Drug resistant Canker

[Guest]

I think the subject has been well-aired here (and rightly so, in my opinion) and widely different viewpoints have been posted.

 

Two 'new' points have been made (1) 'the other person's pigeons are dirty' (my opinion, it always seems to be someone else's fault) and (2) examine my pigeons anytime, they're ok etc.

 

On point 1: I don't believe for a minute that problems of canker infection come from others' birds, they're more likely to be a flare-up of existing colonies in your own. And Slugmonkey says he hasn't seen canker in years - I haven't seen canker ever - and have honestly been puzzled by the prominence given to it... even to the extent of so called 'preventative' treatment.

 

On point 2: 'Compromised immune systems and superbugs' happen at a genetic level and hardly likely to show by just having a look at the birds. Applying a 'Professor White experiment' to test for any resistance your birds' trichomonads display to canker drugs - is about the only way I can think of identifying this problem. I also believe this test would be well beyond most of us.

 

And as I have repeated elsewhere before, I'll post facts [speight posted this thread, but similar reports have been posted by me in 'Canker Treatment'], the act of posting automatically invites comment, and I usually give my own opinion too. What you do in the face of facts (in this case drug resistant canker) is your business and frankly, of no personal interest to me.

[Guest]

 

some information to add about the nature of the disease. The microscopic single-celled organisms, Trichomonas columbae protozoans, that cause canker can only survive for a few minutes once outside the bird. Birds cannot become infected from the loft or immediate enviroment. It is spread between birds, transmitted by saliva or pigeon milk. Saliva cantaminates food and water, adult birds billing and parents feeding their babies are usually how the organisms are transmitted.

Yours in the sport.

Carol

 

The point I was making was that if the birds mix and share facilities - drinkers, grit & mineral hoppers - then there is a likelihood of cross-contamination. These surely form part of the loft environment.

 

Jimmy White also posted elsewhere about trich gaining access through a youngsters unhealed navel and causing infection in the organs. Have read about that but don't understand this particular 'infection trail' (how do they get outside and into the navel?) Follows then that there might be other ways of trich infection spreading that we don't know about?

[MsPigeon]

 

Jimmy White also posted elsewhere about trich gaining access through a youngsters unhealed navel and causing infection in the organs. Have read about that but don't understand this particular 'infection trail' (how do they get outside and into the navel?)

 

regurgitate pigeon milk in the nest

 

 

[Mike Lycett]

Bruno

 

Its the cross contamination that we have to guard against surely?  That's precisely why we treat 2-3 times during a racing season.  Unhealthy pigeons drinking out of the same drinking troughs cause problems

 

Mike

[Mike Lycett]

Rose

 

Yes, I'd love transporters to carry it - but they don;t.  Our drinkers are sterilised every week on a Friday night/saturday morning.

 

Mike

[Guest]

Think your right there Mike about cross contamination and although im not into treating my birds i can see why you do besides bad management I think the drinkers are the biggest problems for anyone doesnt matter how healthy your birds are if the are unlucky enough to be in the basket with birds that are not healthy and having to share the same drinkers you can bet your life they will pick something up would something like milton in the waters be of any help?

 

Working with a committee designing a new transporter for our Fed. One of the issues  was cross contamination and committee decided NOT to have a central watering system, and stick to individual drinkers on the baskets. Plastic rather than metal for tank, piping & gun for effective & safe disinfecting of the system. Disnfectants 'corrode' metal.

 

Have made the point that same principal surely applies to water on individual baskets too???  Hoping to progress that one further...... and in that respect have been on the lookout for a safe and effective water sanitation system and it's Jimmy White (again  ;D ) what provided a possible answer - Vanodine 18. Its DEFRA approved, and the only one which categorically states that it can be used in the drinking water. It has another attraction too in that it is coloured, a built-in 'Still working' safeguard. The colour 'still showing' is a sign that its still effective. Soon as it loses its colour, ditch it.

