Swifts

I know this is going to cause friction but it has to be said. The main point you are making here is that the birds are not behaving naturally. This is because their situation is not natural. It is not natural for them to be out on the hunt and suddenly come across a huge flock of non-natural prey, it is not natural for them to be able to sustain such high numbers in towns and cities. The only creature which feels the need to interfere and alter its natural environment is man. Of course the peregrines will not behave naturally in a man-made environment, thriving on an unnaturally high source of unnatural prey introduced into nature by man. Does it not occur to you that when you increase the population of one creature (i.e. pigeons) in one area, even for a short period of time (i.e. exercising birds or a race) it is going to skew the natural state of flux between predator and prey? I am not blaming pigeon fanciers for this behaviour as these peregrines were probably introduced to the area, but they would not be able to sustain unnaturally high numbers if there was not an unnaturally numerous source of prey. These birds will also be unlikely to disperse as there is enough food now in our towns to support them due to the actions of man. It is rare that you will find any wild animal behaving naturally in an urban environment, but I guess that's what you get when you mess with nature. By the way these pigeons were probably killed by youngsters who are learning to hunt but are too timid to follow the prey as it falls to the ground and lack the strength to lift it to a higher perch.

Pigeon fanciers as an isolated organisation are going to get nowhere by screaming "death to all raptors" in outraged voices and plastering the media with graphic images. There is a sensible way to deal with this that will benefit all causes even if it takes an indirect route to pigeon fancying. I am speaking on behalf of falconers, for falconry. I am not a spy from the RSPB or a windup merchant. Falconers have become sick and tired of dabbling muppets who go out and buy raptors on impulse with no prior knowledge of how to train or care for them (you don't need a licence to own a captive bred BOP in the UK at the moment) . These people are bringing our sport into dispute. Therefore falconers are lobbying for a change in legislation concerning all raptors, whether wild or captive bred. We are suggesting that there should be an apprenticeship scheme similar to that in the USA and Ireland. This will allow only federally licenced falconers to own birds, and these birds will be a choice of indigenous species that will be taken sustainably from the wild. This means there will be significantly less incompetent novices in our sport, and falconers will be responsible for sustainably controlling the wild raptor population. I find it hard to believe that the government would rather see raptors dead than in the hands of falconers. I believe that with the support of pigeon fanciers, game keepers and poultry keepers, we could present a united front which would provide the bodies concerned with a fairly solid argument which would be beneficial to all involved.

I never said they would take only sick/injured/whatever pigeons. I have seen wild and captive bred raptors taking fit wild quarry in full flight, nobody knows the power of destruction of raptors more than people who work with them every day. Several times on this thread I have suggested a truce between gamekeepers, pigeon fanciers etc (anti-hawk people) with falconers in order to rally for new legislation on birds of prey which will benefit everyone. I have been open minded and accepted people's views. I know that raptors cause you inconvenience and such, but like it or not there are people out there who enjoy their presence as well. I am perfectly willing to support your arguments against the RSPB who, in my opinion know very little about birds of prey. However as they are a charity the public assume that they are the authority on raptors and anything else they may choose to represent. What this country needs is a board run by people affected by birds of prey and who have the knowledge and motivation to bring about change. I care as much for hawks living in the middle of nowhere as I do the ones who I fly and hunt with. There is a way around this, everyone just needs to realise that one single organisation is simply not strong enough to make a difference. I am speaking as much for the benefit of your sport as I am my own.

Well then. That's up to them. Falconers cannot release rehabilitated birds but the RSPB can. However you forget that the RSPB rings wild eyasses while they are still in the nest? Could this be where the rings are from? Did you happen to see the initials BOS on the rings? I genuinely can't see the point if they are releasing birds into the wild. It is illegal to intentionally release any captive-bred animal into the wild, but I'm sure they can find a way around it.... By the way you can still release orphaned or injured BOP so that may account for any releases shown on TV etc. I think I speak for most falconers when I say that I do not condone or support the RSPBs actions on this matter in any way.

Falconers birds are not the ones taking your pigeons. I would appreciate it if you didn't make this personal. We have to go to great lengths to get permission on remote ground to fly our hawks on. We do not let them loose in towns to kill willy nilly like cat owners do.

Unfortunately nobody needs a liscence to own a bird of prey. Many falconers are lobbying for a system similar to that in the USA or Ireland, where only federally liscenced falconers are allowed to own birds, and these birds are indigenous species taken sustainably from the wild. Falconers are sick and tired of all of the muppets who go out and buy hawks with no prior knowledge. These people are bringing our great sport into dispute. If the above system was also backed by fraternities such as gamekeepers and pigeon fanciers as well as falconers then it may well work and have benefits for everyone.

We knew how many survived as every wild disabled raptor which is re-released has a DEFRA ring fitted (all supplied by the government) I have never raced pigeons but I assume you use the IBR if one of your birds is lost? (please correct me if I'm wrong) the rings have an IBR contact number on them. If a bird is found dead and reported to the IBR the centre is contacted. Around 75% of the birds we released turned up dead. Add that to the numbers not reported and you get a whopping mortality rate. If the RSPB are releasing raptors then I pity them and the birds they release as a waste of valuable time and money. Wild bred raptors will survive quite nicely with no interference from humans. Captive bred raptors are generally only good for falconry. As you can probably tell I'm not a great fan of the establishment either

Apart from the man part (I'm not male) I really do doubt that Skymaster is a falconer. Unless you go out screaming death to all hawks you will generally find that falconers are reasonable people. There have been proposed culls on many species of raptor (proposed by the RSPB) and I find it shocking that these organisations would rather see raptors dead than in the hands of falconers. Many falconers have suggested a change in legislation that allows only licsenced falconers to own birds, and that these birds are taken from the wild sustainably, similar to the system in the USA and Ireland. This would stop dabblers in the sport and keep wild raptor numbers under control. I'm sure if gamekeepers and pigeon fanciers put away their guns and poisons and opened their ears a little more often then some kind of agreement could be met.

The raptor centre where I work used to be involved in the raptor release programs. They were put a stop to about ten years ago because they were doing fine by themselves. DEFRA no longer issues liscences to release captive bred raptors into the wild. Also, as an experienced rehabber, I can tell you that 75% of released raptors don't make it past their first year (i.e orphaned birds or reconditioned injured birds) Nothing beats a natural upbringing by experienced wild hunting parents and a supply of wild-caught food which would not be provided by the RSPB. I will be the first to tell you that the RSPB doesn't actually have a clue what they are talking about when it comes to raptors. You want facts, talk to a falconer.

Yes, all birds descended from a common ancestor which was at least similar to the reptiles of today. Raptors have bred, adapted and eventually evolved to what we see today alongside rock doves, the descendants of racing pigeons today. Pigeons are the reason that raptors are the shape they are now. Raptors such as sparrowhawks and peregrines are specialised bird killers. In a natural environment it is their job to keep small bird/pigeon numbers in check. However, if you take any predator's natural food source, mass produce it then release it back into the wild for anything to snack on, then you will attract a large number of predators. I don't agree that the RSPB should be providing artificial nest sites for the raptors in our towns, but I've never heard of a peregrine or sparrowhawk release program. White-tailed and golden eagles, yes, but the peregrines and sparrowhawks followed their food source into the towns and cities, they moved just as the sparrow and bluetit learned that there is easier food around man. It's just that instead of eating off the bird table they're eating your pigeons. Swifts and Swallows will follow the gnats and bugs, raptors followed the pigeon.

I love this, you only stand up for the songbirds etc cos the pigeons are in the same boat. I love songbirds, and I know no garden is complete without them, but I don't suggest we should wipe out all our indigineous predators because they are preying on my pets, which are not essential to the environment in any way. There has been no great exponential increase in birds of prey, they have simply been lured into towns and cities by the increase in pigeon numbers. Go into the remote countryside, away from humans and you'll find that there is a healthy, self-contained population of raptors. Keep an open buffet in your garden and you're going to attract predators.

And threatening to shoot my hawks and any others that come near your precious "racehorses of the sky" is not sick? I hunt rabbits, crows, gulls etc with my hawk. All pests in need of selective culling

And hawk isn't totally different from woodpigeon? I'm sorry I shot your racer, me honour, I'm short sighted, thought it was a hawk Anyway, I don't shoot. Also, why is it crueller to shoot racers? or is it just because they're yours? If you shoot a woodie what are the chances that that has young and a mate too? If you kill any animal you have to face the consequences. Once you've got it in your gunsight they're all living things regardless of who owns it.

Oh and for the record I do not hunt any pigeons with my hawks. In fact, I don't think any falconers do in Britain apart from pest control. We are hunters, not muggers of tired pigeons.

Um, no. I am talking about pitting a fit, healthy captive animal against a fit, healthy wild opponent. Not pointing a gun at an unsuspecting pigeon and pulling the trigger. Mind you, whilst talking about mistaking things for woodpigeons when out with the shotgun, isn't that a big risk to YOUR birds? would you abolish pigeon shooting if you could? I've seen plenty of racers alongside woodies in the game bag at the end of the day. When your birds don't come home, don't be so quick to jump on the raptors.

I kept pigeons whilst waiting to complete my falconry apprenticeship. I spent every weekend learning the art of hunting wild live quarry with trained raptors. When I wasn't out hawking I was looking after the pigeons. If I witnessed a raptor taking one of my birds I would look at it the same way as a falconry flight: a battle between my bird and its wild opponent. If my bird was successful (My hawk killed its quarry or the pigeon made it back to the loft intact) then it was a great victory for me and my training methods. If, however the bird failed (the quarry made it back to cover or my pigeon was killed) then I felt as if I had gained a worthy new opponent that would live to challenge my (and my birds') skills another day. THEN all is fair in love and war

If you take into account that the wader had just flown god knows how far to get there, it was probably dead tired and an easy meal. A buzzard won't actively chase a fit bird in flight.

Yes, I am a falconer. However I have kept pigeons as well. I may have progressed to become a pigeon racer but to be honest the birds themselves bore me. There is far more involvement and commitment in falconry and a better reward at the end. We have to face wires, cats, foxes and wild raptors too. That's what you get when you release a captive animal into the wild, even temporarily. The instant it leaves your hand it ceases to be in your control.

As I said in my first post (deleted within seconds ) pigeons are not stupid birds. Neither are raptors. Once pigeons have learned to avoid raptor attacks through association and negative reinforcement, they will appear more confident and "wised up". The raptor is naturally looking for weaker individuals who will require minimal energy to bring down (raptors, especially sparrowhawks, have a very fast metabolism and will go to great lengths to conserve energy.) Once they have seen that your birds are more confident and aware of their surroundings they will tend to avoid them. I have participated in pigeon fancying but am now a practicing falconer. I used to enjoy the thrill of pitting my wits and my birds' training and skills against a wild worthy opponent (which is basically the same principle as falconry) and watching my birds adapt to live alongside the local raptors was one of the greatest feelings of accomplishment as a fancier and a great victory as a trainer. Keeping pigeons taught me alot about respecting my quarry as an equal in falconry