Young Bird Losses

[calder boy]

On a serious note are we all so great a fancier that have the answers? That to blame imaginary fanciers for their stupidities, lack of knowledge is easy? That they are causes in the main for our losses? The detrimental downward spiralling of our so called sport?

 

Hands ups if you are one of the stupid ones etc. PLEASE!

 

Isn't it true that we go down the club and hear such each week? The umpteen arguments put forward and agreed with. Isn't it the case that nigh every one says the same! the same ole rig ma roll each week!

 

Isn't it the fact that our beloved birds, our friends, have had the crap knocked out of them! In homing ability, in constitution and immunity and much other!

Who dare speak up and say different? … Let's hear them say 'Ah I know it is for a fact it IS those stupid ones. the lazy ones, those that know no better and haven't got a clue! they breed culls and youngster to lose, to clutter up the town centres and foul up the pavements etc. If so why aren't you helping them? Most won't or don't because they are afraid that then they might beat them each week. Now that is a sensible and realistic fact.

 

Isn't it a fact that one gets comfortable with habits, good or bad, and nigh every one does like 'Change'.

 

Another fact is that most will make excuses, any thing or one to remain the same! A silent hope and a wing and prayer that it will get better! That 'He or She' is different, and Not one of them!

P.s. YOU ARE!

 

Doesn't, or can't one see, when the tide turned big time! Or is it the case of 'None so blind as those that will not see'!?

The truth of the matter, the fact is, excuses are to enable one to stay the same!

 

I tell my daughters when they have a problem 'What would you say to a friend if they asked you the same'?

Further take a sheet of paper and smother it in dots. Now those dots represent 'People / folks! Circle one dot and regard that as 'You'.

 

Now, to you. the other people are classed as 'Them'. But you to yourself believe you are different! Yes NOT one of the 'Them'! But isn't the truth that to all the others people you are one of them!

 

Of course those that blame anything and every thing to are those that usually want to stay the same. have no change!

 

So thing back as to when and why 'It is a fact that our beloved birds, our friends have had the crap knocked out of them! In homing ability, in constitution and immunity!

 

There are only, in reality, two things that we can't control in our sport. The B.O.P. problem and the weather - climate change!

So if we can't control the wind, we must adjust our sails.

Ah we can't, because most would rather moan and blame the senseless one lol.

Well said Sir

[philg50]

Ok Roland i am up for change ,adjust your sails what do you suggest , Breed less (limit rings) dont train ,limit birds sent to a race ( god !! we cant do that it hints of fairness ) dont race young birds out ie ,pick a race point 80 mile out and send for same race point for 6 weeks ( education ,not racing out for the sake of nationals with young doos ) i am afraid now adays birds are bred to compensate for losses.I dont pretend to have the answers but there is some that are not up for change ,sayings like its always been this way from a large majority stop change.

[Roland]

philg50 first of I'd think of is why? --- only one answer to why is because. If it's changed then there must be a reason or reasons.

It's like 'If its there it is there because'. that's a fact.

Yonks ago the Jannsens father was adamant that widowerhood would never be accepted in his loft. Stated it was unnatural. Well I'd say 'Not so' in as much anything natural can and will be compensated after the race season … or before.

However it was very true in his day, as in the 60's to the 80's, to now that the fact is the top flyers swap or borrow birds. Why... Because it is a natural progression of an healthy out cross. It is only a money making machine that sales G/ CH. even Double GG Children of the sell big time for big money. So one buys in more of the same way bred. That for starters fills lofts up with culls. Fact! Never mind the ones that win - if true, and sometime it is, mainly because the law of averages makes it so as most lofts are fill with garbage! So the standard is derisively. a 100 or more to obtain the same results. Don't laugh, just look around. Look at the losses etc. etc.

A good fancier on here stated 'I will send you some youngsters … after I make sure that they are looking good. No youngsters will leave this loft if not up to it'! So then it says in reality some, or many, aren't up to it!

 

In the 50's 60's 150.000 fanciers sent far, far less than the birds sent today! When a team of 12 raced the whole program. Likewise the y/b's UP TO 11250 mile or more. seasons end the problem was so very often the fancier had too many birds! fact. When a pigeon had to earn its perch, let alone a nest box. Birds were swapped etc. or bought in cheap so no breeding was closely related.

