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Guest bluemorning
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what are peoples thoughts on 1/2 brother 1/2 sister pairing then a daughter of this pairing back to her grand sire

for breeding purposes yes its bang to keep certain lines but you would need to outcross them for racing :animatedpigeons:

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Guest bluemorning

thanks for the answers,but what have you found to be the best pairings to produce good pigeons and fix traits you require rather than having a dozen different breeds and chance to luck.

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thanks for the answers,but what have you found to be the best pairings to produce good pigeons and fix traits you require rather than having a dozen different breeds and chance to luck.

have found the latter , having a dozen diffrent breeds and chancing to luck the best option. most the pedigree "bred from this and that" only bred "this and that" and have now gone . :emoticon-0127-lipssealed:

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thanks for the answers,but what have you found to be the best pairings to produce good pigeons and fix traits you require rather than having a dozen different breeds and chance to luck.

 

 

fixed traits that i look for are not in the bird at all if it breeds good birds then it has the right traits and if its a good racer i will try this one in the stock loft seems like a smart answer but its how i judge birds

 

its nice to have a good handling pigeon that has certain features ok but i find they always seem to handle that bit nicer with a few good results behind them lol

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Guest bluemorning

fixed traits that i look for are not in the bird at all if it breeds good birds then it has the right traits and if its a good racer i will try this one in the stock loft seems like a smart answer but its how i judge birds

 

its nice to have a good handling pigeon that has certain features ok but i find they always seem to handle that bit nicer with a few good results behind them lol

 

 

its with this in mind that proven birds to be used at stock but also not to out cross to early to try and intensify tho good bits i was wanting members to say what close inbreeding or line breeding has given them the best results. thanks for the imput keep it coming

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Guest geordiejen

im not in favour of closely related birds in the first pairing never mind pairing them close again.in my view closely related birds shed a higher risk of low imminity and suseptable to other things that could go wrong.

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  • 4 weeks later...

I'm not a fan of inbreeding for racing however for stock yes. Last season I paired my current best racing hen to her father. However there is winners in all generation of this offsprings pedigree now, going back 4 generations. I then paired one of my best racing cocks to his mother again however there's winners in all 5 generations. The intention is then to cross the offspring of the said pairing. The hen is a Tasker x Lefebre Dhanen and the Cock is Gevaert Van Schoorise.

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Guest bluemorning

thanks lads,not racing yet as i have had health probs,was going to race young birds this year but had an op late feb which put paid to that.but now have a few young birds i hope to train up with the help of a mate.but i have been pairing a good cock to 3 hens last couple of years and kept the best well in my opinion anyway.so next year my stock will comprise of 1/2 brother 1/2 sister pairings cousins etc hopefully testing the young and then buying a few good inbred birds in the closed season if the plan works out for me if not back to the drawing board.

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I AM SENTING 1 3 YEAR OLD & 2 2 YEAR OLD & A 4 YEAR HEN BRO/SIS MATE & 3 LAST YEAR Y/BIRDS & 4 LATEBREED LAST YEAR FATHER/DRT & MOM/SON TO SNFC FIRST RACE & GOLD CUP AND 4 2 YEAR OLD & 5 LAST YEAR Y/BIRDS & 6 LATEBREED LAST YEAR FATHER/DRT. & MOM/SON MATING & 5 BRO/SIS MATING TO SNRPC FIRST & THEN TO THE GOLD CUP RACE IT MY FIRST YEAR AT SNFC AND SNRPC. I WILL LET YOURS KNOW HOW I DO.

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Guest bluemorning

I AM SENTING 1 3 YEAR OLD & 2 2 YEAR OLD & A 4 YEAR HEN BRO/SIS MATE & 3 LAST YEAR Y/BIRDS & 4 LATEBREED LAST YEAR FATHER/DRT & MOM/SON TO SNFC FIRST RACE & GOLD CUP AND 4 2 YEAR OLD & 5 LAST YEAR Y/BIRDS & 6 LATEBREED LAST YEAR FATHER/DRT. & MOM/SON MATING & 5 BRO/SIS MATING TO SNRPC FIRST & THEN TO THE GOLD CUP RACE IT MY FIRST YEAR AT SNFC AND SNRPC. I WILL LET YOURS KNOW HOW I DO.