 

 

We've also been through Milton & Virkon, Rose.  ;D   ;D    ;D

 

 

Milton when exposed to any protein turns to salt. Saliva, feathers, bloom, your fingers, etc are all 'proteins'. Milton already contains 38% salt, so the birds are getting a nice mouthful of salty water to drink. Wouldn't think that was the ideal start to a 600 mile fly!!!  

 

Virkon can be used to disinfect water systems through a header tank. Drinking water systems don't have a header tank, the product advertising is all about external uses, so its obvious this one isn't meant for drinking.

 

So Vanodine 18 is the only one that fits the bill.... may be others, but still to hear about them.

[Mike Lycett]

Bruno

 

In the Midlands we've used Aqua-Guard from Brian Wall before.   Water-sanitiser & the birds take it on board regularly.  Worth investigating?

 

Mike

[jimmy white]

every one to there own in, 19 84 i won 13 out of a possible 17 races also winning prizes in fed and national [won supreme average in fed]most trophies in club, the club at that time had about 36 members sending over 700 birds some weeks the fed would be approx 4000 birds, the only thing the birds had that year was garlic in the water, vits on a wed.and that was it.   p,s the garlic was about 15 p and the vits about 3 pounds,oh they got half milk and half water on arrival,,, but that was 1984.

and that was 60 to 604 miles

[jimmy white]

i still defend milton where there are crop problems

[schouwman71]

P.L.G is a good product as well it disinfects the water against all viruses,including canker cocci its made by Norvet and would recomend it if you fly a lage team.

[MsPigeon]

 

So Vanodine 18 is the only one that fits the bill.... may be others, but still to hear about them.

What a great idea Bruno, I just googled "Vanodine 18" does sound great for protecting our race birds.

I'm going to suggest this at our next club meeting. We already voted in to use seperate shipping crates for each flyer when fisible. But V 18 would be a good alternative when we couldn't.

Carol

 

[Guest]

Bruno

 

Its the cross contamination that we have to guard against surely?  That's precisely why we treat 2-3 times during a racing season.  Unhealthy pigeons drinking out of the same drinking troughs cause problems

 

Mike

 

 

I think its an issue seperate to the one we were discussing. Mike.

 

As you have probably picked up, I'm relatively recent into pigeons and one of the things the pigeon press often talked about was fanciers using too many antibiotics. Thought that a load of tosh ... fanciers using antibiotics? .... until I had my eyes opened by some of the posts on Pigeonbasics. Discovered that MANY of the products recommended here ARE antibiotics, although not well-advertised as such.

 

Within this thread, the regular use of antibiotics has also been linked to winning systems with inferences (1) MUST DOSE TO WIN and (2) WON'T STOP DOSING ... even in the face of the evidence in the originating article which Speight posted.

 

If I could also refer back to Dr Tom Pennycott's article posted under 'canker treatment' which describes what happened in Scotland to game poultry keepers when Emtryl was withdrawn ... the incidence of canker declined in the first year of limited use .... which was the EXACT opposite of what these keepers expected, and we're talking about 25 million birds here.

 

Under the existing 'voluntary' code of conduct, should drug resistance continue apace, would reckon further products would need withdrawn, leaving the sport with major problems, in this case drug-restistant canker and sod-all effective treatment. Then what? Thats why I believe its a very important issue and one well worth a good airing.

 

  

 

 

[Guest]

Bruno

 

In the Midlands we've used Aqua-Guard from Brian Wall before.   Water-sanitiser & the birds take it on board regularly.  Worth investigating?

 

Mike

 

 

Not on the list of approved disinfectants, Mike ,, refer link below.

 

 

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2005/20051908.htm

 

 

Under the proposed Cleaning & Disnfecting Order, the baskets & transporters need to be disinfected within 24 hours of use ... from 2007?   But much of that same requirement has been thrown at us a year early .... for 2006 race season ... under the avian flu racing license regime. As its an ORDER, reckon same applies ... needs to be an approved disinfectant thats used.

 

 

We used Virkon for the baskets last year. Fitted the bill as it could be used for the transporter too. But we weren't considering water sanitation then. In interests of costs & efficiency, one disnfectant that does all that is required seems to be needed.  I've found one, but as I said before, there's bound to be others, just not 'heard' of them. A job for our 'missing' biosecurity expert, Gary, (preston powerblaster) methinks.