Then stud sold pigeons at the 'Working man's' price.

Many a good team was bought in August or September off late bred, when the fields were ripe for the fielding … Sadly no longer applicable. But these later bred birds were bred in the pink from proven birds that HAD flown the programme!

So firstly, and a big thing, would be for many a fancier to swap a dozen or so cocks / hens and start breeding some constitution and try to get an immunity back by not reaching for the bottle or pills. All and everything can be bought of a super market shelf if must be!

I would, AND DID allow the ill one to stay in the loft. Let others MIX have or get the same... Lost 2 in years back and not in the last three years. BUT the loft gained an immunity... saved me money and I had great healthy and conditioned birds.

Now EVERY loft has it's own ailments. Like the pigeons then do. They may well be carriers, but not affected TO ANY extent. In another loft, or introduced birds may falter. Don't swear at the person you got it from, or them swear at you! It is in the loft. Was a time when after a week or two new arrivals immunity got over it. They bred that immunity in their youngsters. fact. Now it's a bottle, or culled. What's that stupid saying 'If others can then so SHOULD MINE...' Be it racing or getting fit or over an ailment. that bogey of 'It cost a lot, so it must be good and soon will throw back a winner or two' rubbish!

Only healthy pigeons win races! If held up by pills and stuff in the drinker, then as soon as its asked the question they go down.

 

Race programs need to be started later. Full stop. Pigeons need to get back to a natural environment. For their own, and for our own good.

end of rant for a minute lol

[Dooheed 5]

Ok Roland i am up for change ,adjust your sails what do you suggest , Breed less (limit rings) dont train ,limit birds sent to a race ( god !! we cant do that it hints of fairness ) dont race young birds out ie ,pick a race point 80 mile out and send for same race point for 6 weeks ( education ,not racing out for the sake of nationals with young doos ) i am afraid now adays birds are bred to compensate for losses.I dont pretend to have the answers but there is some that are not up for change ,sayings like its always been this way from a large majority stop change.

No use mouthing off on here about changes Phyllis !! Put your suggestions for change forward as proposals to the annual Fed Agm and make a effort to attend so you can voice your opinion where it matters and see how they do ?? Other wise your wasting your time

[grdkeith]

Ok Roland i am up for change ,adjust your sails what do you suggest , Breed less (limit rings) dont train ,limit birds sent to a race ( god !! we cant do that it hints of fairness ) dont race young birds out ie ,pick a race point 80 mile out and send for same race point for 6 weeks ( education ,not racing out for the sake of nationals with young doos ) i am afraid now adays birds are bred to compensate for losses.I dont pretend to have the answers but there is some that are not up for change ,sayings like its always been this way from a large majority stop change.

 

Can't say I am in agreement with most of what you say but for debates sake,how many rings in your opinion and how many birds limited to a race,and would 6 times to same race point educate more than the present way

[Roland]

I never raced young birds for a variety of reasons. Hence didn't bother to toss them. Why! They ranged for miles on end. 6 mile radius etc. What does one really think in regards TEACHING THEM! They would fly with love and zest and pick around the garden etc. CONTENTED!

Others went around the circle. Now most like to sent in small steps and loose some each time.

I - like many more used let them up with a federation near at hand.

When loft fit as yearling they went straight into a race. First time ever in a basket! Always held their own. Losses was about 25% - 33%. They never got lost after. Why and how. Because we don't even know how they home! It's a natural thing with them … well was to we have hammered it out of them.

 

Now all race liberations- where possible - should be head headed into the wind. Feds should be in the shape of a Viking ship as once proven -- I know, powers to be wanting to gain any and every advantage won't allow that.

Like the Midlands and clubs South of them should fly up the West Coast. Break after the Cotswolds and spread. Fair and more sensible racing. N.W or South West same.

Edited August 15, 2018 by Roland

[Roland]

grdkeith as for Rings, Are we saying as many as the youngster we are prepared to lose?

Or are you saying 'I want to only breed from proven birds, having no more than 2 nests tops.

If you have 12 pairs and finish up with 6 pairs that is still a lose of 50%! So does one breed culls to copensate losses? Hav 50 pairs for example? Of course not, for a cull is a cull and costs just as much to breed and feed etc. as a good one.

