would you say  young bird losses could be put down to the way we  feed them

i dont race but drive for the kent cosmo and find most losses are down to lack of training or sh** birds tbh m8  .



bernie

Well you did ask  :X

For my money most losses are due to poor health.

I was talking to an old mate of mine recently, and although he doesn't race these days, he commented on the lack of "pigeon racing flocks"  that that were  the norm in the earlier days. Some weeks we would know where pigeons were heading. We could honestly say, There go the Fed birds, or even Southport birds, most weeks. Ours always were liberated a bit later than theirs, and if you got one , in the lull before the storm. you were on a winner. Then they would pass in droves! with our own birds ( the also rans) dropping out of the  passing flocks. These days, we dont see the flocks passing over here, only the odd idividual racer. What has happened? Are the birds using the eastern motorways to their advantage?  Strange but true. Vic.  

Remember well loads of twaddle spouted in many scenarios about feed. like 'Ah if you race .... then you must only feed .... and heavy' etc.
A pigeon is a pigeon! If it wants home it will come home! If contented at home that is, mind Cod Liver oil on jellied eels might be a bit off putting lol.
Of course not mucker. They return from many races hungry... not many pop off to 'Trafalger Square' for a quick snack ;) :P ;D
So simplely put, off course not!

There is a few things that are down to the losses, i dont think down to feeding would cause the losses that you hear about. :)

to be honest i think if it were just 1 problem it would be sorted by now. from what little i've seen i think to many birds come out of the basket ( training or racing) with little or perhaps no knowledge of where 'home' is due to a lack of roaming  experience. then the other problems kick in clashing/ dehyration etc. i also don't believe feeding is a cause. just my opinion  

Quoted from karl adams

would you say  young bird losses could be put down to the way we  feed them

although most have dismissed this - it rather depends on how, what - and how much you feed them - before this is dismissed
I was quite disgusted when I went to a moot - to find a 'top' flier only gave 60 youngsters 50 ounces of feed

don't believe all you hear at moots etc!
Do you think top fanciers are going to tell you everything?

Phil

Quoted from REDCHEQHEN

although most have dismissed this - it rather depends on how, what - and how much you feed them - before this is dismissed
I was quite disgusted when I went to a moot - to find a 'top' flier only gave 60 youngsters 50 ounces of feed

On Thursday before Friday marking maybe! lol.

Perhaps you could say that the way we feed is a reason why we dont seem to get pigeons sitting on the loft the day after a bad race the way we used to but I think not. I think the pigeons we race today are powder puffs, in search of speed the pigeons constitution seems to have suffered. They just dont seem to have it in them to get up the following day like they used to.

I think this is just a case of people looking for more excuses!
It's easy to blame everything but themselves and if they take a look at there own methods, hygene, amount of training etc then they may find more reasons for losses!

Phil

Quoted from pjc

I think this is just a case of people looking for more excuses!
It's easy to blame everything but themselves and if they take a look at there own methods, hygene, amount of training etc then they may find more reasons for losses!

Phil

  I don't need to look for excuses! i started training 34 ybs and have 31 ready to send to the first race, and ten of these were squeaking on their first chuck, 10 days ago.  I must admit I have had losses, but still have 24 darkies upfront.I must also admit, they ain't been further than Hale shore, about 10 mile by car.  

Many things, but i still say that lack of water the biggest problem. Lot of fanciers won't feed them on a friday, so unlikely to take too much water then in a basket til Saturday morning or later then expected to fly a few hours! Stressed, no bloody wonder!!! Decent birds that know where the trough is on the basket will get thru the season unless they other bad luck.

i can never understand why people push ybs so hard.  they are only babies its the future you want them for not one season yb racing.

chose not to p*ss everyone off

As regarding drinking training, all birds and animals will find water IF it's there, when thirsty. Basket water training is bunkum as far as I am concerned.

The thing is your dealing with a living thing and we all know us humans are all different so too the doo. If the birds are in good health, fit and well educated i.e. have been doon the road at various stages then the only thing against them is weather and I don't just mean at liberation but all weather from A to B ( shap fell ). Of course the last time I raced a bird was in the early seventy's when we didnae pamper them! Just a thought but we still had our share of losses which were all put down to weather so I may be wrong (not the first time). I always gave my birds a light feed / water prior to basketing.

Quoted from Vic

As regarding drinking training, all birds and animals will find water IF it's there, when thirsty. Basket water training is bunkum as far as I am concerned.

So when a stray YB (or any stray) enters your loft what is the first thing it usually does? Have to say that the last sentence is the worse quote i have seen on any pigeon forum.

