carl Posted January 21, 2006 Report Posted January 21, 2006 You wouldnt no they were ill untill they have gone. snowy i would tell you that if you were joining my club, so you dont beat me
snowy Posted January 21, 2006 Report Posted January 21, 2006 The poll i did on the forum who treats before pairing up canker 15 treated cocci 13 treated worms 13 treated respiratory 11 treated paratyphoid 6 treated how many didnt treat?
snowy Posted January 21, 2006 Report Posted January 21, 2006 You wouldnt no they were ill untill they have gone. i would notice if any bird was off colour, if not me, westy would tell me, as young westy is up in loft (24x7) & notices that one of the feathers of a bird has fallen out, the slightest querey & westy is on the case. i think its called good loft management & love for the birds...
snowy Posted January 21, 2006 Report Posted January 21, 2006 You wouldnt no they were ill untill they have gone. snowy i would tell you that if you were joining my club, so you dont beat me not all flyers are jealous & selfish, some good flyers just want to have fun & get this sport open to as many new flyers as possible, & get some friendly healthy competition.
snowy Posted January 21, 2006 Report Posted January 21, 2006 i rest my case you aint throwing in the white towel yet?????? oh well just as it was getting fun ;D
snowy Posted January 21, 2006 Report Posted January 21, 2006 carl, the secretary of the club myself & westy are joining never treats his birds, unless there is an outbreak in his loft, & has told me in the 40 plus years he has been flying he has treated twice, came 2nd in club & fed 2005 & the flyer who came first in 2005 lives 15 minites from me & also never treats unless there is an outbreak, but told me he treated in 2004. regards the secretary was the person to introduce me to racing, & he now pops up every weekend to have a chat, & has become a good friend with loaads of healthy advice
Guest Posted January 21, 2006 Report Posted January 21, 2006 Trichomonas is becoming resistant Evaluation of the resistance The results of the study show clearly that eight strains had become resistant to the normal dosage of ronidazole used for treatment. It follows that certain pigeons from the lofts where the strains were studied are carriers of a very resistant strain which it is impossible to eradicate with the usual treatment. Even more serious is the fact that 45% of the strains studied were close to the level of resistance to ronidazole and therefore risk becoming resistant in the near future. The study also showed that there is a relationship between the frequency of treatments carried out by the fancier and the reduction of sensitivity to ronidazole. Let us treat our pigeons efficiently Some writers consider that this method of single dose treatment could play a part in the development of the phenomenon of resistance, as a result of an incomplete curative action (Franssen and Lumeij, 1992). Treatment repeated every three weeks, as is advised by certain fanciers, which is often carried out with low doses and over excessively short periods of time (one or two days), has certainly assisted the development of this situation. To sum up, many pigeon fanciers must change their habits and suppress their desire to give preventative medication. A course of treatment for trichomoniasis must last for at least five to seven days and be of a sufficient dosage. This treatment must be reserved primarily for pigeons which show symptoms or which have poor sporting performance. In order to encourage immunisation (resistance to the disease) in the pigeons, simply being a carrier of trichomonas should no longer be automatically associated with systematic treatment, except during the incubation period, in order to prevent infection of the squabs, which are more sensitive than adult pigeons. Blind booster treatments for a day or two after returning from a race should no longer be practised if we wish to avoid increasing the resistance to trichomonas to imidazoles, which would make the treatment of this parasitic disease more problematical. The quote highlights the problem so called preventative treatments cause. Not my opinion, but concluded from scientific research on pigeons, fanciers and canker organisms. Very few canker strains cause the bird any problem. Which particular one are YOU treating against, and what ARE you using, Flagyl for example, designed for humans that has the known side-effect of making those humans as sick as pigs ... so what does it do to the pigeon 'during the racing season' ??? If you relate this to the other studies posted under 'canker treatment' you will see that pigeons when exposed to mild forms develop natural immunity to the more virulent type. So the post on 'inability to withstand infection from other birds in the basket' clearly isn't aware of that fact. Speight's post quite clearly shows that any fancier treating a healthy pigeon with medicine is misusing that medicine, and causing long term problems for the bird, and the fancy.