So each and every loft should work on a 'Yard Stick'. First yard stick would be the parents that bred those lost. Change the pairings if they had flown well. no more than thrice though. So after the age of 4 you have birds well flown... but not breeding the goods. The best pigeon that I every had didn't breed piddly pip. He had several hens. Even bought in a proven flyer and breeder... Never bred oat any good. Now two strays, believe it believe it not, have far more chances of breeding a good birds than what's in most fanciers lofts.

Indeed 6 pairs of unrelated strays may well form the basis of a very good loft. As has been proven many times.

Edited August 15, 2018 by Roland

[Roland]

Dooheed 5 in a few short words said an awful lot. Indeed about 40% to 50% of the truth in regards of our problem.

Edited August 15, 2018 by Roland

[Kevin73]

We go through the same angst every year for the first 3 or 4 races then it settles down once the poorly trained ,sick and stupid birds fall by the way

Problem being that they affect the flock until they are gone.

Windmills would be just another of many theories for losses imo

 

Spot on but most don't want to believe it.

[grdkeith]

grdkeith as for Rings, Are we saying as many as the youngster we are prepared to lose?

Or are you saying 'I want to only breed from proven birds, having no more than 2 nests tops.

If you have 12 pairs and finish up with 6 pairs that is still a lose of 50%! So does one breed culls to copensate losses? Hav 50 pairs for example? Of course not, for a cull is a cull and costs just as much to breed and feed etc. as a good one.

So each and every loft should work on a 'Yard Stick'. First yard stick would be the parents that bred those lost. Change the pairings if they had flown well. no more than thrice though. So after the age of 4 you have birds well flown... but not breeding the goods. The best pigeon that I every had didn't breed piddly pip. He had several hens. Even bought in a proven flyer and breeder... Never bred oat any good. Now two strays, believe it believe it not, have far more chances of breeding a good birds than what's in most fanciers lofts.

Indeed 6 pairs of unrelated strays may well form the basis of a very good loft. As has been proven many times.

 

 

Sorry Roland,as has been proven time and time again I am a simple man

So can you please keep your questions shorter? :

[budgie]

To many being bred for quantity to overcome the Bop problem.Ask yourself â˜ï¸ question what % of bad pigeon,s do you have in your loft and believe me it’s well over 90%.

[peter2010]

To many being bred for quantity to overcome the Bop problem.Ask yourself â˜ï¸ question what % of bad pigeon,s do you have in your loft and believe me it’s well over 90%.

If you dint mind me putting you on the spot when does your 90 % rule come into play ??

[Roland]

grdkeith says:

'Sorry Roland,as has been proven time and time again I am a simple man

So can you please keep your questions shorter? :

 

I think I will rest the case here regards grdkeith. As he has proven he is one that doesn't want to know, but will continue to blame the 'Unknown selfish and stupid brigade that send sick birds and ones that haven't been trained countless time'.

Maybe he could write a non fiction book explaining the causes of these unknown? :emoticon-0136-giggle:

[REDCHEQHEN]

I can guarantee fanciers send sick birds especially the green with envy ones who hope to bring down the better fliers - by infecting them. It's true, those treating with antibiotics - still send their birds. Those who don't treat but know their birds are ill - continue to send their birds. Roland you live in cloud cuckoo land if you don't think it goes on - or have rose tinted glasses

[budgie]

If you dint mind me putting you on the spot when does your 90 % rule come into play ??

Peter

How many yearlings ,2 and 3 year olds did you have going into the 2018 season and how many did u breed in 2015/16/17 that’s how to determine the 90% rule and it’s higher than that .

[grdkeith]

grdkeith says:

'Sorry Roland,as has been proven time and time again I am a simple man

So can you please keep your questions shorter? :

 

I think I will rest the case here regards grdkeith. As he has proven he is one that doesn't want to know, but will continue to blame the 'Unknown selfish and stupid brigade that send sick birds and ones that haven't been trained countless time'.

Maybe he could write a non fiction book explaining the causes of these unknown? :emoticon-0136-giggle:

 

 

Once again for you seem to have missed it,I blamed no one just gave my opinion

[Roland]

Once again for you seem to have missed it,I blamed no one just gave my opinion

 

Well you posted you do.

I ask you, if losses have become paramount and getting worse most seasons over the past 2- 3 decades, Is their a reason?

If so, then does one continue doing the same. Breed more to counteract this? Or sanely think 'Why and CHANGE is a must!

 

REDCHEQHEN I'm certainly not in a cuckoo land. Though, to be honest, I don't understand a jot as to why you post as such and lay that at my door.

 

I've known many that vaccinate for Pox early... But leave some till the first few races. Why... devastation. Plus a lot more! So please don't lay ignorance at my door step. Don't imply as a fact I don't know.

[philg50]

No use mouthing off on here about changes Phyllis !! Put your suggestions for change forward as proposals to the annual Fed Agm and make a effort to attend so you can voice your opinion where it matters and see how they do ?? Other wise your wasting your time

As i say in my post i dont pretend to have the answers or proposals in my post its all suposicion ,see what others thinks ,but you canna get past the point in your post directed to me of FED and AGM because other than that i shouldnt have an opinion in your waay of thinking ,well i think you should look up the meaning of open forum because laddie i will have my opinion regardless of you ,i might be wearing the way of 70 and of poor health but my manners hinna left me best regards .

[grdkeith]

Well you posted you do.

I ask you, if losses have become paramount and getting worse most seasons over the past 2- 3 decades, Is their a reason?

If so, then does one continue doing the same. Breed more to counteract this? Or sanely think 'Why and CHANGE is a must!

 

REDCHEQHEN I'm certainly not in a cuckoo land. Though, to be honest, I don't understand a jot as to why you post as such and lay that at my door.

 

I've known many that vaccinate for Pox early... But leave some till the first few races. Why... devastation. Plus a lot more! So please don't lay ignorance at my door step. Don't imply as a fact I do

 

 

Please enlighten me and show me where

[Roland]

grdkeith Now you're just being silly! If you can't, or don't want to debate, to learn or offer sensible posts, I suggest you just watch and learn … No, don't be a 'John' and try and pick a post out and rubbish it... it will only further the hole you are digging...

It is this very attitude of not wanting to change or an misunderstanding, this wanton desire to carry on as Norm at any cost (lol) that is helping and entrenching the sad demise of this sport!

Edited August 16, 2018 by Roland

[grdkeith]

grdkeith Now you're just being silly! If you can't, or don't want to debate, to learn or offer sensible posts, I suggest you just watch and learn … No, don't be a 'John' and try and pick a post out and rubbish it... it will only further the hole you are digging...

It is this very attitude of not wanting to change or an misunderstanding, this wanton desire to carry on as Norm at any cost (lol) that is helping and entrenching the sad demise of this sport!

 

 

Roland,I refuse to enter into a battle of wits with an unarmed man

[Roland]

Tell me grdkeith, as a man of truth, how many youngster have you lost so far this season? Indeed the last 2 or 3 years etc.

 

I'll be honest and tell you, I average 2 or 3 off the top of the loft each year. there was a fantastic pigeon loft over the road from me... an old dialect Cinema. They never caught and removed the hundreds of pigeons when pulled down, so the street got an enmass of pigeon nesting and breeding on the eves of our houses.

Me! Over the last few years I'd I lost less than 8 per year!

Many still shape up nicely in others fanciers lofts, breeding decent and good pigeons. I could go on, but self praise is no praise … but you can also take into account that all my pigeons went first time in the basket as yearlings or 2/o's to 150 - 200 miles in a race. Mainly I was in top 6. Never won a race like that admitted. But when you think my location was between 12 and 20 miles out on a limb. That 3 members alone sent an average 200 birds … these lofts were within a couple of hundred yards of each other. And there are up to 29 members. I've been in or around pigeon for 64 years. Have many great genuine results etc.

 

Now be truthful oh wise one, as I am apparently afflicted, an unarmed man, how many youngsters do you breed each year? and what are your losses!... start with this season etc.!

Edited August 16, 2018 by Roland

[Froog]

philg50 first of I'd think of is why? --- only one answer to why is because. If it's changed then there must be a reason or reasons.

It's like 'If its there it is there because'. that's a fact.