Quoted from karl adams

would you say  young bird losses could be put down to the way we  feed them

no,,,as we all feed differently ,,, there is no doubt about it , the modern day yb   definately lacks the constitution of many years ago,, probably due to many things in this modern age , one is, years of mollycoddling and treating for this,  that, and the next thing .the  over use of anti-biotics through the years [the real avian vets will tell you this ] breeding quantity rather than quality is another reason ,,,,, but this is the modern day  age , we cant adjust that, mores the pity  :)

Quoted from mark

i can never understand why people push ybs so hard.  they are only babies its the future you want them for not one season yb racing.

Yep true :o, when others send 2/3 weeks on the trot y/b's 400 miles and over, I've scored with 12 week old youngsters from nearly 500 miles... Think it is time to get down to brass roots and reality again.
Natural, contented, and not bred from incestualmatings would be a great few steps forward!
YEP why one says I have to breed a 200 to couter - balance my losses' :-/
What when 20 was a big team f youngsters, and 3/4 year olds were having to make way for them as they wanted their' yearling perches. use to say 'Don't add perches ... make them make their mark and earn it'!
How very true! So let's forget the silly myths  that are 'Lame crutches' for bad managerment. Let's forget about 'Know all' braggngs rights and his tall stories' Rather note him up the corner say nowt!
Birds want home, they come home. Let them make the decision and stick to YOUR managerment system. Yes one loses some, less each year till one has contented birds that like the managerment and the system.

Quoted from Roland

Yep true :o, when others send 2/3 weeks on the trot y/b's 400 miles and over, I've scored with 12 week old youngsters from nearly 500 miles... Think it is time to get down to brass roots and reality again.
Natural, contented, and not bred from incestualmatings would be a great few steps forward!
YEP why one says I have to breed a 200 to couter - balance my losses' :-/
What when 20 was a big team f youngsters, and 3/4 year olds were having to make way for them as they wanted their' yearling perches. use to say 'Don't add perches ... make them make their mark and earn it'!
How very true! So let's forget the silly myths  that are 'Lame crutches' for bad managerment. Let's forget about 'Know all' braggngs rights and his tall stories' Rather note him up the corner say nowt!
Birds want home, they come home. Let them make the decision and stick to YOUR managerment system. Yes one loses some, less each year till one has contented birds that like the managerment and the system.

agreed

I think we will never know the reason for the losses ,other wise some bright spark would have found it by now ,so get used to it how ever many you breed.ATB les.

the reason i asked this is i reared 2 rounds of young birds 46 in all but with in 6 weeks i lost 35  i was told to feed them 1oz of food  per bird a day which i was doing after loosing so many i changed the way i feed them and put my 3rd round of young birds with them and started to feed them 1 oz of corn per 4 bird  first thing in the morning an hour later all are sent training birds come back 4 hours later all trap well to a bit of light feed in tray 3 hours later they get a main feed as much as they want for 1 hour then freshwater then locked up till next day      and Ive not lost a bird scenes doing so

Quoted from karl adams

the reason i asked this is i reared 2 rounds of young birds 46 in all but with in 6 weeks i lost 35  i was told to feed them 1oz of food  per bird a day which i was doing after loosing so many i changed the way i feed them and put my 3rd round of young birds with them and started to feed them 1 oz of corn per 4 bird  first thing in the morning an hour later all are sent training birds come back 4 hours later all trap well to a bit of light feed in tray 3 hours later they get a main feed as much as they want for 1 hour then freshwater then locked up till next day      and Ive not lost a bird scenes doing so

you changed your system of feed , and it has worked for you , stick with it

come on vic , hurry up and get the post on

Quoted from mickb

So when a stray YB (or any stray) enters your loft what is the first thing it usually does? Have to say that the last sentence is the worse quote i have seen on any pigeon forum.

C'mone Sunshine, get your act together. If a bird can't find water in the wilds at any time . it has no future whatsoever. Are you a member of the RSPB or what? You are listening to a man who has raced pigeons for 55 years, and  when I talk, I don't talk sh**! You Say;_
"Worse quote on any pigeon forum"  Indeed! I, like my birds, have been there and back many , many times. How many have you  won from 500 miles?  

Quoted from Vic

As regarding drinking training, all birds and animals will find water IF it's there, when thirsty. Basket water training is bunkum as far as I am concerned.

Totally agree with this post Vic, I used to dip all ybs that were just weaned, head in water to teach them to drink, morning and night.What a waste of time!!Only the daft ones dont find the drinker and they are the first to go in training.

when stray young birds drop at my loft with my birds from training they just want corn and run through my traps this is happening a lot like today i had 1 go in it was put on the same transporter as mine and only lived a mile and half away the owner says it was a December reared young  bird and has had loads of training

Yes, I went through the same procedure myself. I literally spent a lot of years  (all added up) mollycoddling ybs. Looking at their half closed eyes, depicting thirst. A load of crap! The same goes with basket training as far as I'm concerned. Please! Some of you guys, Don't take Vic as anybodys fool. I only log in, to try help the novices from making  the long journey shorter. Cheers,. Vic.

