Pair to Race or pair to breed?

[Guest]

Musing over next year's pairings.  

 

I've a yearling cock paired with 'a safe mate' - his current hen was stopped for stock as a two year old, this is her second year at stock, and 2005 is the first time they were together. I bred one round from them -both hens, both dropped, one in the first trainer, the other in the first race.

 

I've nothing from this cock, and I'd like a safe mate for him again in 2006 when he will (hopefully) go to two Nationals including one of the 500 mile races. But I'd also like something off him.

 

I've another (better?) stock hen available as a safe mate for him in 2006.

 

Do I leave the pair alone - he raced pretty consistently to his 2005 hen - and forget about something off him?  Or do I put him up with the other hen in 2006, get something off him, but risk poorer race performances from him?

 

ALL VIEWS WELCOME.  

 

 

 

 

[PIGEON_MAN]

I WOULD SAY THAT IF YOU ARE SET ON BREEDING SOMETHING OFF HIM IT IS NO GOOD LEAVING HIM WITH THE SAME HEN AS IN 2005 BECAUSE THE YOUNGSTERS OFF THEM WERE NO GOOD SO YOU WILL HAVE TO TRY HIM WITH THE OTHER HEN.I WAS WONDERING WHY YOU ARE SO SET IN YOUR MIND ABOUT BREEDING OFF HIM WOULD IT BE AS WHERE I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE MAKE THE MISTAKE OF DOING IS BECAUSE HE IS BRED OFF A CERTAIN PIGEON OR AS HE A PEDIGREE AS LONG AS YOUR ARM.I PERSONALLY ONLY GO BY THE EYE FOR BREEDING IT DOESN,T MATTER TO ME WHAT A BIRD MAY HAVE DONE OR WHAT THEY ARE BRED OFF IF THEY HAVN,T GOT WHAT I THINK IS A GOOD BREEDING EYE I DONT BREED OFF THEM.

[Guest]

No pedigree, Pigeon_man, just a very consistent pigeon.  

 

If he was the only 'winning line' in the loft, without offspring (none) or others like him (none) wouldn't be a winning line for long, would it?  

 

 

[speedbird]

i have the same problem there a cock i race which races well to a good loving hen but i want to try another hen for breeding done this now for 2years

 

i would pair him up  in dec/jan to the good hen once laid move eggs to a foster pair to rear the young,you could do this again if you want 4from em then split him up & pair him to the hens he races well to.

 

[PIGEON_MAN]

SO BECAUSE HE IS A CONSISTANT PIGEON YOU THINK HE WILL BE A GOOD BREEDER AS WELL, IT WOULD BE EASY IF IT WORKED THAT WAY.I THINK I WOULD BE MORE LIKELY TO BREED MORE OFF HIS PARENTS IF THAT IS POSSIBLE OR TO TRY AND GET SOME MORE YOUNGSTERS OFF THAT PAIR IF YOU DONT HAVE THEM BECAUSE THEY HAVE PROVED THAT THEY BREED CONSISTANT PIGEONS.I HAVE KNOWN FANCIERS WITH PIGEONS THAT HAVE WON LOADS OF RACES BUT THEY CAN NOT BREED BIRDS OFF THEM THAT ARE ANY GOOD.  

[Guest]

No, Pigeon_man, I don't assume that because he is a consistent pigeon he will throw the same. Just as I don't assume that because the two offspring went down, the pair will continue to throw duffers.  

 

I'm simply spreading the risk, or laying my bets, by considering my options.  

 

And, yes, the science of genetics is anything but simple, just try getting hold of a book written by an author who can take genetics in pigeons beyond 'simple' colour inheritance.  The purely random nature of how the parents' genes divide, re-pair and are distributed for every new offspring means it's like a lottery. Maybe 'next time' the right numbers will rack up for this pair.  ;D

 

This cock has certain qualities consistent with the genotype that I would like to capture and breed to; as has his hen (e.g. constitution, endurance, recovery). I thought I had 'cracked it' in one of the youngsters because when she was shifted with around 15 others, she put them so much in the shade that I wondered if I should be 'binning' them and start breeding all over again.

 

Although she was consistent in training, this bird went down in the first race. Does that necessarily mean she was a 'duffer' and the pair split?

 

 

[Guest shadow]

I let my racing team pick their own hens , but pair my stock birds how I think they will produce the kind of bird I am looking for, unless I have pairs that are producing the goods they stay together. This way I find the racing team are more contented, and it seems cut down on the number of hens that try to pair up when the racing has started and they are in their own compartment

fly hard fly fair

[Guest]

Agree its a good idea up to a point, Shadow, and certainly OK for widowhood.  

 

But for the Natural system and a handful of pigeons that you want to send to a specific race (s) I'd like to have what I term 'a safe mate' for the cock or hen race birds, always there at home, waiting for them on race day. Little point in risking the mate on the road only to drop him or her just before the other's big race. Did that in 2005 - my first time trying 500 miles - and was left with 3 of my 4 hens without cocks. Don't intend falling for that next year 'my first time trying 500 miles' (or any of my other mistakes!!).

 

 

 

[Guest]

Keep him with the safe hen and if he is any good he will be there the following year to breed off. I have a cock that won as a two year old from 400miles and was always consistent, the year after I paired him to a different hen and he did nowt. So I put him back with his old hen and he started coming again and won from 450miles and 550 miles. Now hes in stock and ive put him with different hens and he has bred winners and his daughter has bred winners. I think its the hen that makes certain widowhood cocks win.

[speedbird]

do what i said a few post ago get best of both there

[jimmy white]

i would pair him with my best hen, if i thought a lot of the cock, take the eggs away at 8 days, foster them, then race him 4 races spare, as he is going for the 500 miler,  4 races would be plenty.i would then count back from the 500 mile race in question,pair him back to his old hen [never having let him see it that year]then send him sitting 10 days on eggs.making sure that he had at least one 8 hour race beforehand four weeks previous to the big one, one weeks rest, then paired, trained every day 50 miles then a  weeks rest gathering nest materials, you would then find he would have just cast his first flight and should be in exellant shape

[Guest]

I've 'cut and paste' your reply in a new '500 mile preparation' word document for myself for 2006, Jimmy.    Thanks for your time and effort.

My one problem in doing ALL you advise is my limited facilities don't allow seperation of paired pigeons and racing them spare, unless its a hen or a cock with its own box in the same end as my other paired cocks & hens. The seperated hen would also need to go to the young bird end (which is across my central corridor and facing my old bird ends) and there were two pairs of paired hens in there in 2005 which barely tolerated each other.

All the birds are therefore in full view of each other, and usually (like now) the place is on 'open plan' with all the birds having the full run of the place (6 'sections').

I've taken note of the other posts (and thanks for them) and I'm coming down on the 'safe' side of leaving this pair together. My main reason is that I do not want the cock unsettled in any way, nor his hen, especially if she keeps going back to the box and upsetting him and the 'other woman', the breeding hen.