parastop

[holmsidelofts]

Thanks for the info IB hopefully i will have info from chevita tomorrow regarding there live vaccine and i will share that with everyone when i get it.

 

Jas

[pigeonscout]

I think that if it was made clear to fanciers that the vaccine does not stop the birds from getting paratyphoid.

They could then treat for it instead of ruling it out as some do because the birds have been vaccinated.

I treat before pairing and then again before racing and yes I treat blind not a good thing to do but guilty all the same.

[ch pied]

Thanks for the info IB hopefully i will have info from chevita tomorrow regarding there live vaccine and i will share that with everyone when i get it.

 

Jas

The , VM number / marketing authorisation number would be helpfull,,,,thankyou

 

 

[pigeonscout]

Just found this dated 2008 if you read 58-59-60 it confirms what I have been saying.

http://aac.asm.org/cgi/reprint/AAC.00575-07v1.pdf

[almeehan]

Interesting thread.... Looking at the figures posted from DEFRA seems over 80% of the cases involved copenhagen strain so it can be argued it is the predominant strain of salmonella in pigeons. The vaccines are therefore targetting the correct cause. I don't think anybody can guarantee 100% effectiveness of their vaccine due to different storage conditions and use of the product, for instance over or underdose of the product or using contaminated needles. So what it comes down to is a good old fashioned cost benefit analysis of using the product. If you decide on balance of probability it is better to vaccinate you should. If not - don't! I do because I consider paratyphoid to be widespread in pigeons but that is just my experience and my opinion.

[Guest IB]

I think that if it was made clear to fanciers that the vaccine does not stop the birds from getting paratyphoid.

They could then treat for it instead of ruling it out as some do because the birds have been vaccinated.

I treat before pairing and then again before racing and yes I treat blind not a good thing to do but guilty all the same.

 

I think its very much Catch-22. If you read 60 - 64 of the link in your previous post, you will see that there is evidence that antibiotic treatment promotes the carrier state. I have already posted previously on that and provided a link to one such work using florfenicol. What I would point out is that this directly contradicts what we have been told about antibiotic treatment clearing 'infection' prior to vaccination. I think anecdotal evidence is available which shows balance of probability is that it does spread the disease, rather than control it, since if it did control it, there wouldn't be as many cases that some like to suggest there are.

[Guest IB]

Interesting thread.... Looking at the figures posted from DEFRA seems over 80% of the cases involved copenhagen strain so it can be argued it is the predominant strain of salmonella in pigeons. The vaccines are therefore targetting the correct cause. I don't think anybody can guarantee 100% effectiveness of their vaccine due to different storage conditions and use of the product, for instance over or underdose of the product or using contaminated needles. So what it comes down to is a good old fashioned cost benefit analysis of using the product. If you decide on balance of probability it is better to vaccinate you should. If not - don't! I do because I consider paratyphoid to be widespread in pigeons but that is just my experience and my opinion.

 

The previous figures relate only to Racing Pigeons. I do not think you can base an assumption like that on part-population. The figures for all pigeons 2005 – 2009 were:-

 

Binza – 1

Kedougou  - 1

Typhimurium

DT2 – 64

DT2a – 4

DT41 – 1

DT46 – 1

DT56 – 2

DT96 – 2

DT99 – 6

DT104 – 3

DT193 – 1

DT208 – 1

4,5,12:I – 3

 

Total 88.

 

There were various issues that I raised with DEFRA and one was the assumption that you’ve just posted that ‘paratyphoid was widespread in pigeons’. I cannot see how 88 cases in the entire pigeon population in England, Wales and Scotland in 5 years can be said to be ‘widespread’. On that one issue, here is the correspondence between myself and DEFRA:-

 

 

From DEFRA 5/1/2010

 

“Pigeons have their own host adapted strains of Salmonella Typhimurium. Examples of these strains (known as phage types) are types DT2 and DT99. The main source of these is endemic infection in pigeon breeding  and lofts of pigeon fanciers and possible transmission through contact with wild birds. Sometimes these strains cause disease and mortality in pigeons….

