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#1 User is offline   Roland 

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 09:16 AM

John Hunter needn't reply lol.

Inbreeding and line breeding
What are inbreeding and line breeding, and what effect do they have?
In genetic terminology, inbreeding is the breeding of two animals that are related to each other. In its opposite, out crossing, the two parents are totally unrelated. Since all pure breeds of animal trace back to a relatively limited number of foundation dogs, all pure breeding is by this definition inbreeding, although the term is not generally used to refer to matings where a common ancestor does not occur behind sire and dam in a four or five generation pedigree.
Breeders of pure bred livestock have introduced a term, line breeding, to cover the milder forms of inbreeding. Exactly what the difference is between line breeding and inbreeding tends to be defined differently for each species and often for each breed within the species. On this definition, inbreeding at its most restrictive applies to what would be considered unquestioned incest in human beings - parent to offspring or a mating between full siblings. Some people and line breeding call uncle-niece, aunt-nephew, half sibling matings, and first cousin matings inbreeding by others.
What does inbreeding (in the genetic sense) do? Basically, it increases the probability that the two copies of any given gene will be identical and derived from the same ancestor. Technically, the animal is homozygous for that gene. The heterozygous animal has some differences in the two copies of the gene Remember that each animal (or plant, for that matter) has two copies of any given gene (two alleles at each locus, if you want to get technical), one derived from the father and one from the mother. If the father and mother are related, there is a chance that the two genes in the offspring are both identical copies contributed by the common ancestor. This is neither good nor bad in itself. Consider, for instance, the gene for PRA (progressive retinal atrophy), which causes progressive blindness. Carriers have normal vision, but if one is mated to another carrier, one in four of the puppies will have PRA and go blind. Inbreeding will increase both the number of affected dogs (bad) and the number of genetically normal dogs (good) at the expense of carriers. Inbreeding can thus bring these undesirable recessive genes to the surface, where they can be removed from the breeding pool.
Unfortunately, we cannot breed anything based on a single gene - the genes come as a package. We may inbreed and rigorously remove, say pups instance with PRA or even their parents or nest - mates from the breeding stock. However, remember inbreeding tends to make all genes more homozygous. In at least one breed, an effort to remove the PRA-causing gene resulted in the surfacing of a completely different and previously unsuspected health problem. It is easier and faster to lose genes (sometimes very desirable genes) from the breeding pool when inbreeding is practiced than when a more open breeding system is used. In other words, inbreeding will tend to produce more nearly homozygous animals, but generally some of the homozygous pairs will be "good" and others will be "bad.”
Furthermore, there may be genes where heterozygosity is an advantage. There are several variant haemoglobin types in human beings, for instance, where one homozygote suffers from some type of illness, the other homozygote is vulnerable to malaria, and the heterozygote is generally malaria-resistant with little or no negative health impacts from a single copy of the non-standard hemoglobin gene. A more widespread case is the so-called major histocompatibility complex (MHC), a group of genes where heterozygosity seems to improve disease resistance.
Is there a way of measuring inbreeding? Wright developed what is called the inbreeding coefficient. This is related to the probability that both copies of any given gene are derived from the same ancestor. A cold outcross (in dogs, probably a first-generation cross between two purebreds of different, unrelated breeds would be the best approximation) would have an inbreeding coefficient of 0. Note that this dog would not be heterozygous at every locus. There are genes shared with every multicellular organism, genes shared with all animals, genes shared with all animals with backbones, genes shared with all four-limbed animals (including most fish and all amphibians, reptiles, birds and mammals) and with all mammals. Although the DNA might differ slightly, the proteins produced would be functionally the same. Further, the chances are that our dogs with inbreeding coefficient = 0 would still be homozygous for some genes shared by all dogs. The inbreeding coefficient thus specifically refers to those genes that are variable (more than one possible form) in the species and even the breed being considered.
An inbreeding coefficient of 1 (rare in mammals) would result if the only matings practiced over many generations were between full brother and full sister.