The bottom line in my opinion,is they have it or they havent,possible reason for losses,too many youngsters being bred,there are now only half the fanciers there were 40 years ago,yet we are breeding twice as many youngsters,point being too much crap being bred,with every egg being hatched,charge £2 each for rings,and overnight your losses will drop alarmingly,draw a line through your young birds at end of season ,you will find that most of your good youngsters are from parents that performed well,and not these so called paper pigeons ,breed less and look after them better.

I would say yes in some instances

1. To heavy a feed ( lots of protein ) will result in ybs going fat thus resulting in lack of condition & out of shape birds which will have a reluctance to fly for long periods of time .

2. To light a feed ( low protein ) is the one i perfer but the birds will fly for longer periods of time but with the feed being low protein the ybs don't put on any weight & have no build up of reserves and if they go missing they don't return

It is a fine balance between the 2 feeding methods what is required something only the fancier can decide !!!!!

Quoted Text

How many have you  won from 500 miles?

I see this quote all the time on this forum , I take it you are nothing in the pigeon game till you win from 500 miles, yet i see" sprint champions" every week in the pigeon press selling birds for   large amounts of cash & nowhere does it say they have won x amount of 500 mile races.Or is this just a way of telling everyone on the forum that you have won from 500 miles?.

This is not directed at the member who used this saying on this thread but more an observation of an increasing trend on this forum , if I can't win the argument just post the 500 mile winner question & hopefully they will go away.

sorry for the move of subject.

My own personal opinion is that there are alot more hazards for birds to over come now than when I started 30 odd years ago  mobile phone signals being only one

Have to agree with J.Bambling  pigeons need the correct amount of fuel to do the job too much then there too slow , not enough then they fail. Racing pigeons all have homing ability it's either poor , good , or excelent. Breeding from proven birds doesnt decrease the amount of loses because they breed just as many duffers . I suppose with the price of buying pigeons now and the high price they demand , most go straight to stock untested because of the high prices they go for. As for pigeons finding food and water in a basket , they dont need training to do this it's natural .

Quoted from Vic

C'mone Sunshine, get your act together. If a bird can't find water in the wilds at any time . it has no future whatsoever. Are you a member of the RSPB or what? You are listening to a man who has raced pigeons for 55 years, and  when I talk, I don't talk sh**! You Say;_
"Worse quote on any pigeon forum"  Indeed! I, like my birds, have been there and back many , many times. How many have you  won from 500 miles?  

Sorry Vic i did not realise i was in the company of a fancier that knew everything!! Lets see, 500 mile races ermm, hold on on i will try to remember. Oh yes, last time i raced in UK in 2003 bergerac only bird on day in Oxford 2nd fed, but only the BBO fed!!!! erm year before i did not send, year before that only 3 birds in race time i had two both next morn, first one was in fed cant remember where............. shall i carry on??? In fact i think in 15 year of racing on my own i think there is only one occasion i never timed in, i even had day birds in the dreaded 97 centenary race, only 3 in the town, and well up in the open! Also years in this sport mean nothing, i know guys 50 years in still could'nt fly a kite and other new starters who win from day one. As the thread is about YB losses, would be more apt to ask how many Ybs i lost every year, well if i ever lost more than 5 if was a bad year, usually would be 2 or 3, in 2002 i lost 1 from 27, all raced and thats a fact!!!

I would say that most birds that die from being lost die of de-hydration. What chance a bird in a crate of between 30 and 40 birds of getting a substantial enough drink to allow it to home properly? A bird would need to drink within an hour of it being released, that means every bird should drink, do you think that really happens? Some of the water systems i have seen on a transporter would be lucky if half the birds got a drink at all. A bird that is de-hydrated on release has less chances, and if it makes a mistake the chances lessen, and if it becomes so flown out that it can hardly fly how is it supposed to find water then?

Back to thread of course feeding is also very important, but then again feeding is always the key!

I would say feeding can be the difference between 1st fed and 5th fed but to say it is responsible for yb losses i am not so sure unless you mean fanciers hammering youngsters down the road every day then feeding them a low protien(gerry plus) type mixture on return and then probably  only at one ounce per bird. youngsters on these systems will never mature to their full capabilities, no chance to build muscle or repair fatigued muscle from races.

Now as a beginner where do i begin.
Ok my first young bird season i had 40 youngsters finished with 5 at the end of the racing season
my second season had 40 youngsters finished with 30 at the end of the racing season
this season ive bred 30 i'm on 25 at the beginning of the racing season.
Most of my losses came BEFORE racing even started .And Most of my losses where second round younsters the last two years(the first year they were all bought or gift birds also on a side note i dont have any of the first seasons bird left at all now i lost the last two from tarbes due to inexperiance on my behalf).Now the only thing i blame is myself the first season my birds where fat and over fed and in poor condition due to inexperience on my behalf.
Last years youngsters where fed all the could eat once a day for half an hour till the first race then put on 1 1/2 hounces of young bird mix(i think it was bamfords) mixed with 50% barley.
Not only did the birds come well i could have taken a few first if i couldve trapped them but thats a different story(maybe to much food on friday).I also moved house and missed two races them broke my birds and raced the last two races and took two fed cards.
Now make from this what you will but i put the majority of young bird losses down to to MUCH feed.
I agree with Vic about the basket training ive not basket trained the this year or last yet the first year i basket trained .Also this year i havnt dipped a single young bird.
And allthough i havnt won a 500 miler yet i did get the only bird on the day from Niort last weekend with a yearling thats 480 mile to me does that count?

I agree with the water bit. Stopped that dipping in the drinker bit a while back. Haven't had any die of thirst on me since - yet  :) Saw an unusual sight the other day there - a stray came down on the roof in light rain, just a hint of water running down the roof tiles - just enough to make them shiny - the bird was sipping water from the tile egde.

Think you oversimplify water / basket training tho. Not just a matter of 'there's the drinker, I'll away over for a scoop'  - every time a bird moves in the basket it starts a reaction in the rest of the birds in the basket, and that can lead to all sorts of squabbles. The bird might never get near the drinker, and get a sore head & face for its efforts if it tries.

I give them an overnight once a week for 4/5 weeks, mixed sexes, to get them used to this, and to show them that there's food and water there - and eventual liberation so nothing to worry about - learn the score sort of thing.

On marking night you can tell the birds which have been basket ' trained' as they appear to settle down quicker than others,  ennyhoo I think its a good idea to at least get them used to the basket so less stress and use of energy.

Quoted from dignity DAZ

For my money most losses are due to poor health.

Need to treat regular for canker and cocci especialy when racing. i think young bird losses would be down if most people did this.

With present day methods, and the darkness ybs looking so immaculate, with a super duper  glow (appearence) about  them. How could anybody say "treat 'em".  I know who needs treating, and it's not the ybs! lol.

Your feeding will possibily dictate how well your birds race,but as being responsible for losses,dont think so,still mantain its down to too many inferior birds being bred,and regardless of what effort you put into these,ya cant make a slik puse out of a sows ear,they dont have IT in general what it takes,the more you breed and fly,the bigger your losses

I,ve been training my young birds this year and water training on lib site 12 to 13 birds per basket
still can only 1 or 2 birds to take drink even when i drop a bit of hemp in the drinker it seem only the
dominant ones take a drink ?

Quoted from wings

Need to treat regular for canker and cocci especialy when racing. i think young bird losses would be down if most people did this.

Hi I rarely treat for cocci I believe it's a secondary illness and you won't get a great imbalance in any other circumstance except a damp / wet loft where the cocci can thrive. In deed I am aware that some fanciers use cocci treatment to boost their birds performance!
Vic agree with you I've never basket trained, in fact my yb will not have been in the basket until this morning when I go up shortly to take them for their first toss.
One important factor we forget when we look back and consider the ways of the 70's etc is the different culture we have toward health and medicine. People are living longer now, children are surviving birth that they would never have done 40 /50 years ago because of advances in medicine and technology. Those that are surviving longer however still have huge health issues, taking tablets for this that and the other but it helps them survive, which we all want!
It's the same with the birds we have all these medicines available to ordinary guys which we could never have afforded or sourced a generation back. Now though we can keep our birds healthy (on the surface) using them. However whereas us humans who are surviving longer; no longer have to carry out the arduous task of our younger days, our birds do! If as humans we were plying ourselves with all these drugs and still expecting to do a days work down the pit or in the steel works, survival rates would dip dramatically. I believe this is the samewith our birds we are dosing them p to maintain health but they are breaking down under the strain.
It's a viscious circle because today we live in a society that has to contend with super bugs like Cdif, to win at times you need to medicate but it's getting the balance and I think that is really difficult. There are far more pigeons today and I do believe in a peverse way they are better pigeons than we had 50 years ago, with the caveat that they are better sprint pigeons and the distance birds that we have brought in from the continent are faster pigeons at 500/700 mile. But sadly the old British long distance birds bred to come in adverse weather have been bred out and these are the pigeons we could do with today. I think Chris Gordon has it right he is breeding from the old English distance strains crosed with the speed of the Belgians and he should breed some with that hardy element of always coming when it's tough but with slightly more speed.
And if anyone knows someone down here in Devon / Somerset who has these British strains that still win from Thurso and Lerwick please let me know.
I believe you must have quality birds first and foremost but if the health is no good you won't win, but healthy birds of poor quality will never win. If you can master the art of feeding then that is an added advantage you have, but for me quality and health first and worry about precision feeding when you're consistently Knocking at the door.
The bottom line in all this is breeding and the art of selection, to get quality birds you must be able to select or perhaps rely on your wallet.

Quoted from Merlin

Your feeding will possibily dictate how well your birds race,but as being responsible for losses,dont think so,still mantain its down to too many inferior birds being bred,and regardless of what effort you put into these,ya cant make a slik puse out of a sows ear,they dont have IT in general what it takes,the more you breed and fly,the bigger your losses

Think your right Merlin not so much down to the feeding more like too many inferior birds being bred there has always been yb losses but I think many over the years have come away from the more selective breeding years ago many didnt breed the sort of teams people are racing now most couldnt afford to  Think too many now are breeding quantity and not quality and i cant see how if you got a big team of ybs you can look at what you got the only way you can do it is by putting them in the basket and letting that do it for you  Have to agree with what cosmodriver says as well seen too many birds that shouldnt even be going perhaps because we seem to have the attitude now of if its there its got to go and when you see that its not hard to understand why they dont see the birds anymore but thats down to bad fanciers not bad pigeons

The best way to train youngbirds is from weaning.
Wean them into a training crate/basket for a week where they will learn to feed and drink, after this they will never be nervous or afraid of the basket.

Phil

Quoted from Albear

Hi I rarely treat for cocci I believe it's a secondary illness and you won't get a great imbalance in any other circumstance except a damp / wet loft where the cocci can thrive. In deed I am aware that some fanciers use cocci treatment to boost their birds performance!
Vic agree with you I've never basket trained, in fact my yb will not have been in the basket until this morning when I go up shortly to take them for their first toss.
One important factor we forget when we look back and consider the ways of the 70's etc is the different culture we have toward health and medicine. People are living longer now, children are surviving birth that they would never have done 40 /50 years ago because of advances in medicine and technology. Those that are surviving longer however still have huge health issues, taking tablets for this that and the other but it helps them survive, which we all want!
It's the same with the birds we have all these medicines available to ordinary guys which we could never have afforded or sourced a generation back. Now though we can keep our birds healthy (on the surface) using them. However whereas us humans who are surviving longer; no longer have to carry out the arduous task of our younger days, our birds do! If as humans we were plying ourselves with all these drugs and still expecting to do a days work down the pit or in the steel works, survival rates would dip dramatically. I believe this is the samewith our birds we are dosing them p to maintain health but they are breaking down under the strain.
It's a viscious circle because today we live in a society that has to contend with super bugs like Cdif, to win at times you need to medicate but it's getting the balance and I think that is really difficult. There are far more pigeons today and I do believe in a peverse way they are better pigeons than we had 50 years ago, with the caveat that they are better sprint pigeons and the distance birds that we have brought in from the continent are faster pigeons at 500/700 mile. But sadly the old British long distance birds bred to come in adverse weather have been bred out and these are the pigeons we could do with today. I think Chris Gordon has it right he is breeding from the old English distance strains crosed with the speed of the Belgians and he should breed some with that hardy element of always coming when it's tough but with slightly more speed.
And if anyone knows someone down here in Devon / Somerset who has these British strains that still win from Thurso and Lerwick please let me know.
[/color]I believe you must have quality birds first and foremost but if the health is no good you won't win, but healthy birds of poor quality will never win. If you can master the art of feeding then that is an added advantage you have, but for me quality and health first and worry about precision feeding when you're consistently Knocking at the door.
The bottom line in all this is breeding and the art of selection, to get quality birds you must be able to select or perhaps rely on your wallet.

[color=red]

best post in a long time

Health and Hawks.

Stuart

albear would agree with all u say apart from basket training i do belive they need to know what a basket  is before there first toss and for drinking just try putting drinkers on the birds in the club when the marking is finished and ul see them drink we done it this year and i couldn't belive how much the birds drank even though they were only in the baskets for a short while  

my own beliefs for loses are all of the above birds not good enough feed training and so on u see top fanicers they never seem to lose to many alright they might have 1 bad year but its rare the top fanicers leave not tin uncovered when it comes to all these points there attention to detail and there work ethic is amazing no stone is left uncovered

Quoted from j.bamling

I would say yes in some instances

1. To heavy a feed ( lots of protein ) will result in ybs going fat thus resulting in lack of condition & out of shape birds which will have a reluctance to fly for long periods of time .

2. To light a feed ( low protein ) is the one i perfer but the birds will fly for longer periods of time but with the feed being low protein the ybs don't put on any weight & have no build up of reserves and if they go missing they don't return

It is a fine balance between the 2 feeding methods what is required something only the fancier can decide !!!!!

Well niether applies of course to hopper fed. Sure you may leave a mite 'Feed' you wish for them to have, as they don't know what you have planned for the. However, Most naturl flyers seem to get the feeding right... why they excel not only at the distance, but sprints too now adays.

gone are the day's when we started the programe , with 14-20 old bird's
5 race's down ireland , 125-250ml
6 on the water             198-500+ml
the programe compleated with very few losses barring , bad luck with smashe's
y/bird programe starting with 20 ,
10 race's out to 250ml , again few losses , barring smashe's
feed was basic , what ever you could get your hand's on at the right money
inferior bird's- yes
sick bird's-yes
feed -no
just not the right stuff

JUST TO ADD A LITTLE POINT TO THIS 2 OF THE GUYS AT OUR PLACE TOOK THERE Y/B'S 15 MLS AWAY TODAY LIB'D AT 10.45AM 1 SENT 47 THE OTHER 13 RESULT AT 7 PM TONIGHT WAS 21 FROM 47 AND 5 FROM 13 :( :( :(

another point to this last week i sent 26 on the south road and lost 11 in one toss this week sent i have sent  them all north and got them all home the point i am trying to make is that most people race south road so more birds will be raced from that direction so most losses will be put down to clashing

forgot to mention i dont believe it is down to feeding or inadequate birds but it is down to training routes

i agree with what carlsberg said and he is right in my opinion

Young bird losses (not in any particular order)

1 - Quality of pigeons

2 - Health (including pigeons that are out there that have been doctored up, when really they should be in the bin)

3 - Clashing

4 - Hawks in certain areas

5 - Weather

6 - Non coordination of Feds / Amals (why send 6 transporters down from the same area to the same racepoint and have seperate liberations, strength in numbers and all that).

7 - Feed, not giving the birds enough fuel in their tanks if they make a mistake, with the way we feed these days (more carbs / fats and less proteins), they have one shot at getting home - if they don't they don't have anything in the tank to help them the next day.

Just my thoughts, although I think the list is endless

It would be interesting to give someone a loft of say 75/100 young birds . NO ped,s,No names and No idea where they came from . Ask the person to fly them to the best of his ability and see what the result would be after 4/5 years .

He would have to go on the birds alone . No preference because its a this or that breed .
                                                         . No breeding this strain with the same
                                                         . No idea of making money out of this or that ect ect ect
                                                         . No fancy food,just decent quality food
In the end he would have the birds that could do the job and fight for home  , even if its only one pair !
He might not have the winners every week ! But his birds will come home !!

This wouldnt appeal to the big money men or the win at all cost men , but it would mean a lot to the grass roots guys who want to see their birds getting home every week .
Would we end up with a loft of decent doo,s ????
Would we answer the question of young bird losses ????
Would we breed a stronger constitution pigeon ????

The feed , the medication , the basket raining , the road training , the quality of birds , as long as there are a thousand different guys doing a thousand different things we may never know ?

Its been said before,   The List Is Endless !!

This has also been said before !
                                          " A good bird will still do well regardless of the fancier "

Quoted from Roland

Well niether applies of course to hopper fed. Sure you may leave a mite 'Feed' you wish for them to have, as they don't know what you have planned for the. However, Most naturl flyers seem to get the feeding right... why they excel not only at the distance, but sprints too nowadays

We are talking about ybs here not natural distance hopper fed pigeons
I was on about the balance between feeding to light
and feeding to heavy
If the ybs were fed an Irish mix they ain't going to
win the first yb races
Or if the ybs are fed depuritive they are not going to
win yb Nat say 270 mls also
Losses would be great that was my point !!!
The feeding would play.a Part in yb losses if people did the wrong thing it is getting the feeding right and the quantity of how much to give them which is the key

i

rubbish fanciers who know nothing and rubbish birds both total loosers


oh happy days

Quoted from joe61

rubbish fanciers who know nothing and rubbish birds both total loosers


oh happy days

are you talking from your own experiences.