 

would love to know your results good luck with them

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Guest Owen

The only reason that you could have for breeding that close is if both the birds concerned are top performers. Inbreeding will help to consolidate the genes that both parents have in common. That means both desirable traints and undesirabe traints. You would be far better to select a top performace cock and mate him with ten of the best hens you have using the bull system to do it. The youngsters will all be about the same age and you will know which hens suite the cock. If you then find that the cock does not produce winning pigeons you need to dump him and get yourself one that will do the job. I would never dream of inbreeding animals that have to perform because almost the first thing you will loose is vigour. The very thing you need in abundance in racing pigeons.

I am a coward because I take the easy way out. I mate Fed winning cocks to the daughters of Fed winners and leave it at that. Even then I find that I breed lazy good for nothing pigeons but I honestly have to say that as each year goes by I have less of those.

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Guest geordiejen

not a fan of pairing familys too close.im of the opinion its all to chance of the breeding of a good bird.im pretty sure all fanciers have tried and tested every avenue to breed a good bird and basically there is no full proof method.most people every year set out to bring in new blood to improve their breeding stock and it may very well be the stock you already have is a winning combination.im all for switching pairings rather than bringing in new stock.i dont have any experience in racing pigeons only showing them but its actually on how you keep the bird,feeding methods and keep stress to the very minimum.look after the birds and they will look after you.

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  • 3 months later...
Guest maricelbill

technically it's no different than sire to dgtr pairing. figure out the math yourself.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

not a fan of pairing familys too close.im of the opinion its all to chance of the breeding of a good bird.im pretty sure all fanciers have tried and tested every avenue to breed a good bird and basically there is no full proof method.most people every year set out to bring in new blood to improve their breeding stock and it may very well be the stock you already have is a winning combination.im all for switching pairings rather than bringing in new stock.i dont have any experience in racing pigeons only showing them but its actually on how you keep the bird,feeding methods and keep stress to the very minimum.look after the birds and they will look after you.

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Why would you do that? I thought that the idea was to breed winning pigeons. The only possible way that a pairing like that could be justified is because both of those birds have had outstanding results racing. Have they?

If you want to experiment then I would use the cock as a Bull and have the hen as one of his hens. Then in the second round you can revert to a normal pairing.

In spite of what rubbish you may read about breeding the vast majority of winners are produced by crossbreeding. The golden rule is to pair like with like. That is sprint winners to sprint winners or the daughters of sprint winners. Then use exactly the same rule to breed from the other distance birds.

If on the other hand if it is show pigeons you want to breed or possibly to fix a certain colour then your idea of pairing close relatives would be the best way to do this. However, perhaps you had better look at what the dog breeders have done with their inbreeding. Then look at the way that the professionals do it in regard to race horses. They would not dream of pairing relatives together and always try to pair like to like.

According to Schaerlaeckens the best Continentals crossbreed to produce their racers and re-pair to breed so called purebreds for the Market. He thinks that people who buy pieces of paper rather than performance pigeons are nut cases. To be honest I think the same.

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In theory there is nothing wrong with inbreeding. It fixes traits, but as has been said, both good and bad. To this end you have to be severe in culling. You also have to be able to recognise when a cross is required.

Line breeding is just inbreeding, but a bit further out, so the same applies although you may have a little more leeway.

Outcrossing is to leave it all to chance.

When bringing your cross in, you have to ensure that the cross is of suitable quality. To this end running two families would allow you to be able to do this. Not many can afford to run two families.

Why would you do this? The only reason is to fix certain traits you are after.

What traits do we require in our racing pigeons? We require them to race well in the given field.

If you mate a champion hen to a champion cock, both champions in the same field, are you inbreeding to their winning traits, even though you may be crossing families?

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Outcrossing leaves it to chance? I was with you until you got to this bit. The whole point of breeding is to produce a selected factor in the progeny so we need to take as much of the chance out of our breeding as we can. You did not mention that inbred specimens can lose vitality to some extent. I saw experiments done with inbreeding artic foxes. They went from totally wild and full of fear to very tame and fawning over their keepers in just two generations. The ones kept in identical conditions but were not inbred stayed wild. The explanation given was that the inbred foxes had lost vitality and did not have the same nervious reaction as the control groups. The fearful foxes were too scared to breed while in captivity and the ones that did breed were the least scared ones. The result was that the thrid generation of foxes were bred for tameness and they had a hieghtened loss of vitality which also helped them to become even tamer.

