Lemon juice

[Peckedhen]

So, I've now read to put garlic in the water, cider vinegar in the water, live yogurt on the food and also lemon juice on the food.  What is the lemon jiuce for and how often please?

[Guest]

Hi peckedhen. Pulled off web:

 

"Considered by Romans as an antidote for many poisons, Lemons are very rich in minerals and vitamins - including B1, B2, B3, Carotene (pro-vitamin A) and vitamin C -and was used specifically for scurvy on English ships at sea. Lemons have anti-bacterial, anti-inflammatory, anti-viral, and anti-histamine properties, help tone the heart and blood vessels, can improve circulation in the peripherals, and make a useful stimulant for the liver."

 

The only use that I have heard lemon juice put to was as a coating on the feed to get Brewers yeast to stick to it.

 

I think you may be falling into a trap.   Normally, I would suggest all your birds need get is a good mixture, fresh water daily, grit and minerals. All of the other stuff you mentioned is optional, although, personally, I have a garlic bulb about the house, with a clove in the drinker at most twice a week.

 

Keep it simple.  

 

 

[Peckedhen]

Thanks Bruno - yet again.

[Guest slugmonkey]

I have always wondered if the acidity and astringent qualities of lemon juice will kill the bacteria in brewers yeast ? I use red cell or some vegetable oil to administer the yeast

[jimmy white]

question i would like to know ? can pigeons store vit   c   i had heard some time ago that pigeons couldnt store vit c,,but to be honest , i dont know   maybe some forum members  can help    jimmy

[speedbird]

yeah slug id be interested in that i use to use lemmon juice with brewers yeast

[Guest]

Slug & Speed: Can I take the question further?  

 

(1) Why use something as astringent and acidic as cider acid vinegar in the birds water at all?

 

(2) Why use brewers AND cider acid vinegar when Brewers is 'just' vitamin B and 'cav' already does this job?

 

 

[Guest shadow]

All pigeons need extra vitamins over and above what they get from their corn because a pigeon only digests what it needs at that time , any excess is past straight through their system. they do not store any extra in their bodys Every body has a system how they wish to administer the extra to the birds I use lemon juice in preferance, to any type of oils as I find that the feeding troughs etc .  get covered in oil and need cleaning daily to stop the oil going rancid more so in the summer than in the colder, and if made of wood take to long to dry

 

fly hard fly fair

[Guest]

Two interesting points, Shadow.    

 

Used to coat the feed in a multi-oil and I know what you mean by the mess it leaves,  a job for a cloth & virkon spray.  >

 

May I ask though how you arrive at the need for EXTRA vitamins when as you say the bird gets what it needs from the feed ??) If the bird only takes what it needs from normal feed what purpose does feeding additional vitamins do - surely that will go straight through the bird too?   :-/

 

Do any of you take a vitamin supplement yourself?  ;D

[Guest]

Jimmy, your question on Vit C:

 

Wim Peters, Fit to Win (1) page 287:

 

Pigeon manufactures Vit C in its body.  

 

Interesting enough, but also goes on to say bird also manufactures Vit D.   :'(

 

Now if youz dive across to 'Health: Bird can't feel its feet', Mistifire found a web article on the parathyroid gland not doing its thing. And the remedy? Vitamin D.

 

er... WP says the body manufactures vitamin D.    :B  

 

Close one door and another is sure to open.  ;D

[Guest speckled]

:-/ All these vits,well lets start. VIT C= Absordic Acid,very extremely valubale vit  :-/s it play a part,in so many body fuctions. :-/ maintaining & reaparing the body tissue,strenthening blood vessels,& absorbing Calcium in order,to assist strong bones.also maintains the resistance to infection.& lowers the blood level& it aids the absorption of Iron from food, so.that it  can  be utilized by the body. Finally Vit C is a water soluble,the body is unable to store it. :-/ So in comes,"Brewers Yeast",an exellent sourse of VIT B particulary Vit  B1,(thaimine), B2,(riboflavin),B3 (niacin).There are also traces of Vit B6 (pyridoxine),pantotentic acis, frolic acid,biotin, plus VIT A & C.Brewers yeast provides many important minerial. Phosphorus, Potassium.Magnesuim, Calcuim,Selenuim,Copper,Soduim,& Chromuim.whitch is important for energy & especially,Iron.Additionally "Brewers Yeast" contains a good amout of protien.Finally its a good "Anti Pollution" as it gets rid of the body toxins.VIT D is the Joker of the Vits, because unlike other VITS, We can to some extent prodouce  it.The sun rays for instanceThis Vit  helps to build healthy bones.it helps the absorbtion from the Intestinal Wall & maintain the correct level in the blood.It does this with working with two minerals,Calcuim & Phosphorus. Could keep going but i mix the lemon juice on the corn with brewers yeast.So dont think any important Vits are losted. :-/  Might be wrong but   & no i dont take Vit tabs,A healthy Speckled  :K) hard work that was, must have read to many of jimmy's & Brunos post.ah