Guest Posted January 21, 2006 Report Posted January 21, 2006 Bruno your forgetting one thing,your birds might be healthy and in good condition,your loft may be 100% in the hygiene department, BUT when you place them in the baskets with other birds that are not healthy,then what happens,your birds will fail big time,theres no way they can be super resistant towards these diseases.Im only a novice myself but know to win races birds need to be super healthy.Having a strict hygeine regime is not enough.I have never misused any medication, only fix something that needs fixing just my opinion mate I think you confuse super health with super fitness. I'm healthy, but I won't be climbing Mount Everest for a while, though some of the braes around here sure feel like it. Humble opinion: need basic good health first, before you can develop super fitness on top of it. If your health is based on medication, I don't advise you to try Mount Everest either.
carl Posted January 21, 2006 Report Posted January 21, 2006 I dont confuse anything,you cant have super fitness UNLESS you have super health,you wont have super health putting your birds in baskets with unhealthy birds,disease spreads no matter what.Are you telling me by letting your birds build up immunity will stop them catching something from a unhealthy bird in the basket.
carl Posted January 21, 2006 Report Posted January 21, 2006 not all flyers are jealous & selfish, some good flyers just want to have fun & get this sport open to as many new flyers as possible, & get some friendly healthy competition. Snowy i didnt say anyone was jealous or selfish.I want to have fun and get the sport open BUT i also want to win,win,win,that may be the difference eh.
jimmy white Posted January 21, 2006 Report Posted January 21, 2006 nowadays we seem to be breeding a strain of birds with no constitution at all, by treating for this that and the other, yes treat if you have to treat, but ill bet youll find the best birds with the strongest constitution never get ill
Silverdale Lofts Posted January 21, 2006 Report Posted January 21, 2006 Interesting reading http://www.ifpigeon.com/dmvweir.html
carl Posted January 21, 2006 Report Posted January 21, 2006 Jimmy do most birds get ill before they are treated,no mate,but your spot on there,we are breading a strain of birds with no constitution. Jimmy you have a excellent record in the sport (and still do),did you treat your birds or not.?.
carl Posted January 21, 2006 Report Posted January 21, 2006 SILVERDALE heres one for you im sure you will like http://www.auspigeonco.com.au/health/health_program2.html bruno maybe you should read this
jimmy white Posted January 21, 2006 Report Posted January 21, 2006 my reply was in a previous post [ post 7] funnily enough was the same reply on the previous web site healthy pigeons win races part 3 [silverwings post]
jimmy white Posted January 22, 2006 Report Posted January 22, 2006 ;D ;D ;D posts seem to be getting a little heated, lets keep it as a good debate, we all learn something , and it wouldnt be natural if we all had the same opinions ;D ;D ;D cheers all :)
Guest Posted January 22, 2006 Report Posted January 22, 2006 SILVERDALE heres one for you im sure you will like http://www.auspigeonco.com.au/health/health_program2.html bruno maybe you should read this Seen the article and noted that it comes from a vet running a pigeon specifics company. I'm also surprised that he shifts from 'absolutely no medication for young birds to build their natural immunity' to 'treat during racing to prevent illness' : Natural immunity prevents microbes getting a foothold and illness developing!!!! The other article harks back to 1990's and is outdated medical thinking. In 2006, current thinking on tackling possible bacterial infections is NOT through the use of medicine (antibiotics) but through strict hygiene and bolstering natural immunity ... using probiotics instead of antibiotics, so I'd rather use natural live yoghurt during the racing season than any medication. It also seems to have escaped your attention that I have my own preventative system, based first and foremost on hygiene (both articles posted emphasised that, yet you are quick to dismiss it) and secondly GARLIC, purely as a backup, which tackles everything that has been mentioned in this thread and MORE. It is a herb, completely natural and the only published side effect is that pregnant women shouldn't take it as it may cause early contractions... not really relevant in pigeons, whereas the side effects in for example Canker, Cocci and worm treatment medicines ARE very relevant including tiredness, feeling sick and gut wall damage. If you refer to my last post in 'Garlic Raw' you will see a scientific research paper showing all the organisms garlic has been proved effective against. So I simply restate that my birds ARE healthy, and their health is maintained in a totally natural way. I'm 15 months into that regime now, no illness, off-colour, weird droppings, nothing - just what I'd expect from birds with a 1st class constitution. And having got that bit right, I'm now paying more attention on how to get my birds race management right.