 

 

 

 

 

[Mike Lycett]

Might not be approved, but its good all the same.

 

As for the subject having a good airing, i've no problems with that at all.   I'm just speaking from 35 years experience.

 

Mike

[jimmy white]

i reckon aqua gaurd would be good for sterilizing the water in he transporters, but i know there would be people against it as it contains chlorine, but as far as i can see its been tried and tested, , virkon s would be another one along with vanodine, these are both iodine based, we used to get aquas iodine from the chemist years ago, as cheap as chips, or milton ;D ;D ;D

[Guest]

I agree with Mike and Jimmy, Aquaguard is a superb product I use it 4 times a week for the youngbirds and I certainly dont have any problems with YBS or anything else for that matter.

[Guest]

Got a bottle of Vanodine 18 out of curiosity. £5.99 for 500ml, dilute at 3ml approx per gallon, so if used in the kind of volumes that are likely on a transporter, (ours will have a 50 gallon tank of drinking water) it works out pretty cheap @ £6 for 166 gallons, = £2 per trip.  (Virkon is £1.60 for 5 gallons.)

 

Label states that product is 'for veterinary use only'. Iodine complex disinfectant for sterilisation of drinking water. Kills salmonella & e coli when used as directed.

 

Active solutions are amber to yellow. Replace when colour fades.

 

pretty nasty warning: concentrated vanodine 18 is irritant to skin & eyes - avoid contact or use suitable gloves etc. Rinse splashes off. If swallowed drink plenty of fluid & seek medical attention at once. Keep bottle closed and away from aluminium & alloys. Contains Sulphuric and Phosphoric Acids. KEEP OUT OF CHILDREN'S REACH.

 

 

[jimmy white]

glad your happy with the vanodine, it is great stuff, but still feel your putting the wrong message over the milton, you were saying above that the dilution of vanodine is 3ml to a gallon and on your post a bit earlier you were saying milton has 38 pc salt but lets face it   its not if its diluted the proper way   would you drink a mouthfull of vanodine out the bottle,,,no,, its the same as milton its diluted to purify the water, as you will see if you look in to milton ,the hill walkers cn take stream water and put the right dosage of milton in it , to make the water safe to drink.,,,as far as the proper dilution of   milton would contain a lot less salt than your ordinary black minerals or pickstones , it would amount to near enough nil       " DILUTED"   :)

[jimmy white]

  

 

 

We've also been through Milton & Virkon, Rose.  ;D   ;D    ;D

 

 

Milton when exposed to any protein turns to salt. Saliva, feathers, bloom, your fingers, etc are all 'proteins'. Milton already contains 38% salt, so the birds are getting a nice mouthful of salty water to drink. Wouldn't think that was the ideal start to a 600 mile fly!!!  

  

 

  SEE POST ABOVE     DOC WHITE :)

[MsPigeon]

What about a few drops of bleach Doc White?

[jimmy white]

nothing wrong with a few drops of bleach, most of us give our birds kilpatricks iodised minerals , but a lot of fanciers dont know that,that contains bleach [ chlorine] as do many more products

[Guest]

Its a very complex subject.      (understatement of the year).    ;D

 

UK drinking water is already Chlorinated, to sterilise it,  and there is also a residue left in the water itself. Pour a glass of water and the 'bubbles & fizz' is the excess Chlorine turning into a gas and 'evaporating' into the air. UK Water Authorities advise you to let the glass of water settle out BEFORE you drink it, and World Health Organisation also consider Chlorine has dangers for health, world-wide.

 

Milton is a Chlorine disinfectant used to sterilise drinking equipment. It is used extensively in babycare. IT MUST BE GOOD AT THIS JOB .. we know how strict things are where baby products are concerned. The baby's bottles etc are first cleaned , rinsed then immersed in a Milton bath, to sterilise them. After sterilisation, they are thoroughly rinsed in water BEFORE being used again to feed the baby.