The figure shows how the inbreeding coefficient changes with generations of brother-sister matings. As a general rule, this type of mating cannot be kept up beyond 8-10 generations, as by that time the rate of breeding success is very low. However, the rare survivors may go on to found genetically uniform populations. This has been done in laboratory rodents, producing inbred strains of mice and rats so similar genetically that they easily tolerate skin or organ grafts from other animals from the same inbred strain. However, the process of inbreeding used to create these strains generally results in loss of fertility (first seen in these mammals as a reduction in litter size) which actually kills off the majority of the strains between 8 and 12 generations of this extent of inbreeding. A handful of the initial strains survive this bottleneck, and these are the inbred laboratory strains. However, very little selection other than for viability and fertility is possible during this process. You wind up with animals homozygous for a more or less random selection of whatever genes happened to be in the strains that survived, all of which derive from the parents of the initial pair.
Note that two very much-inbred parents can produce offspring that have very low inbreeding coefficients if the inbred parents do not have ancestors in common. This, however, assumes that mates are available who are not strongly inbred on a common ancestor. If the parents are related to each other, their own inbreeding coefficients will indeed increase the inbreeding coefficients of their offspring. The critical factor is the coefficient of kinship, which is the inbreeding coefficient of a hypothetical offspring of the two individuals. Inbreeding has become an important consideration for wildlife conservationists. Many wild populations are in danger of extinction due to some combination of habitat destruction and hunting of the animals, either to protect humans or because the animal parts are considered valuable. (Examples are ivory, rhinoceros horn, and infant apes for the pet trade, as well as meat hunting.) For some of these animals the only real hope of survival is captive breeding programs. However, the number of animals available in such captive breeding programs, especially at a single zoo, is often limited. Biologists are concerned that the resulting inbred populations would not have all of the genes found in the wild populations, and thus lose some flexibility in responding to change. In reaction to this threat, they have developed networks such that animals can be exchanged among captive breeding populations in such a way as to minimize the overall inbreeding of the captive population. The idea is to select pairs in such a way that the inbreeding coefficient of the offspring is kept as low as possible. Most elementary genetics books have instructions for calculating the inbreeding coefficient from the pedigree. (For more information, see Dr. Armstrong's site, Significant Relationships.) However, these procedures have two major limitations. First, they are not really designed for cases where there are multiple common ancestors, though they can be used separately for each common ancestor and the results added. Second, they become impossibly complex as the length of the pedigree increases. It is by no means uncommon in dogs, for instance, to have pedigrees which can be researched in the AKC stud book and the KC Gazette and which go back to foundation dogs born around the turn of the century - perhaps 30 or even 40 generations earlier. With this type of long pedigree, foundation animals may appear a million times or more in the pedigree. With this in mind, a computer program called GENES was developed by Dr. Robert Lacy for the calculation of the inbreeding coefficient, kinship coefficients among animals in the breeding pool, percent contributions of varying founding ancestors, and related output, assuming full pedigrees to the foundation stock were available for all animals currently in the breeding population. For captive breeding populations, the less inbreeding the better, and this is the way the program is used. In pure bred livestock, the situation is a little different - we want homozygosity for those genes, which create a desirable similarity to the breed standard. Wright's defence of inbreeding was based on this fact. However, inbreeding tends to remove those heterozygotes, which are beneficial (e.g., the MHC) as well as increasing undesirable as well as desirable homozygotes. The practice is most dangerous in the potential increase of homozygous health problems which are not obvious on inspection, but which shorten the life span or decrease the quality of life for the animal. I do not at the present time have other dog breeds for comparison, but I recently submitted a Shetland sheepdog pedigree database to Dr. Armstrong for calculation of true inbreeding coefficients. This database was based on full pedigrees of all AKC Shetland Sheepdogs that had sired 10 or more breed champions (males) or produced 5 or more (females.) These top producing animals were set up as the current living population (a somewhat artificial assumption, as the dogs involved where whelped from 1930 to after 1990.) I would love to see some comparisons with other breeds.