Guest Posted January 22, 2006 Report Posted January 22, 2006 The poll i did on the forum who treats before pairing up canker 15 treated cocci 13 treated worms 13 treated respiratory 11 treated paratyphoid 6 treated i rest my case It seems to have escaped your notice that there are 450 members on this forum AND you didn't include 'no I don't treat' as an option - another sign of the assumption you have made, and also implied within the poll design, that most fanciers treat preventatively. The poll clearly shows that from the 450 members eligible to vote, only a maximum of 15 members treat preventatively, so it appears that this practice is not nearly as common as you would lead us to believe.
Silverdale Lofts Posted January 22, 2006 Report Posted January 22, 2006 maybe the 15 members who voted win races bruno
Silverdale Lofts Posted January 22, 2006 Report Posted January 22, 2006 Chris Gordon who topped the national this year makes a good point regarding garlic etc read about the use of the microscope in the write up. http://www.elimarpigeons.com/Gordon.htm
carl Posted January 22, 2006 Report Posted January 22, 2006 Seen the article and noted that it comes from a vet running a pigeon specifics company. I'm also surprised that he shifts from 'absolutely no medication for young birds to build their natural immunity' to 'treat during racing to prevent illness' : Natural immunity prevents microbes getting a foothold and illness developing!!!! The other article harks back to 1990's and is outdated medical thinking. In 2006, current thinking on tackling possible bacterial infections is NOT through the use of medicine (antibiotics) but through strict hygiene and bolstering natural immunity ... using probiotics instead of antibiotics, so I'd rather use natural live yoghurt during the racing season than any medication. It also seems to have escaped your attention that I have my own preventative system, based first and foremost on hygiene (both articles posted emphasised that, yet you are quick to dismiss it) and secondly GARLIC, purely as a backup, which tackles everything that has been mentioned in this thread and MORE. It is a herb, completely natural and the only published side effect is that pregnant women shouldn't take it as it may cause early contractions... not really relevant in pigeons, whereas the side effects in for example Canker, Cocci and worm treatment medicines ARE very relevant including tiredness, feeling sick and gut wall damage. If you refer to my last post in 'Garlic Raw' you will see a scientific research paper showing all the organisms garlic has been proved effective against. So I simply restate that my birds ARE healthy, and their health is maintained in a totally natural way. I'm 15 months into that regime now, no illness, off-colour, weird droppings, nothing - just what I'd expect from birds with a 1st class constitution. And having got that bit right, I'm now paying more attention on how to get my birds race management right. Ok bruno your birds are healthy but what about when they come in contact with unhealthy birds in the basket,are you telling me that they wont catch nothing from a unhealthy bird because you have a good health regieme and you feed them garlic. I know that there is a downside to treating birds in the long run. Bruno i respect your posts 100% so dont think im having a go. great topic
snowy Posted January 22, 2006 Report Posted January 22, 2006 Chris Gordon who topped the national this year makes a good point regarding garlic etc read about the use of the microscope in the write up. http://www.elimarpigeons.com/Gordon.htm we are all learning alot from all the posts i also read alot from books & other websites regarding racing & pigeons, but its not saying that pigeons that are not treated dont win races or are going to get a disease from the basket (regarding races). i dont think its getting heated, just different views from peoples different knowledge, its all a very healthy debate just like my pigeons, very healthy, guess what silverdale got for christmas?? a microscope. lol only joking mate. ;D
Silverdale Lofts Posted January 22, 2006 Report Posted January 22, 2006 Lol snowy all i got for xmas was a sun tan in Tenerife ive had the microscope quite a few years also agree with your post i dont think its getting heated just different views.
MsPigeon Posted January 22, 2006 Report Posted January 22, 2006 Right on Carl!!!! It sounds exactly like what I have been reading in Dr Colin Walkers's book "The Flying Vet's Pigeon Health Management" Out of 12 top winning flyers ihe nterviewed 11 of the 12 regularly use anti canker meds and 10 regularly treat for respiratory infection. 5 of the 12 regularly use probiotics and 2 use apple cider vinegar. 4 lofts regularly treat for coccidia and 2 treat for coccidia only if dectected by microscope. 6 regularly worm before and or durring season and others treated only if microscope detected. 6 used multivitamins regularly and four use pink mineral grit. 5 lofts had samples reglarly tested or had own microscope and 7 treateded as a matter of routine. 2 lofts did not provide grit or any calcium supplement durring the entire season. One loft used no medication apart from worming before the season.
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