Culls...

[Rick Hall]

I'm not a racer, just an American lurker on this racing board who enjoys raising homers just to watch, as well as for gun dog training.  And I'll admit that I shoot my culls for the dogs' training benefit - and our family table.  At least in my part of the US, mine are quite acceptable practices, and a number of racers have given or sold me birds for those purposes.  

 

But I've seen UK gun dog owners lament the difficulty of obtaining homing pigeon stock and wonder whether there's some general prohibition among UK pigeon fanciers against supplying dog trainers with birds?

 

And if so, what on earth do you do with all your culls?

[brixsmaid]

I'm one of those lamenting UK gundog owners/trainers and have been trying for 6 months to source a couple of birds which were going to be culled.  I've only ever used my birds in a non destructive manner, i.e. I don't actually harm them, the dogs just learn to push them out from grass/bushes, without physical contact (otherwise the dog has failed) then they fly back to my mini loft.  Its basically to teach the dog to find and flush a bird and stop dead when they do.

 

So if I don't hurt them why do I need them - I've been out of training dogs for a good few years, my old stock was sold on, but now I have three new dogs, so I need some new, chaep, failed, cull stock.

[Rick Hall]

I'm getting the impression I've broached a subject no one wishes to discuss.  

 

Is everyone here in the habit of pensioning poor racers for the rest of their rather long natural lives or is something else done with them.

[Guest]

Rick,

 

You don't happen to be a member of PETA do you ???

 

 

for the record, we at Red Rose Lofts do not cull birds unless they have been badly injured by hawks or are very sick.

 

Our poor racers are used for foster parents for our breeding team and once a bird has stopped producing he/she has a perch for the rest of their natural lives.

 

 

[rlez]

hi

 

i dont think i could use my retired racers for practice for gun dogs,i would say after a while my birds would soon sense that they are going to be the dogs next meal i could not mix the two sports to-gether.thats no different than chasing the poor hare round a field and ripping it to bits.i give my birds that i dont fancy one more chance at the distance

les

[Guest shadow]

Why give them one more chance, if they do not show any promise inland  they are certainly not going to do anything different having to face the channel. all it does is in crease the feral population

fly hard fly fair

[Rick Hall]

Hyacinth, it had only just occured to me that this thread might be drawing such poor response because of fear of UK "animal rights" fanatics, and having earned my livelihood first writing about hunting and fishing and now guiding them, I think it safe to assume I've no PETA connection.

 

That said, I do try to treat all creatures humanely - within the natural cycle where all life is sustained by death.  And I'd not have a dog that handled birds roughly.  (As must surely be most wild and feral birds' "natural" end.)  We hunters wish to eat our kills ourselves and certainly don't wish them mangled.  And so it is that gun dogs have for hundreds of years been bred and trained to be "soft mouthed".

 

And what big lofts those who don't cull must have!  I see people post here of starting 20-50 youngbirds each season, and even as poor a mathematician as I can see where that would lead in a very few year's time.  No way a poor boy like me could afford such largess, even if he were inclined to.  So we shoot our extras for the dogs to work and then eat them - and find them excellent tablefare.  

 

 

 

[Guest Doostalker]

Rick and Brixsmaid,

 

I have kept pigeons for many years, been fishing since I was 4, and have been shooting since I was old enough to have a shotgun licence. I have trained and run my own lurcher at hares and rabbits, and spent many hours on the hill deer stalking. I have also been in several pheasant shooting syndicates, and have trained and worked my own gundog. Pigeons take up most of my time now, but I remain close friends with many in the shooting and field sports fraternity.

 

I have heard of dog trainers using live pigeons to steady a gundog in the UK. Since your postings I have spoken with some of my shooting friends, some of whom have large kennels of gundogs, but they do not use this practice although acknowledging that some do.

 

I am sure you can understand why I, like others on this forum, am sceptical of the validity of your posting. It may be that you are indeed genuine Brixsmaid, however I would have thought that you would have contacts from your previous involvement who use the same practice as you do, from whom you could get bait pigeons.

 

Like the majority of pigeon fanciers, I only cull birds when they are very ill or badly injured. The pigeon Fancy has moved on in recent years, and you may find it impossible to source birds for your purpose from pigeon fanciers. Furthermore, given that this forum is probably regularly read by Animal Rights Activists, I wonder at the wisdom of drawing attention to what you need the birds for.

[Guest]

Rick

 

On many occasions the subject of Culls has been raised on The American Pigeon Mailing list by "lurkers" asking inoccious questions only to find that responses have been copied and used against us on Animal Rights pages.

 

Too dammed right we have to watch our backs against these type of people.

[Guest]

Well, since nobody else seems able to say it, I will.

 

I would rather kill MYSELF before giving any live animal, far less a pigeon, to anyone with a dog so that the the bird (or animal) can lie trussed up in the grass listening while something huge, noisy and unseen approaches it.

 

And I don't think I'd stand idly by and watch it happen either.

 

[Rick Hall]

Would have thought the well-meaning but empty-headed PETA types had more than they could handle trying to keep up with we nasty hunters, much less the rest of the planet's meat eating population, to fool with pigeon fanciers.  Perhaps your skittishness marks you as weak and, therefore, vulnerable prey.  Dunno.

 

Do know I've no desire to further anyone's discomfort unnecessarily and will drop the subject, unless futher interest is expressed, without raising it here again.  Enjoy and appreciate the forum and wish to be a good guest.

[Rick Hall]

Well, since nobody else seems able to say it, I will.

 

I would rather kill MYSELF before giving any live animal, far less a pigeon, to anyone with a dog so that the the bird (or animal) can lie trussed up in the grass listening while something huge, noisy and unseen approaches it.

