tours winner fame etc] had many of these silvers , yet as a lad can never remembering him sending these to races , but they certainly bred for him [i had birds from him which produced the odd silver and chocolates , one bird the" old meally" SU 63, 28228 won many times up till 9 y old at over 500 -600 miles , this bird often bred chocs , none of these chocs won , but they bredwinners?? im quite sure like alf baker , jim williams new his family of birds  

[Glassfeather]

Is it just the cocks bred from them that perform? I'm only asking because a silver hen's daughter won't inherit the dilute gene from her mother.

[jimmy white]

this to me is a very fascinating thing about pigeons,, the genetics , trying to breed  a  pigeon [whether it be show or race] to bring out the trait you want ,

the other thing  glassfeather may know [ill ask anyway ] would certain different colour pigeons have a different feather quality, i remember brian may discussing this in my house , about the" buff " type feathering and the ordinary feathering [as in canaries e,g] he used to call them" silk" feathered or "satin" feathering , the "silk" one repelling the water more than the other??

[ChrisMaidment08]

theres your mealy pic john, shame the bars crap!

 

snap only i never posted it will see if i can get on of cock i gave paul in lougher later ;D ;D ;D ;D

[Wiley]

Is it just the cocks bred from them that perform? I'm only asking because a silver hen's daughter won't inherit the dilute gene from her mother.

 

well i can only go on in the times where everyone near enough races widowhood and it is yes only the cocks, however the cocks themselves, children of the silver hens, seem to produce the occassional silver hens, and i have known for these silver hens to be 4-5 times a winner,

[Glassfeather]

Jimmy,

 

Yes there are different types of feathering as you describe, and different plumage colourations are associated with one or the other.

[Glassfeather]

Wiley,

 

This is the thing about recessive genes, with silver in particular, you could have a loft full of blue and blue cheq cocks, and every one of them could be carrying that dilute gene, therefore having the potential to produce silvers and silver cheqs. Chances are that some will be produced, but it is equally feasible that none may be produced. Point is, as that strain progresses, the recessive is carried along with it, but the gene pool shrinks as the better performers are selected, so all the time there is more chance of the recessives surfacing.  

[jimmy white]

Jimmy,

 

Yes there are different types of feathering as you describe, and different plumage colourations are associated with one or the other.

 

thanks glassfeather for your reply,, quite fascinating ,, it just goes to show there are as many different type of racing pigeons,  as there are  races  i,e what may suit one bird, may not suit another,,,,great stuff    

[Glassfeather]

Very true Jimmy,

 

I think if you could compare the feather texture and density of winning birds from south of the equator and up into the northern hemisphere, you would find considerable variation.

[white logan]

Very true Jimmy,

 

I think if you could compare the feather texture and density of winning birds from south of the equator and up into the northern hemisphere, you would find considerable variation.

 

thats interesting , are you sujesting a "feather variation"nearer the equatorial line ?, i can see your logic as in , the warmer it gets the less need for more feather ,

[Wiley]

 

thats interesting , are you sujesting a "feather variation"nearer the equatorial line ?, i can see your logic as in , the warmer it gets the less need for more feather ,

 

nope im lead to believe near enough all pigeons have exactly the same feather count, remember hearing it in a quiz once, however his on about the texture of feather, such as silky feathering where birds seem like they could slip out of your hand, it makes alot of sense, thinking about it why fanciers in britain try to obtain or feed to achieve this, as britain in comparrison would be very damp ect. be interesting to find views of fanciers from other countries where the weather is much much wormer to say what there feather constitution consists of?

[Glassfeather]

When I handle pigeons from the south of Spain, they have a very different feather texture to UK pigeons. I've had Marcheneros, from Seville, and the feather quality is so loose, very soft, and the texture is "satin" as Jimmy described earlier. These aren't racing pigeons, but they have undergone extensive selection in a very hot climate.

[Wiley]

When I handle pigeons from the south of Spain, they have a very different feather texture to UK pigeons. I've had Marcheneros, from Seville, and the feather quality is so loose, very soft, and the texture is "satin" as Jimmy described earlier. These aren't racing pigeons, but they have undergone extensive selection in a very hot climate.

 

doesnt surpirse me that the feathering was loose, due to pigeons not having sweat glands, so quiet possibly the feathering was bred specifically as a system to allow air flow to be much better in aid maybe a cooling system.