 

Other general Salmonella strains may also be found but the sources of these are the same as for any other animal – contaminated feed or contact with contaminated environmentâ€

 

To DEFRA 7/1/2010

 

Thank you for your response dated 5th January. My FOI enquiry of 23rd November is part of personal desk research to determine the true picture of salmonella infection within the British Racing Pigeon population. Currently there appears to be a strong belief in some British fanciers that salmonella infection (Paratyphoid) is ‘rife’ here, with some saying every loft is infected. They have not produced evidence to support this.

 

‘Learned Opinion’ normally comes from our Vets, and one American Vet in particular is on record as saying 99% of the World population of Racing pigeons is infected – without producing evidence which supports that.  In my opinion, pigeon fanciers seem too ready to believe without question almost anything they are told.

 

Additionally, general knowledge on salmonella appears sketchy in the pigeon fancier community, and our pigeon Veterinary literature has not kept us up to date, for example, phage-typing, we still tend to think and talk about Salmonella Typhimurium ‘pigeon variant Copenhagen’ as the ‘single’ / only strain that can infect pigeons.

 

Against this background, I’d like clarification on the following points in your letter, which do appear at odds with the Annex figures.

 

1.     Paragraph 2 states ‘pigeons have their own host adapted strains’. Please confirm if DT2 and DT99 are strains of ‘pigeon variant Copenhagen’ described in the pigeon Veterinary and other literature, or are all the Typhimurium DT phage types listed in the Annex strains of ‘pigeon variant Copenhagen’, or are the other Typhimurium DT phage types listed in the Annex ‘other general strains’ as described in paragraph 4?

 

2.     Also in paragraph 2 …. ‘The main source of these (Salmonella Typhimurium host adapted strains) is endemic infection in pigeon breeding and lofts …’ Is DEFRA saying that ‘salmonella infection is ‘rife’ in Britain’s racing pigeons and lofts’? If so, what data / information do you hold to support that view, and can you provide me with a copy? Why are the Annex figures so low in an ‘endemic’ population numbering tens of thousands?

 

From DEFRA 29/1/2010

 

 

Thank you for your further request for information about Salmonella outbreaks in racing pigeons, which we received on 7 January 2010. We have dealt with your request under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 (FOIA).

 

Salmonella Typhimurium DT2, 2a and 99 are phage types that are particularly associated with pigeons. The other strains ('other general strains') listed can be found more commonly in other types of wild birds, farm or companion animals, but can also be acquired by pigeons. Salmonella Typhimurium variant Copenhagen does not relate to the phage type but to a variation in the surface antigens that are used for determining the serotype. The variant Copenhagen lacks the surface antigen 'O5' of the normal full antigenic formula 4,5,12:i:1,2. An individual phage type may contain strains with and without the 'O5' antigen. Strains lacking this antigen are more common in pigeons than in other species.

 

By endemic we mean that the stains may become resident in some pigeon lofts on a long term basis, especially in breeding colonies where infection may be passed from older to juvenile birds. Infection may not always result in clinical disease that is investigated by bacteriological culture and totally asymptomatic carriage of the organism is also possible. There is no evidence that would enable an estimate of the prevalence of infected lofts or individual birds to be made, so a suggestion that 'Salmonella infection is 'rife' in Britain's racing pigeons and lofts' cannot be supported, and Defra has no view on the likely prevalence.

 

 

[adam owen]

im glad i put this thread up ive learnt alot from it cheers all

[almeehan]

IB,

I did base my opinion on the figures which you put up! Even looking at the fuller figures posted it can be seen that the vast majority of cases are still of type Dt2 and DT99. I don't know what size of sample these figures are from, it may be a sample of 1000 or 100000 for all I know. It is possible that I am wrong about the prevalence of salmonella in pigeons, I am not a vet and make no claim to have diagonsed this.

The questions you have asked of DEFRA are excellent and relevant but the answers given indicate that they don't particularly care to find out about the prevalence of salmonella. So unfortunatly pigeon fanciers still have to rely on their own experience in this matter.