[jimmy white]

my goodness me , that was some article on vits  [ and i hate to admit it a female at that :) :)only kidding. i think you have done an exellent job speckled, and obviously, put a lot of work in to it. only problem i have now ,is my earlier question, do pigeons store vit c, according to speckled, she has pointed out that  vit c cant be stored, but as wim peters says [exellant book]   they manufacture it themselves. im left a wee bit confused now [ easy for me]as to why we give them vit c,. if they cant store it i understand why we give them it, but if they manufacture it themselves  , surely that means we dont have to give them it att all, im left a wee bit puzzled, one thing i can say is that i used to give pure lemon juice mixed in with yeast soaked in depurative, dried and given to the birds on return from a hard flight plus electrolytes[ or rehydration salts as speckled calls it] i found that by using this system the birds definately  recovered quicker . would my conclusion be  that they cant store it, but manufacture it, but during a race  they cannot manufacture it as quick as they are using it up, therefor thats why we give them vit c as part of their recovery,   only a thought

[Guest]

Agree with you Jimmy, a good piece of work, Speckled.  

 

I think for me anyway, what Speckled has shown is that the way 'things' work together is a wee bit complicated and perhaps we fanciers try to oversimplify things a bit too much and end up making the whole thing even more complicated. (How's that for Irishspeak?  ;D)

 

As you confirm Speckled, only the very young and the very old (Like JW  ;D) need vitamin supplements and the rest of us seem healthy enough getting what we need from a balanced diet, fresh air and (some) exercise.

 

I've no real idea if vitamins play a part in race recovery. The recovery salts contain A & B12, (no C) but I'm not all that sure that its not a sales gimmick (even although its free  ;D ) as me Weetabix is fortified with vitamin & iron and my wife's hair shampoo contains 'extracts of grape' and citric acid (Vits ACD?). And then there's the hair stuff containing amino acids advertised on TV  etc...    

 

[Guest Doostalker]

Really fascinated by all the postings and enjoyed reading them.

 

Couple of points which might clarify some aspects of vitamin supplementation....or even make it more confused   :D

 

Vit C:- Bruno is spot on quoting Wim Peters saying that birds manufacture enough for their needs. He also says supplementation is controversial. However he then goes on to say "there is some indication that requirements are increased during stress and supplementation of the diet does no harm." Still doesn't say if the birds can store Vit C Jimmy, but I would err on the side of safety and give it during stress periods such as breeding, racing and moulting. If it does no harm...why not give it.

 

Wait a Minute!!!!

Just went back and read Speckled's excellent posting and from memory I think she is spot on re water soluble vits not being able to be stored by the body. I remember in my studies (about a century ago) that this was why scurvy was common in the old days especially in the Navy. The body couldn't store Vit C and it had to be given to the sailors in limes etc....that's where the Americans get the term "Limeys" from. Well done Speckled!! ;D

 

Vit D:- Bruno is right re the fact that the body creates Vit D but it needs the addition of ultra violet from sunlight to do this. If you have glass in the windows of your stock loft then the UV will be absorbed by the glass. That is why an aviary is so important for stock birds. I personally think that you need to give Vit D if you have a captive stock loft and also if you start pairing early in December in Scotland when daylight, let alone sun is almost totally absent. Nor will I get much sitting around this computer all the time....must get out more!!! :

 

The active part of the vitamin is D3, but it is fairly fragile and loses its value in direct exposure to light and air. This means that you should always feed it fresh. Cod Liver oil is a good source and that is why Cod Liver oil is always in dark bottles.

Colin Walker, the Flying Vet says in his book that non stressed birds on a complete diet including a wide variety of grains " may receive little benefit from an additional multivitamin supplement." But you look at this and say that if the birds are being stressed then they should get supplementation.