John, the ten year old needs time here lol.

Inbreeding, Line breeding and Crossbreeding
from NSAE NEWS VOL. 1 N6- December 12, 1997

INBREEDING's purpose is to fix certain traits or the influence of certain ancestors upon the progeny. This procedure varies in degree from intense close breeding to mild line breeding. Although inbreeding can be detrimental to fertility, vigour, and athletic ability within the offspring, it can also result in true-breeding strains of horses (that consistently pass important traits to their offspring). Because a process of inbreeding formed most breeds, the breeding of purebred horses is, my definition, a form of inbreeding. Some breeds are more inbred than others. (Degree of inbreeding depends on the number of common ancestors, how far back in the pedigree they appear, and how often each common ancestor occurs.)
From a genetic viewpoint, inbreeding results in an increase of the number of homozygous gene pairs in the offspring. Homozygous refers to a condition where two paired chromosomes have the same allelle (gene type) at a corresponding point. Because two close relatives tend to have more of the same alleles (by virtue of inheritance) than two unrelated individuals, their mating provides a greater chance for identical alleles to be paired within their offspring. This increase in homozygosity is directly related to the appearance of both desirable and detrimental characteristics that were not necessarily apparent in the sire and dam.
When horses are inbred haphazardly, without culling of inferior stock, many undesirable traits may become predominant in their offspring. For example, the inbred horse's ability to resist disease and his overall performance capacity are often depressed. The growth rate of the inbred foal, and the average mature size within the inbred herd, frequently decreases. Non - selective inbreeding is directly related to a depressed fertility rate, an increase in abortion and stillbirth. Some basic principles of genetics show why these traits are directly related to inbreeding.
When two unrelated birds are mated, the chances of unidentical alleles combining within the resulting embryo are high. On the other hand, mating close relatives increases the pairing of identical alleles (increases homozygosity). The effect of increased homozygosity is a decrease in the number of heterozygous gene pairs and, subsequently, a decline in heterosis (i.e., loss of vigour and fertility). Although the reason for this allelic interaction is not clear, geneticists believe that its presence contributes to the overall quality of an individual. Therefore, as homozygosity increases within the inbred herd, physical quality controlled by over - dominant alleles declines.

Roland any undesirable genes affecting the bird’s overall vigour and fertility are recessive. Fortunately, they have no influence in the heterozygous state, since the effect of the recessive allele is completely hidden by the effect of the corresponding dominant allele. Because of the overall effect of inbreeding is an increase in homozygosity! it increases the number of homozygous recessives. Hence, the effects of undesirable recessive genes begin to surface. Inbreeding does not create undesirable trait, it exposes recessive alleles for hidden weaknesses, which are present within the sire and dam. Because successful inbreeding demands the culling of inferior breeding stock over many generations (to help eliminate some of the undesirable recessive genes from the herd), it may not be feasible for some breeders. Not only is the time factor impractical for most breeders, the intense culling often necessary may be an economic problem. Additionally, the traits, which tend to surface within the inbred birds (such as depressed growth rate and decreased size, (reminds me of ‘Young Bird Sickness that!) contrast sharply with what many breeders select for. Therefore, the breeder must be objective when the need to cull arises.
Perhaps the greatest advantage of inbreeding is that it increases the pre - potency of individuals within a herd / flock and consequently helps to create distinct true-breeding strains or families. This prepotency (the ability of a stallion or broodmare, for example, to stamp desirable characteristics upon their offspring with a high degree of predictability) is the result of the parent being homozygous for important desirable traits. When such a parent carries two identical alleles on corresponding points of a chromosome pair, he transmits that allele to the same chromosome point within his offspring. If two such parents are mated, the offspring will always possess the same desirable trait. Therefore, as inbreeding increases homozygosity, it also enhances prepotency. (This is advantageous only if the parents are homozygous for desirable traits.)
As mentioned previously, inbreeding exposes certain weaknesses within the inbred herd. Uncovering these undesirable traits can be an important tool for the overall improvement within a large breeding program. By setting certain selection guidelines, and by carefully eliminating inbred individuals which show inherits weaknesses, the breeder can slowly remove any undesirable recessive genes from their herd. They will find that vigour and fertility are actually improved when inbreeding is accompanied by careful selection.
A successful inbreeding program requires good foundation stock and severe culling over many years. For this reason, experienced breeders who operate large farms for the production of superior proponent breeding stock usually practice inbreeding. It can also be used to establish breeds, or true-breeding types, with respect to certain characteristics such as colour or size.
A breeding system, which uses extreme inbreeding, such as mating between siblings or between parents and offspring, is referred to as CLOSE BREEDING. The detrimental effects of inbreeding (such as decrease in vigour, fertility, athletic ability and size) are usually exaggerated in a close breeding system. This is especially true when average breeding stock is used and little culling has been implemented. Close breeding can produce extremely good, or extremely poor, results. Success and failure depend on factors such as planning, foundation stock, emphasis on culling, and completeness of pedigree and performance records, etc. Haphazard close breeding could be very detrimental to the overall quality of the resulting offspring. To avoid disaster, a careful study of the merits and weaknesses of the breeding stock should precede a close breeding program. Only the most outstanding mares and stallions can be used with any degree of safety in a long-term close breeding program.
Close breeding is a valuable tool in genetic research, since it quickly exposes hidden gene types that an individual carries. Because of its extreme nature and the chance, that it may suddenly cause undesirable effects in the offspring. Horse breeders do not often use close breeding. Some breeders, who operate large and well-organized program, might utilize close breeding if they progeny test their stallions. (One method of progeny testing a sire is to mate him to a large group of his own daughters. A study of the offspring determines whether he carries undesirable genes hidden in the heterozygous state.) After a stallion proves that he is of superior gene type, the experienced breeder may choose to continue the close breeding to increase prepotency of future breeding stock.
LINE BREEDING, the most conservative form of inbreeding, is usually associated with slower improvement and limited risk of producing undesirable individuals. It can involve matings between closely or distantly related horses, but it does not emphasize continuous sire-daughter, dam-son, or brother-sister matings. The main purpose of line breeding is to transmit a large percentage of one outstanding ancestor's genes from generation to generation without causing an increase in the frequency of undesirable traits often associated with inbreeding.
Because line breeding is not based strictly on mating closely related individuals (with very similar gene types), it does not necessarily cause a rapid increase in homozygous gene pairs. Consequently, it will not expose undesirable recessive genes as extensively as close breeding. For this reason, line breeding is generally a safer inbreeding program for most breeders.
Intensive inbreeding (and resulting increased homozygosity) is often directly related to an increase in the expression of many undesirable traits. Therefore, the line breeder should carefully study pedigrees for each prospective mating and determine if, and how closely, the mare and stallion are related. By following certain guidelines, the breeder can limit inbreeding (and, therefore, homozygosity) within their herd. At the same time, they may increase the influence of a common ancestor upon the entire strain or family.
CROSSBREEDING is the mating of horses from different breeds. Cross breeding may also be used to produce heterosis, the sudden increase in vigour and fertility caused by a sudden increase in heterozygosity. Because horses from separate breeds usually carry very different genotypes, crossbreeding causes an extreme form of heterosis. The possibility of each parent contributing identical alleles to their offspring is remote. Heterosis from crossbreeding often appears as a sudden improvement in physical characteristics, such as size, endurance, disease resistance, etc. New breeds are sometimes established by crossing members of two or more breeds and carefully inbreeding the original crossbred offspring. Crossbreeding initiates the desired change, while inbreeding increases the ability of each generation to breed "true to type.”
Author Anonymous
NSAE NEWS
National School of Academic Equitation
22131 31st Avenue SE
Bothell, WA 98021
(425) 806-8171
Craig P. Stevens
Director
cpszzz@concentric.net
Copyright© 1997 - Craig P. Stevens, Director, National School of Academic Equitation.
Printed here by special permission.
Pigeons Interests ... before Fanciers ego's!

#2 User is online   Kyleakin Lofts 

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 10:10 AM

" When horses are inbred haphazardly, without culling of inferior stock, many undesirable traits may become predominant in their offspring. For example, the inbred horse's ability to resist disease and his overall performance capacity are often depressed. The growth rate of the inbred foal, and the average mature size within the inbred herd, frequently decreases. Non - selective inbreeding is directly related to a depressed fertility rate, an increase in abortion and stillbirth. Some basic principles of genetics show why these traits are directly related to inbreeding.
When two unrelated birds are mated, the chances of unidentical alleles combining within the resulting embryo are high. On the other hand, mating close relatives increases the pairing of identical alleles (increases homozygosity). The effect of increased homozygosity is a decrease in the number of heterozygous gene pairs and, subsequently, a decline in heterosis (i.e., loss of vigour and fertility). Although the reason for this allelic interaction is not clear, geneticists believe that its presence contributes to the overall quality of an individual. Therefore, as homozygosity increases within the inbred herd, physical quality controlled by over - dominant alleles declines. "

These two paragraphs highlight the requirement for good stocksmanship. One must have the ability to cull and the knowledge of which ones are the culls. The closer you inbreed, the more ruthless you have to be with your culling. You also require to know when to bring in your cross to prevent loss of vigour.

" A successful inbreeding program requires good foundation stock and severe culling over many years. For this reason, experienced breeders who operate large farms for the production of superior proponent breeding stock usually practice inbreeding. It can also be used to establish breeds, or true-breeding types, with respect to certain characteristics such as colour or size.
A breeding system, which uses extreme inbreeding, such as mating between siblings or between parents and offspring, is referred to as CLOSE BREEDING. The detrimental effects of inbreeding (such as decrease in vigour, fertility, athletic ability and size) are usually exaggerated in a close breeding system. This is especially true when average breeding stock is used and little culling has been implemented. Close breeding can produce extremely good, or extremely poor, results. Success and failure depend on factors such as planning, foundation stock, emphasis on culling, and completeness of pedigree and performance records, etc. Haphazard close breeding could be very detrimental to the overall quality of the resulting offspring. To avoid disaster, a careful study of the merits and weaknesses of the breeding stock should precede a close breeding program. Only the most outstanding mares and stallions can be used with any degree of safety in a long-term close breeding program. "

Your subsequent proof.

" Perhaps the greatest advantage of inbreeding is that it increases the pre - potency of individuals within a herd / flock and consequently helps to create distinct true-breeding strains or families. This prepotency (the ability of a stallion or broodmare, for example, to stamp desirable characteristics upon their offspring with a high degree of predictability) is the result of the parent being homozygous for important desirable traits. When such a parent carries two identical alleles on corresponding points of a chromosome pair, he transmits that allele to the same chromosome point within his offspring. If two such parents are mated, the offspring will always possess the same desirable trait. Therefore, as inbreeding increases homozygosity, it also enhances prepotency. (This is advantageous only if the parents are homozygous for desirable traits.) "

The one main advantage to inbreeding whatever form is used, however, with racing pigeons, the basket proves the ability and the success of the programme.

Nowadays the ability of the basket to assist the stocksman is greatly reduced by the increase of chance in the equation. Why the increase of chance? Simple, the increase n the BOP population decreases the chance of a true reflection from the basket alone.
:)

This post has been edited by Kyleakin Lofts: 12 October 2017 - 10:18 AM

Andy

#3 User is online   paddymac 

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 13:14 PM

Interesting reading :emoticon-0138-thinking:
Pat Mc Laughlin Brunswick Lofts

#4 User is offline   Roland 

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 13:25 PM

Good read Kyleakin Lofts 

Now possibly the greatest sire was 'Northern Dancer' Certainly even today rates as one of the best ever!
Never won a race. Was a real flop in fact wasn't it.

Like wise with pigeons ... one needs to know what it will throw. Also what it's mate will throw.

Now incest breeding is to keep the good traits one desires in his birds... but again this furthers the bad traits also.

Now lets say that a bird has 10 good traits that we desire in our birds.

5 good strong traits. Ones you and we like... others the bad ones we wish to demote etc.
So we find a hen that also has 10 traits, 5 good and strong and 5 not really what we want, or conceive we don't.

If one studies and keeps records etc. whether in own loft or a mates - That's what top fanciers do... swap etc.

Now we want in the birds to breed their good traits that should auger well and hopefully get 10 great desirable traits!
the sad part is that all so often in most birds the Bad traits could be the stronger!
Maybe we could breed 10 so - called bad traits in the youngsters.
Now a simple truth is that once a cup is brim-full then it can't hold any more.
the Bussearts / Jansenn / Logen Masserella and such were great 'Stockmen' because they had an affinity to see / know which and what could / would breed such and such.
Jim said the most import thing in a pigeon is by far it's Constitution. Would never contemplate, buying or owning a good bird even that lacked this. Buy in other birds with good constitutions will also have the added vigour.
An example. I bought in some young birds - great investment actually, though for a season nigh I was mad and thought I had been pressured and conned ... that's another story though.
One, a pencil cock won as a y/b. Then I moved loft. It, like the others stayed. I didn't race that season as I was in the throes of moving again.
I moved here in the October.
This cock bird was an aristocrat in the loft. I broke it again like most of the others, and lightly raced it. that season it won Thurso in one club. A fortnight later it won Bergerac.
I, of course gave it many different hens.... It never ever bred piddley pip. Some great looking off springs ....
Why?

Too many fanciers have loft full of 'Breeders' breeding rubbish. Because it was from so and so, or because they paid a lot of money for it!
Next season will be better because ... and then they do exactly the same and wonder why!
Pigeons Interests ... before Fanciers ego's!

#5 User is online   paddymac 

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 15:02 PM

View PostRoland, on 12 October 2017 - 14:25 PM, said:

Good read Kyleakin Lofts 

Now possibly the greatest sire was 'Northern Dancer' Certainly even today rates as one of the best ever!
Never won a race. Was a real flop in fact wasn't it.

Like wise with pigeons ... one needs to know what it will throw. Also what it's mate will throw.

Now incest breeding is to keep the good traits one desires in his birds... but again this furthers the bad traits also.

Now lets say that a bird has 10 good traits that we desire in our birds.

5 good strong traits. Ones you and we like... others the bad ones we wish to demote etc.
So we find a hen that also has 10 traits, 5 good and strong and 5 not really what we want, or conceive we don't.

If one studies and keeps records etc. whether in own loft or a mates - That's what top fanciers do... swap etc.

Now we want in the birds to breed their good traits that should auger well and hopefully get 10 great desirable traits!
the sad part is that all so often in most birds the Bad traits could be the stronger!
Maybe we could breed 10 so - called bad traits in the youngsters.
Now a simple truth is that once a cup is brim-full then it can't hold any more.
the Bussearts / Jansenn / Logen Masserella and such were great 'Stockmen' because they had an affinity to see / know which and what could / would breed such and such.
Jim said the most import thing in a pigeon is by far it's Constitution. Would never contemplate, buying or owning a good bird even that lacked this. Buy in other birds with good constitutions will also have the added vigour.
An example. I bought in some young birds - great investment actually, though for a season nigh I was mad and thought I had been pressured and conned ... that's another story though.
One, a pencil cock won as a y/b. Then I moved loft. It, like the others stayed. I didn't race that season as I was in the throes of moving again.
I moved here in the October.
This cock bird was an aristocrat in the loft. I broke it again like most of the others, and lightly raced it. that season it won Thurso in one club. A fortnight later it won Bergerac.
I, of course gave it many different hens.... It never ever bred piddley pip. Some great looking off springs ....
Why?

Too many fanciers have loft full of 'Breeders' breeding rubbish. Because it was from so and so, or because they paid a lot of money for it!

Next season will be better because ... and then they do exactly the same and wonder why!

One of the reasons for Yb losses each year Roland, so called stock birds breeding rubbish. Spending big money doesn't guarantee that its going to breed winners. :(
Pat Mc Laughlin Brunswick Lofts

#6 User is online   Kyleakin Lofts 

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 15:11 PM

Very often one finds that there are fallow generations. A great racer does not produce his like, but his offspring do. This is where the stocksmanship comes into play. One must know his pigeons and his family and then keep faith in them.

The beginner has to rely on this good stockman to supply him with good stock and to mentor him as he progresses to continue his mentors family. Sadly nowadays there are not enough beginners willing to learn / listen and there is a dearth of good stockmen who are willing to mentor beginners to the nth degree. It also has to be borne in mind that not all racers are able to breed. It has been said on here by fanciers of merit, that breeding is gold and racing is silver. :)
Andy

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 16:03 PM

Whats the 10 good traits yer lookin for like ,if they handle ok to suit me ,and they look promising thats what criteria i go by ,I dont think a winner can be bred ,i think they are born or the hit rate would be more than one in a hundred all the said supper stock men would be pumping them out eh ??

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 16:40 PM

Each fancier will have their own likes and theories when looking at birds for future stock, no two will have the same opinion.
Pat Mc Laughlin Brunswick Lofts

#9 User is online   Kyleakin Lofts 

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 18:01 PM

View Postphilg50, on 12 October 2017 - 17:03 PM, said:

Whats the 10 good traits yer lookin for like ,if they handle ok to suit me ,and they look promising thats what criteria i go by ,I dont think a winner can be bred ,i think they are born or the hit rate would be more than one in a hundred all the said supper stock men would be pumping them out eh ??


At one time you could look to the top flier in your area and he would be pumping them out at around 1% top quality and 4% decent doos, the other fliers would be around 1% decent doos. They have to be bred to be born and the good stockman had a higher hit rate than the ordinary fancier.
There are two or three in your area, same around Edinburgh, Solway, Borders, areas. The West has a few as well, but the majority of fanciers make up the numbers and are striving to improve, some more successful than others.
Why are the same people at the top on a regular basis? If they weren't breeding the goods, they wouldn't stay at the top. :)
Andy

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 18:19 PM

View PostKyleakin Lofts, on 12 October 2017 - 18:01 PM, said:

At one time you could look to the top flier in your area and he would be pumping them out at around 1% top quality and 4% decent doos, the other fliers would be around 1% decent doos. They have to be bred to be born and the good stockman had a higher hit rate than the ordinary fancier.
There are two or three in your area, same around Edinburgh, Solway, Borders, areas. The West has a few as well, but the majority of fanciers make up the numbers and are striving to improve, some more successful than others.
Why are the same people at the top on a regular basis? If they weren't breeding the goods, they wouldn't stay at the top. :)

IMO the answer to that is ,dedication,good management,a system that works for them ,sticking to a strict regime ,and lots of road work and training ,the also rans like myself dont put in enough work on the road .My hat comes of to these guys .And of course them racing 30 doos against my 10 lol.

#11 User is online   paddymac 

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Posted 12 October 2017 - 18:31 PM

View Postphilg50, on 12 October 2017 - 19:19 PM, said:

IMO the answer to that is ,dedication,good management,a system that works for them ,sticking to a strict regime ,and lots of road work and training ,the also rans like myself dont put in enough work on the road .My hat comes of to these guys .And of course them racing 30 doos against my 10 lol.

A regime that most of top and successful fanciers will follow. Unfortunately the working man has different obligations first and can not put into his birds the same sort of commitment. each fancier therefore has to work with a system that works for them and if the right birds are there they will return rewards.
Pat Mc Laughlin Brunswick Lofts

#12 User is offline   THE FIFER 

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Posted 14 October 2017 - 17:05 PM

very good reading m8 and interesting
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