 

And I don't think I'd stand idly by and watch it happen either.

 

See we've cross posted, Bruno.  Can't say that I understand how it might be better to be killed by a friend than approached by a potential foe, but there's much of others' reasoning process in this world that befuddles me.

 

[Guest]

theres only one thing with a bird if it dosn't race or breed good is cull it in MY opinion theres no point in keeping rubbish because if you keep rubbish your not going to be a very successfull flyer.

 

paul carter

[brixsmaid]

Well I guess I'm not going to establish any contacts for a couple of cull birds through here, its also a pity that the more vociferous of the respondents didn't actually read my message, where I used words like: "non destructive manner: I don't actually harm them, the dogs just learn to push them out from grass/bushes, without physical contact (otherwise the dog has failed) then they fly back to my mini loft.  It's basically to teach the dog to find and flush a bird and stop dead when they do. So if I don't hurt them why do I need them………"

 

Just to clarify the point before I fade away into the ether: if during my training a dog even touches a bird or rabbit (yes they are also used) rather than coming to an immediate "sit" then I have failed and its back to square one and start again with retraining the dog.

 

For Bruno: the bird is not trussed in any way, simply "dizzied" ( I can explain - again a non harming/non distressing process) before being placed on the ground.

 

For Doostalker; I am genuine, and I can't think of any professional gundog trainers I have come across when I was last training who didn't have a few pigeons in regular use and surprisingly their birds lived to a ripe old age!

 

Anyway, a pity no one could help with giving a couple of odd birds a good life!

 

Regards

 

[jimmy white]

exellent post from doo stalker

[Guest]

Rick

 

Perhaps you are not aware that we have been having problems shipping birds in The USA, several airlines have been targeted by Peta and now refuse to carry birds ,

 

There are also the employees of the US Postal system who are refusing to book shipments of birds because of their connections with PETA, I can name two occasions lately when fanciers have been taken to boot by Post Office employees for taking part in a cruel sport ie pigeon racing and have their shipments refused. one in Beaver City Utah and on in Seattle.

 

Are U a Member of the american Racing Pigeon Union ?????

 

As for me being weak and vulnerable - whatever!!!!!!!!

[Rick Hall]

Anyway, a pity no one could help with giving a couple of odd birds a good life!

 

And pity I can't send you some from here.

 

Or can anyone speak to the logistics and expense of such a trans-Atlantic shipment?  Is it more feasable than I'm imagining?

[Guest]

about $100 per bird depending on how many are shipped out

[Guest]

plus handling fees , quarantine and agents fees in the UK

[Rick Hall]

Are U a Member of the american Racing Pigeon Union ?????

 

Of course not, as one might readily guess from my opening statement, "I'm not a racer, just an American lurker on this racing board who enjoys raising homers just to watch, as well as for gun dog training."

 

Nor am I feeling or acting like a deer in the headlights.  (Or at all surprised by the phenominon of some US postal employees...well, going postal.  It's a big outfit with an apparent penchant for hiring the un-hinged.)

[Rick Hall]

Well, that would be prohibitive to me, but if brixmaid is willing to foot the bill and do the paperwork, I'll provide the birds gratis.  

[brixsmaid]

Rick

 

You're forgetting that this side of the pond is still very old fashioned if not Victorian, well certainly my salary is and it certainly doesn't run to air freighting them over - nice offer though - more than I've had from this side!

 

Then again for what it would cost I could probably front up to one of the lofts in this country and buy a pair and wouldn't even have to tell them why I wanted them - but I would be condemming them to a life of free flying at their own pace, without the pressure of being stuck in a crate, transhipped here and there and then battling home through all weathers and dodging the odd hawk/Falcon on the way!!

[Rick Hall]

I'm not particularly keen on fussing over moral high ground with zealots of any inclination, but my own poor, abused dog training birds are loafing in the trees around the house as I type.  'Course the loft trap is open, so they've always that option, as well.  But they tend to vote with their wings to enjoy the freedoms their lot affords.  Seem to find great pleasure in the sun.  This evening they'll roost in the safety and comfort of the loft, of course, and in the morning some will earn their keep with a trip to the field and flight home.  Get to pick their own mates and set they're own parental schedules, too.  And even those that face the gun and feed my family will have died a swifter, more humane death than nature is apt to afford.  Really doesn't seem such a bad life, and I'm certainly not ashamed to provide it.

 

Sorry I haven't the financial resources to do what your countrymen apparently find unthinkable and get you started.  I am ashamed of that.

[PIGEON_MAN]

BRIXSMAID,CHECK YOUR EM.YOU SHOULD HAVE ONE FROM ME DATED 03.10.05.SENT AT 09.44.

[Guest Doostalker]

Brixsmaid when you say

 

"but I would be condemming them to a life of free flying at their own pace, without the pressure of being stuck in a crate, transhipped here and there and then battling home through all weathers and dodging the odd hawk/Falcon on the way!!"

 

you lost any residual support there may have been for your case among people such as myself who have no axe to grind with field sports and in fact enjoy participating in them. In my earlier posting, I did not knock your activity. I did ask if it was wise to post about it on an open forum. Now you seem to think it is ok to knock pigeon racing. If you want pigeons so badly, I would suggest that it does you no credit whatsoever to bad mouth the huge majority of pigeon fanciers.

 

I know that some others have been vociferous in their disapproval of what you want the birds for. It is their democratic right to hold this view if they want. But I reckon that your case would have been better served by putting out feelers locally and not posting on a world wide forum.

 

There were always only going to be two definite outcomes to your postings. Either people would think that you were a plant by the antis, or people in the pigeon fancy who are opposed to field sports, and there are many of them, would take grave exception to what you were asking. discretion on your part would have avoided both.