I have the impression sometimes that some people think that the act of inbreeding produces superior progeny. As you have rightly pointed out that is not the case and negitive factors can be fixed just as readily as positive ones. No matter what pairings a breeder uses the breeder must measure the point at which his selection starts and continually measure the result of each generation produced. With any performance creature like pigeons that has to be progeny testing by racing them. The idea of using individuals that have never raced is simply crazy and using individuals that have not performed well is nearly as bad.

The big advantage of outcrossing is that you do not reduce the essential vitality that our birds need to perform well. And you can target your selection just as well by only selecting the ones that distinguish themselves racing. If you do the job properly and select well you should have a very solid team of birds that are capable of winning at the top level. I decided to select for the ability to win sprint races 3 years ago. I now have a very formidable team of sprinters but I will need at least another 2 years of selective breeding to create what I really want. This year I will start the process of breeding birds to win at middle distance. This will be difficult because of the external factors that distort the results but it can still be done with careful selection and continual testing.

By the way, people who cintinually try to buy the birds to bring them success are not giving themsevles much of a chance to develop a solid team with real depth of winning blood.

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Many moons ago i went to purchase some busscharets from a fellow who lived in kent who was packing up, there were many fanciers in this chaps garden buying pigeons at the time. i can remember to this day a pencil pied cock with a damaged wing sitting in the corner of the loft looking sad for its self , the owner offered this pigeon free to a group of lads, whats it bred from one asked The owner informed them it was an inbred son of janet she was a 3 times fed winner and the blood of the broken keel cock . The guy said i dont keep damaged pigeons and aspecially not inbred ones . I told the fellow to put it in my basket along with its mother, happy days that inbred cock bred me a host of winners out to lerwick 600ml, The moral of this story is don't turn your nose up at inbred pigeons especially a free one

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Owen, with regards to inbreeding and line breeding, I stated that you must be able to recognise when a cross is required. This was to prevent loss of vigour. It is accepted in many circles that with inbreeding of whatever nature you trap a gene pool and as such have more control over any variations and it is in this respect that outcrossing leaves it more to chance. I also mentioned that we require our pigeons to race well in our given field and this is the trait that we are trying to fix. My last sentence "If you mate a champion hen to a champion cock, both champions in the same field, are you inbreeding to their winning traits, even though you may be crossing families?" shows that although those particular birds may not be blood related, they are genetically related through their ability or trait of winning in their chosen field. The difference is that within a family or strain we have a known and sometimes the stockman can tell by the colour of the birds, etc. With the cross, although the birds are both winners they may not "click". You would certainly increase vigour, but you would also increase the variations within the gene pool.

The family line takes more time, I would think, and requires strict culling and a good stockman whilst the other method requires the luck of the coupling. Both should be tested by results because this is why we breed them in the first place.

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the one thing you need is a lot of luck ;) as there is so many things that can go wrong or right i got a good racer home a few year back and he was busted in 2 half's by a falcon i really dont know how he got home tbh even 6 hrs after i tought he was going to die a week after i put him in the stock loft he went he is sire grand sire and great grandsire of winners not only for us but other people too his children etc win from 60 mile and from the channel i reckon another 4 or 5 mile he would not of got home that i consider luck no great thinking or i knew he was going to be a excellent breeder have to say though he was a machine while racing

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inbreeding or winner to winner or sometimes a pair that have not won anything can breed winners. if it was as easy as champion x champion = champion yb,s.the fanciers like myself and most on hear would not have a winner.it would be the fanciers that spend £1000,s buying the best that would do all the winning. lucky for us that is not the case .yes most of us try to improve with our birds and buy the best we can afford .so with winners coming from just about any type ie champion or club winner or bird with no wins. it is hard to narrow down whats best.any bird of mine that produces a bird to win for me will be kept for breeding as i think it is harder to get good breeders than it is to get a winner.

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