[white logan]

 

nope im lead to believe near enough all pigeons have exactly the same feather count, remember hearing it in a quiz once, however his on about the texture of feather, such as silky feathering where birds seem like they could slip out of your hand, it makes alot of sense, thinking about it why fanciers in britain try to obtain or feed to achieve this, as britain in comparrison would be very damp ect. be interesting to find views of fanciers from other countries where the weather is much much wormer to say what there feather constitution consists of?

 

i suppose that climatic differences could have an effect on feathering , i wonder how our show racer would maintain itself in southern spain ? ,

[jimmy white]

 

thats interesting , are you sujesting a "feather variation"nearer the equatorial line ?, i can see your logic as in , the warmer it gets the less need for more feather ,

 

yes white logan, its very easy to pick up this in a different veiw, but the above posts by wiley and glassfeather have explained very well , pigeons will have the same amount of feathers , but different texture feathering , it would be very easy to pick up on pigeons need less feathers in a hot country , but this is not the case , the difference is the different type of feathering or different texture of feathering that nature has produced in these , say, exotic pigeons , we now try and , in fact" use nature" to selectively breed types of feathering or feather texture for our own uses , be it showing or racing , it is really a very interesting subject for the likes of us in the uk ,  as we  have so many different weathers here [to say the least ] not just one feather texture would suit us here , even theres a big variation in weather,  temp etc from the far north of scotland say, to the far south of england , so even in a small ratio in brittain we would need [or would have ] different textured feathering that would suit the area we live in , but then begs the question our birds would need to race the length of   this difference of weather , which is why, i beleive we will get different textured feathered pigeons , that would suit different types of races , again , selectively breeding for exactly that i,e a different type of pigeon that would win ,in a 5 -600 mile race in a warm, dry  south blow home wind, than a race where we had the opposite kind of weather , so in a way we need birds with different type  feather texture for different type races  or with the feather texture to suit the race ,  

[OLDYELLOW]

In gene terms a silver is a dilute blue be it bar or chequer as in Old yellows bird. You can see the dilution better in the flights. I know racing guys call some of their dilute mealy's silvers as well. As to Wiley's question, It must come from when someone had a champion dilute or something like that who's dilute offspring were virtually guaranteed winners so think it was something else in the genetics of the bird but was visibly detectable because it shared it's place ( sorry don't know the technical jargon for this ) with dilute. Therefore every dilute youngster had this special ( non colour ) trait in that family. So it's not the colour but whatever else was passed on but identifiable by being dilute.

 

my dilute silver is a ditute from red but must of picked a blue gene up from it dam  

[Guest Freebird]

Very true Jimmy,

 

I think if you could compare the feather texture and density of winning birds from south of the equator and up into the northern hemisphere, you would find considerable variation.

Hi Graeme, Isn't this a great thread. Like graeme I have birds of Spanish origen and they sure are silky. The Catalonian Tumbler in my mind is one of the oldest and fundamentaly best breed of pigeon in the world. Bred for thier acrobatic skills competing against falcans and produced in every colour and pattern imaginable. They also look like an athletic pigeon, a sort of tiny racer. They have what is described as grease quills under the wings which when preened apply a glossy coat to the feathers. Now I do not know whether the racers have these quills or not but they must have something similar as this is what you feel when they are in top condition. This is a trait that can be bred for as well. So there is more to this pigeon game than you would think and it may just pay dividends to look outisde the circle of racing for your answers.

 

 

[Glassfeather]

Hi Freebird,

 

Not much is known about the inheritance of grease quills but they appear to be inherited as a simple dominant, also found in Archangels and Gimpels. Interesting that they may provide the necessary "waterproofing".

[pj1001]

In relation to feather quality what I have noticed with some of our silvers is that in the summer their feathers seem to get bleached by the sun and change into a lighter shade of silver.

 

During the winter months when the birds are moulting and there is very little sun the new primary and secondary flights that they grow are a darked shade of silver, almost a dull silver. However in the summer when these birds are out in the sun their dark silver feathers become lighter as if the sun is bleaching them.

 

It is very noticable in birds taht ahve moulted a couple of primary feathers during the summer and most of their other primary feathers in autumn and winter, the flights moulted in the summer months are much lighter in colour.

 

Just my observation in relation to our silvers.

 

PJ

 

 

 

[Glassfeather]

These are probably brown pigeons then, this is a characteristic of brown. Brown and dilute blue appear very similar, but they are genetically different. Brown is a mutation at the colour locus, just as Ash red is a mutation at the colour locus. Dilute blue results from the effect of the dilute modifier in combination with normal blue. I have a solid brown pouter cock which fades in the sunlight, photos below show his plumage in the summer, then after the moult.

 

 

Same pigeon: