thanks jack,basicaly i was thinking right,but,brother and sister mating for inbreeding made me think for a bit,,,,i should realised straight away about line breeding and then inbreed,,,,,i am doing exactly the same way breeding blue eyed white mini lop rabbits and succeeding in size reduction ,,,,,so,breed for pigeons to fly and breed for rabbit size,,,,very same principles and rules of breeding to what your after,i think i wrote it right,,,thanks again jack,,,,ted