 

One thing he also says though is that "Multivitamin supplements developed for use in other species should not be adapted for use in pigeons as their requirements are specific. Birds require higher levels of Vitamin B and iodine, for example, than mammals, but produce their own Vitamin C." So that means you can't give them some of the capsules you take Jimmy White OK :D

 

Personally, I use a supplement, on the basis that they will do no harm, and if needed will do a lot of good. But as I always say....for every fancier there is a management system. You listen and learn and then use what you think is good for you and your birds.

[Guest]

I found what you had to say on Vitamins very interesting, Doostalker.    Not least of all the well made point (missed by most) that some need water while others need oil 'to do their thing'. Often wondered about that with the multi-vit supplements that go in the drinker.  ;D

 

While I agree with you about everyone having their own management system, I am not sure that I agree that you should do what you THINK is best for the bird. Maybe more harm than good could be done working that way, and I always prefer checking things out and KNOW what I am doing is for the best - as far as that is possible of course.  

 

On the bit about giving supplements can do no harm, I remember hearing otherwise earlier in the year, and although I cannot find a website specifically on animals or birds, this site concerns human vitamin overdose and spells out clearly the dangers of adding more than the body needs:

 

http://www.healthatoz.com/healthatoz/Atoz/ency/vitamin_toxicity.jsp

 

 

 

 

[Guest Doostalker]

Agree with you Bruno about knowing what is right. I used the term "think" because experience has taught me that just when you "think" you "know" what is right, along comes another expert who will make you "think" again.  

 

However, if you get the same info from a variety of sources, and Colin Walker and Wim Peters seem to totally agree on this, it would be safe to assume that "Know" would be more appropriate to use.  

[jimmy white]

ill shock every one this time and i agree with all the interesting posts above,  ;D ;D ;D

only one thing  [sorry terry ,   seven seas c. l. o.    is in clear glass bottles,but to be fair i think it should be in dark bottles   :) ]  and  because we get vit d from the sun., i should think the chemists would sell a fair bit of c l o  this year.   i take a mouthfull, [sorry thats too much] i meant to say a ladel full every day,[ ;D thats less ;D ] for medical reasons, great article kicked off with speckled.  top marks.

[Guest]

Well, to be fair to Doostalker, every cod liver oil connasure kens fine that it should be took with dark glasses oan.    8)

 

One other (serious) point about overdose though... vitamins and minerals... is the number of 'combined products' on the market. I knew about pink minerals containing vitamins, but I was well and truly caught out by (Mr Pigeon?) black minerals which according to the label - also contained vitamins.  Many products of course don't even tell you what is in them.

 

Hence my reluctance to use any supplements - I'd need some sort of computer program to work out 'what' and 'how much' each bird was being given.  

[Guest Doostalker]

Bruno I take your point about inadvertant overdose because we don't really know what certain products really contain.

 

Maybe there is a case here for all pigeon products to have precise details of what is in them prominently displayed on the label.  

 

Can't see it happen though, beacuse too many would be shown up for not containing anything which would make them in any way beneficial......hush my mouth, little old cynic me  :

[Guest Doostalker]

Thinking on about water soluble vitamins brought a quote from Dr Wim Peters to mind. He says in his book "Fit to Win" p19 "One thing worth remembering is that the chlorine in some tap waters lowers the potency of soluble vitamins."

 

He goes on to recommend the use of spring water if you live in a highly chlorinated area (most of UK I would suggest). This may prove expensive. Personally I allow the water to stand in large plastic containers for at least 24 hours by which time much of the chlorine will have dissipated.

[Guest]

Well, we come full circle back to the previous Milton debate. (Blame Doostalker).  ;D

 

Had been saving a promised article on Chlorine for Mealybar, which I have seriously cut-down from the WHO Website. Chlorine is the chemical used to disinfect drinking  water, and an 'excess' is left in the water supply for various reasons. Doostalker has posted one downside (adverse reaction on water soluble vitamins) and here are the others (remember Milton is a Chlorine - sodium hypochlorite):

 

 

GENERAL DESCRIPTION: Chlorine  Cl2; Hypochlorous acid HOCl;

                                 Sodium hypochlorite NaOCl

Major uses

 

Large amounts of chlorine are produced for use as disinfectants and bleach for both domestic and industrial purposes, and it is also widely used to disinfect drinking water and swimming pool water and to control bacteria and odours in the food industry.

 

Estimated total exposure and relative contribution of drinking-water

 

The major routes of exposure to chlorine are through drinking water, food, and contact with items either bleached or disinfected with it.