 

But that is as far as Milton goes. It CANNOT sterilise drinking water because it has an inbuilt 'infant safeguard' ... Milton is neutralised on contact by ANY protein.

 

In babycare, it states that if the baby accidently swallows Milton solution, the salty solution is likely to make the baby sick. And no harm can come to the baby as protein neutralises Milton (any protein turns sodium hypochlorite into sodium chlorate, i.e. it turns the Chlorine in Milton into salt. Milton already contains 38% sodium chlorate, ie common table salt).

 

Proteins are all around us: saliva,  lips, tongue, throat, skin (fingers, hair & nails), feathers, droppings, dust, bloom, milk, etc ... all contain proteins.  

 

I agree Milton would be good for sterilising the loft drinkers ... but only AFTER the drinkers had been thoroughly cleaned. Sticking them into a Milton bath straight from the loft would probably just neutralise the Milton.

 

My main 'warning' is : Milton cannot be used to sterilise the drinking water. The big danger is that you think you've prevented infection spreading via the drinking water because you've Milton in it ... consider carefully what the maker's say about their own product  ... a speck of dust, or even the first pigeon to drink, would neutralise it ... so Milton just cannot be relied upon to keep the birds' drinking water safe.

 

 

 

[perk]

bleach turns to salt after it,s germ action has finished (on the side of the  bottle) different action to milton

[jimmy white]

    

 

"But that is as far as Milton goes. It CANNOT sterilise drinking water because it has an inbuilt 'infant safeguard' ... Milton is neutralised on contact by ANY protein." " bruno "

 

from milton themselves,,,IF YOUR UNSURE ABOUT YOUR DRINKING WATER,PARTICULARLY , WHEN OUT AND ABOUT, ADD A TEASPOON OF MILTON TO 8 PTS OF WATER, LEAVE FOR ABOUT 30 MINS AND IT WILL BE SAFE TO MIX WITH YOUR BABY FOODS,,

 

 

 

  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

    

 

"But that is as far as Milton goes. It CANNOT sterilise drinking water because it has an inbuilt 'infant safeguard' ... Milton is neutralised on contact by ANY protein."

 

  

from milton themselves,,,IF YOUR UNSURE ABOUT YOUR DRINKING WATER,PARTICULARLY , WHEN OUT AND ABOUT, ADD A TEASPOON OF MILTON TO 8 PTS OF WATER, LEAVE FOR ABOUT 30 MINS AND IT WILL BE SAFE TO MIX WITH YOUR BABY FOODS,,

 

 

 

Not what I, or in my opinion the makers meant Jimmy. My meaning is made crystal clear in the last paragraph of my previous post:

 

My main 'warning' is : Milton cannot be used to sterilise the drinking water. The big danger is that you think you've prevented infection spreading via the drinking water because you've Milton in it ... consider carefully what the maker's say about their own product ... a speck of dust, or even the first pigeon to drink, would neutralise it ... so Milton just cannot be relied upon to keep the birds' drinking water safe.

 

 

On your quote from the makers website, Jimmy, I think it has to be read strictly within the context of Mother & Baby - the babycare regime. Granted the makers say you can take a gallon of 'suspect' drinking water, sterilise it by putting Milton in it and so make it safe for mixing up the baby's feeds. But you don't then leave the sterilised water or the feeds exposed to the elements, you use it as soon as its ready to make up the bottles and you stick these in a fridge - you still need to keep everything germ-free.

 

Even a Milton bath isn't exposed to the elements, the lid is closed to keep everything inside germ-free.

 

A drinker in a loft IS exposed to the elements. Milton in the drinker cannot stop the PREVIOUSLY sterilised drinking water becoming re-contaminated.

 

 

Jimmy and I have different views on Milton,   ;D  (in case you hadn't guessed)  :-/  but it is again left to everyone to look at all the information and decide for themselves. Information on Milton is avialable on the makers website, and our extracts are taken from the Mother & Baby section ...

 

http://www.milton-tm.com/motherandbaby/miltonmethod.htm

 

   ....no 'wimmin of child-bearing age' to browse this website in case you start gettin they funny notions ....          :K)