Yonks ago the Jannsens father was adamant that widowerhood would never be accepted in his loft. Stated it was unnatural. Well I'd say 'Not so' in as much anything natural can and will be compensated after the race season … or before.

However it was very true in his day, as in the 60's to the 80's, to now that the fact is the top flyers swap or borrow birds. Why... Because it is a natural progression of an healthy out cross. It is only a money making machine that sales G/ CH. even Double GG Children of the sell big time for big money. So one buys in more of the same way bred. That for starters fills lofts up with culls. Fact! Never mind the ones that win - if true, and sometime it is, mainly because the law of averages makes it so as most lofts are fill with garbage! So the standard is derisively. a 100 or more to obtain the same results. Don't laugh, just look around. Look at the losses etc. etc.

A good fancier on here stated 'I will send you some youngsters … after I make sure that they are looking good. No youngsters will leave this loft if not up to it'! So then it says in reality some, or many, aren't up to it!

 

In the 50's 60's 150.000 fanciers sent far, far less than the birds sent today! When a team of 12 raced the whole program. Likewise the y/b's UP TO 11250 mile or more. seasons end the problem was so very often the fancier had too many birds! fact. When a pigeon had to earn its perch, let alone a nest box. Birds were swapped etc. or bought in cheap so no breeding was closely related.

Then stud sold pigeons at the 'Working man's' price.

Many a good team was bought in August or September off late bred, when the fields were ripe for the fielding … Sadly no longer applicable. But these later bred birds were bred in the pink from proven birds that HAD flown the programme!

So firstly, and a big thing, would be for many a fancier to swap a dozen or so cocks / hens and start breeding some constitution and try to get an immunity back by not reaching for the bottle or pills. All and everything can be bought of a super market shelf if must be!

I would, AND DID allow the ill one to stay in the loft. Let others MIX have or get the same... Lost 2 in years back and not in the last three years. BUT the loft gained an immunity... saved me money and I had great healthy and conditioned birds.

Now EVERY loft has it's own ailments. Like the pigeons then do. They may well be carriers, but not affected TO ANY extent. In another loft, or introduced birds may falter. Don't swear at the person you got it from, or them swear at you! It is in the loft. Was a time when after a week or two new arrivals immunity got over it. They bred that immunity in their youngsters. fact. Now it's a bottle, or culled. What's that stupid saying 'If others can then so SHOULD MINE...' Be it racing or getting fit or over an ailment. that bogey of 'It cost a lot, so it must be good and soon will throw back a winner or two' rubbish!

Only healthy pigeons win races! If held up by pills and stuff in the drinker, then as soon as its asked the question they go down.

 

Race programs need to be started later. Full stop. Pigeons need to get back to a natural environment. For their own, and for our own good.

end of rant for a minute lol

Best reply ive ever heard on here, the bit about each loft having its own ailments, and any birds introduced can fall ill is what any pigeon fancier knows, but never admits. it also works the other way, ybs bought in can wreak havik with your own.

[grdkeith]

Tell me grdkeith, as a man of truth, how many youngster have you lost so far this season? Indeed the last 2 or 3 years etc.

 

I'll be honest and tell you, I average 2 or 3 off the top of the loft each year. there was a fantastic pigeon loft over the road from me... an old dialect Cinema. They never caught and removed the hundreds of pigeons when pulled down, so the street got an enmass of pigeon nesting and breeding on the eves of our houses.

Me! Over the last few years I'd I lost less than 8 per year!

Many still shape up nicely in others fanciers lofts, breeding decent and good pigeons. I could go on, but self praise is no praise … but you can also take into account that all my pigeons went first time in the basket as yearlings or 2/o's to 150 - 200 miles in a race. Mainly I was in top 6. Never won a race like that admitted. But when you think my location was between 12 and 20 miles out on a limb. That 3 members alone sent an average 200 birds … these lofts were within a couple of hundred yards of each other. And there are up to 29 members. I've been in or around pigeon for 64 years. Have many great genuine results etc.

 

Now be truthful oh wise one, as I am apparently afflicted, an unarmed man, how many youngsters do you breed each year? and what are your losses!... start with this season etc.!

 

 

I refer you to my previous post

[Roland]

I refer you to my previous post

 

Oh I see … more of the same … Nonsense! lol. Yep you have been promoted to the class of a 'John'.