Quoted from joe61

rubbish fanciers who sell rubbish birds both total loosers


oh happy days

That rings more of a bell, Purrrrrrrr-fect!!!!!

oh happy days

Arthur Fonzarelli  8)

Quoted from joe61

rubbish fanciers who know nothing and rubbish birds both total loosers


oh happy days

here we go again !! more words of wisdom from the jackson twins!!!!!!!!!!!!....

last year i started off with 28 & ended with 28 and always gave them a good feed friday & again some sead around 4pm & believe this to help as they have plenty in reserve if its a bad race & we had a fair few & those which choose to belly em had big losses,dont get me wrong they were little buggers to get in at the shorter races but each to there own.

well guys only you know if you are a winner or a loser its not here we go again mick its a fact in all walks of life there are winners and losers the winners know what they are doing the losers dont


ps im not a twin

oh happy days

Quoted from joe61

rubbish fanciers who know nothing and rubbish birds both total loosers


oh happy days

"we breed as much rubbish nowdays as we have always done" jeff kirkland [also a "rubbish fancier" according to you?]total merde everyone loses birds

lack of basket training [i know guys who are training their young birds before they start running just for the first race, "for the averages"]also feeding plays a part if its a short race, guys feed light, then the bird gets stuck out with no reserves to fall back on,then it goes down.
i have more hairs on my chest than a coconut mat and i have seen local birds that thin [for faster trapping]i could shave my hairs with their keels,what chance have they? if it goes wrong

listen you drunk in the kabab shop jeff kirkland is a top fancier i never said anything about the man you mentioned his name so i think you should apologise


oh happy days

EDUCATION  if the fancier does not have the education how can he educate his young birds
                 Im not talking about some 15 yearold novice  Im talking about guys who have been in the game a good number of years  and cant recognise a sick bird till it falls off the perch  , By that time its been in a race basket  and has likley spread it on to halve the birds in the area and the knock on affect goes round and round.  Education

Quoted from joe61

listen you drunk in the kabab shop jeff kirkland is a top fancier i never said anything about the man you mentioned his name so i think you should apologise


oh happy days

apologise,
                you cause more problems than most perhaps you should even up that chip on your shoulder.

Quoted from joe61

rubbish fanciers who know nothing and rubbish birds both total loosers


oh happy days

i just love your posts so much thought goes into them its amazing what u can come up when u sit down and think about  :) i don't mind pll coming on here when they have put some thought into there posts even when u disagree with them or when they make u think about something they wrote  but by god Joe u have me thinking for hours with comments like these thank you  :P

Quoted from just ask me

i just love your posts so much thought goes into them its amazing what u can come up when u sit down and think about  :) i don't mind pll coming on here when they have put some thought into there posts even when u disagree with them or when they make u think about something they wrote but by god Joe u have me thinking for hours with comments like these thank you  :P

Sarcastic Bugger  ;D

Quoted from vallance lofts

Sarcastic Bugger  ;D

who me sarcastic never

Quoted from joe61

listen you drunk in the kabab shop jeff kirkland is a top fancier i never said anything about the man you mentioned his name so i think you should apologise


oh happy days

you stated that only rubbish fanciers with rubbish birds lose any, since everyone looses birds [apart from you, if i remember right you have no birds ]and since jeff kirkland stated that we all breed rubbish as much nowdays as we always did [or words to that effect] my comments stand ,as to the comment apologise , who to you?,with the amount of rubbish you have spewed out it will never happen,i never stated that you said anything about the man, this is my last comment to you on this subject,it was a good post until you pulled your normal stunt and infected it with your  garbage,why don't you input something of use to this post?[but wait to i come on before you post more rubbish you keyboard hero]

(Keyboard Hero)  ;D ;D ;D Thats a new one Chrisss, ;D ;D ;D ;D .

yeh sorry about that [and to all the other guys on this post,bar one of course!!!!] i get very hacked off when you have a useful post like this and it gets polluted by rubbish

trouble is Chriss, its people like him, his family and side kicks that keep selling the rubbish from unproven pigeons that contributes to the losses!

Phil

key board hero i like that and my family are all very well thank you phil i just love you guys you must all be winners wow

oh happy days

Quoted from Gertcha

That rings more of a bell, Purrrrrrrr-fect!!!!!

oh happy days

Arthur Fonzarelli  8)

..............ohhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! meaow!!!!!!!! mr bengal man!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i would love to race against some of you ACES i would smack your little bums real hard ha ha


oh happy days

Quoted from joe61

i would love to race against some of you ACES i would smack your little bums real hard ha ha


oh happy days

talk is cheap, put up or shut up, you talk a good race

Quoted from joe61

i would love to race against some of you ACES i would smack your little bums real hard ha ha


oh happy days

has anyone anywhere got any idea what these halfwitted comments have to do with this post?