 

EFFECTS ON LABORATORY ANIMALS AND IN VITRO TEST SYSTEMS

 

Short-term exposure

 

Rats : enhanced weight gain. (chlorine at 15.7 mg/kg of body weight per day for 6 weeks).

 

Mice: an adverse effect on the macrophage defence mechanisms (chlorine at 4.8–5.8 mg/kg of body weight per day for 4 weeks.)

 

Long-term exposure

 

Rats: depression in body weight gain, depressed liver, brain, and heart weights, decreased salivary gland weights, decreased kidney weights. (sodium hypochlorite at 300 mg/kg of body weight per day for 2 years).

 

Rats and mice: decrease in water consumption ( chlorine at up to 24 mg/kg of body weight per day for 2-years)

 

Reproductive effects, embryotoxicity, and teratogenicity

 

Oral administration of hypochlorite or hypochlorous acid at 8.0 mg/kg of body weight per day resulted, in the case of hypochlorite, in increases in the amount of sperm-head abnormalities in male mice.

 

Mutagenicity and related end-points

 

Sodium hypochlorite has been found to be mutagenic in Salmonella typhimurium . Calcium and sodium hypochlorite both produced chromosomal aberrations in Chinese hamster fibroblast cells without metabolic activation.

 

 

EFFECTS ON HUMANS

Exposure to chlorine, hypochlorous acid, and hypochlorite ion through ingestion of household bleach occurs most commonly in children. Intake of a small quantity of bleach generally results in irritation of the oesophagus, a burning sensation in the mouth and throat, and spontaneous vomiting. In these cases, it is not clear whether it is the sodium hypochlorite or the extremely caustic nature of the bleach that causes the tissue injury.

 

It has been reported that asthma can be triggered by exposure to chlorinated water. Episodes of dermatitis have also been associated with exposure to chlorine and hypochlorite . In a study of 46 communities in central Wisconsin where chlorine levels in water ranged from 0.2 to 1 mg/litre, serum cholesterol and low-density lipoprotein levels were higher in communities using chlorinated water. Levels of high-density lipoprotein (HDL) and the cholesterol/HDL ratio were significantly elevated in relation to the level of calcium in the drinking-water, but only in communities using chlorinated water. The authors speculated that chlorine and calcium in drinking-water may interact in some way that affects lipid levels An increased risk of bladder cancer appeared to be associated with the consumption of chlorinated tapwater in a population-based, case–control study of adults consuming chlorinated or non-chlorinated water for half of their lifetimes .

 

 

[snowy]

CHEERS BRUNO, ive copied it to a word document for future reference, as i did the garlic article.

much appreciated

[Guest Doostalker]

OK Bruno.....blame the dummy!  :'(

Mebbe I should change my name to MiltonMan :D

 

I remember writing up a few posts on the old forum on chlorine. Basically it becomes bleach in water at high concentration levels, and sometimes the water authorities use larger than normal doses when there have been problems in the pipes. Smell water taken straight from your tap and you should be able to smell the chlorine.

 

Leaving it for a while lets the free chlorine ions escape from the surface of the water and reduces the amount left in the water. I use six 5 litre spring water containers which I fill and leave for 3 days. I only use two a day. That way I am sure that much of the chlorine is dissipated.

 

By the way Bruno excellent article you posted. Pity you probably have started Jimmy White off on his Milton drinking experiments again....hee hee   :D

[Guest speckled]

:-/ Ah sorry for the vit artical,god this gets out of hand.all this biusness.of chlorine in the water takes away the value, of the :-/ vit intake, :B dont no if any of ya have thought about,getting youself a :-/ filter jug,takes all mess ya lot say comes from the tap,nothing but pure drinkable water,& the only thing ya need to change is the filter, & if ya forget that a little button on the side tells ya a week before ya need to do that,so thats prepared to do ya job,mine have filltered water ;D i fill 2 5ltr bottles up every night   which are a room temp, with pure filtrered water, ;D Jimmy give this one ago ya never drink a better cup,off coffee.no residue & for the cost o £8 is worth it.Just a thought speckled.So are my vits being destoyed but emimies in the water dont think so. ah

[jimmy white]

the miltman arrives ,,,    bhw   article by les  parkinson, on mr  mrs  j mathews of congleton.   question,,do you give any special treatments when the birds come home from the race, as a precaution against anything they  may have picked up in the basket    answer,,,WE DO PUT MILTON IN THE WATER, WHEN THEY RETURN,  FOR   STERILIZATION PURPOSES and they can race pigeons, beleive me   :)