Quoted from mark

talk is cheap, put up or shut up, you talk a good race

Mark - SPOT ON!!!!!

stress then illness is the reason we loose so many / and going by some of the coments on here some of you are going to be sick very soon  .

in your dreams

Quoted from mosslands1

stress then illness is the reason we loose so many / and going by some of the coments on here some of you are going to be sick very soon  .

this is my first years racing young birds, the sad fact of life nowdays is that despite the effort i[and the birds] have put in i expect to be sick at the end of the year ,i am starting with a lot of help from guys on this site,with a team of 30,i want some sort of old bird team for next year ,so i will stop if/when i get to 16,do you think i am right or should i fight to the bitter end and maybe end up with nothing

chrisss myhumble opinion would be fly the 1st 3 races to 100mile and stop all your young cocks and save them for next year...

your just kinky mick

Quoted from gangster

chrisss myhumble opinion would be fly the 1st 3 races to 100mile and stop all your young cocks and save them for next year...

you still need a even amount of hens mick as she said its her 1st season yb racing.

i have 38 young birds all must the the race programme to the coast unless unfit or injured, and most of my hens will be off over channel.

Chrisss In the fed I fly in it has been proved and proved again that y/birds more than benefit from having 4-5 races under their wing. Many a fancier that have tried to bolster their old bird team with youngsters that have only had a race or two only to become unstuck with them as yearlings. Pick your days that you race them, leave them at home if the temperature is 30C or more and beware of strong tail winds.

Quoted from OLDYELLOW

i have 38 young birds all must the the race programme to the coast unless unfit or injured, and most of my hens will be off over channel.

i understand where you are coming from on this, but i have no old birds at all [to race,the ones i have will be 7/8 years old next year]thats why i was asking about stopping some if the losses get to bad,but by the look of things if they don't go this year,i might lose them next year as yearlings anyway!!!

I would like my YBs to do the programme, but I know that the wing moult will stop most of my 1st round after 3/4 races, and my 2nd round won't be ready for the 1st races, but will hopefully carry me thro to the end of the programme. I think the distance they fly as a YB has little bearing on likely performance as yearlings. My best YB only got 4 to 82 miles but did 5/399 as a yearling, with one mistake at 220 miles; another did 5/187 miles as a YB and 6/399 as a yearling, no mistakes; and yet another did 5/187 miles as a YB, one mistake at 60 miles (my fault), and was dropped at 5/330 miles as a yearling.

Last year I changed my YB training to evening and, after the 1st couple of tosses, to all-weather ie: starting in, come through or finishing in a patch of heavy-ish rain, strong tail- or head- or cross- wind, or rolling thunder & lightning or full cloud cover. I also trained with another clubmate flying further than me, so I got in break-training too. Never went further than 20 miles.

This year I paid more attention to schooling them, especially basket / trap / feed, to hard-wire 'liberation straight-home, straight-in and fed' in them.  I've also managed to reduce my 'losses off the top' from 6 last year to 2 this year through that, because the first week they ever got outside the loft was in a basket.

Continued my training as last year; started 1st round at 10 miles, but reckoned I just insulted their intelligence, they came out the basket, did a 1/2 turn in the sky and headed for home - all home before me. So moved them to 20 miles, same; so picked a 20mph headwind day - they took longer to get started for home, but again, all home before me. Last night, lighter headwind, with the threat of rain in it, low continuous raincloud cover, they took about 5 minutes to get their bearings (too long) then straight home and again, all home before me.

My training is done after work, so I only go every 2nd night.

  

Quoted from chrisss

i understand where you are coming from on this, but i have no old birds at all [to race,the ones i have will be 7/8 years old next year]thats why i was asking about stopping some if the losses get to bad,but by the look of things if they don't go this year,i might lose them next year as yearlings anyway!!!

our best yearlings have raced very little as young birds
in fact one of them had only been to 2 x 55 mile racea - two others 1 x 55 mile race - 2 have been to 270 miles as yearlings - and the other is currently in Lille awaiting liberation - having also been to 270 miles

all the yearlings I lost this year - barring one - did the full young bird programme to 240 miles last year

As long as youngbirds are well educated it doesn't matter how many races they have.
With youngbirds its all about education for the future!

Phil

Quoted from chrisss

this is my first years racing young birds, the sad fact of life nowdays is that despite the effort i[and the birds] have put in i expect to be sick at the end of the year ,i am starting with a lot of help from guys on this site,with a team of 30,i want some sort of old bird team for next year ,so i will stop if/when i get to 16,do you think i am right or should i fight to the bitter end and maybe end up with nothing

It really depends if you are after a race team or team to breed from.If you have stock birds race the full programme providing the birds are in good condition.If you want to breed of em next year then it may be wise to stop a few pairs half way through .Just my opinion i was in the same boat last year .I lost my stock birds when i moved house and have raced all my yearlings this year i will finish with maybe 3 pair worth breeding from providing the ones i sent to lessay get home tomorrow.My youngbird team is down to 20 after today i started racing with 25 .I did win today and took 3rd and 4th last week but to be hohnest i would forgo the race positions on these early races and rather have the birds home.