Birds lame after vaccination for Paratyphoid

[W.D.]

3 of 11 my stock cocks are lame after vaccinating them last week for Paratyphoid.

They had 15 days on Parastop beforehand, then given 2/3 of the rec dose as I was running short of product to do them all, having done rest of team beforehand.They were vaccinated with the Chevita live vaccine. This is the 1st time they have been done for it, th others have shown no side effects.

What I would like to know is if this is normal and if so for how long will they remain like this?

[WUL.D]

quite common for some birds to look very poorly after a paratyphoid jag, they will pick up after 3/4 days then look really well after 10-14 days, nothing to worry about...

[jakjak]

I would like to say well done mate for telling us about this.........must be 'doing your head in'

this vaccination has been debated many times on PB

And I am sure someone on here could help

[REDCHEQHEN]

I don't think the live vaccine is approved in this country - so I doubt that care would have been taken with the correct storage facilities (ie refrigerated, as they're supposed to be refrigerated in the mail as well)

 

Also  - I thought you were supposed to give a certain amount of time between antibiotics and vaccination - the antibiotics are surely going to leave your birds in a weakened state, their guts will be susceptible to infiltration due to lack of gut flora decimated by the antibiotics

 

JMO

[Guest stb-]

I DONE  MY Y B THIS YEAR AND 3 COULDNT FLY THERE WINGS WENT KNACKERED .

 

ONE WAS OK AGAIN THE OTHER TWO DID NOT REGAIN THE USE OF THERE WINGS  :B

 

THE OTHER 47 WERE FINE

[Guest peter4pm]

it sounds like a few birds take a bad reaction to the vaccine ?

[Guest mick bowler]

If you vaccinate and have side effects like lameness it means they had it before you vaccinated!

[Guest Jargre-]

I don't think the live vaccine is approved in this country - so I doubt that care would have been taken with the correct storage facilities (ie refrigerated, as they're supposed to be refrigerated in the mail as well)

 

Also  - I thought you were supposed to give a certain amount of time between antibiotics and vaccination - the antibiotics are surely going to leave your birds in a weakened state, their guts will be susceptible to infiltration due to lack of gut flora decimated by the antibiotics

 

JMO

No, the anti-biotic would build the system up ready to take the vaccination but you are right, you should give some time between both, couple of weeks is what I do, three most.  Some birds can go bad but only if they were weak anyway, birds are like humans, some of us can take the flu jab, others get laid up in bed for weeks.   Hope everything goes okay for the original poster.

 

 

[OLDYELLOW]

No, the anti-biotic would build the system up ready to take the vaccination but you are right, you should give some time between both, couple of weeks is what I do, three most.  Some birds can go bad but only if they were weak anyway, birds are like humans, some of us can take the flu jab, others get laid up in bed for weeks.   Hope everything goes okay for the original poster.

 

 

wrong a antibiotic works by suppresing the immune system thus making them more susceptable to infections whilst clearing the infection !!!!

[OLDYELLOW]

http://www.silvio-co.com/pigeons/medicati.htm

[greenlands]

I've never vaccinated for para.but am considering doing the young birds,reading through various post there seems to be a problem somewhere.Is there a set procedure for vaccination,I would like to get it right and not loose any valuable youngsters.

   I would  thank WD for letting fanciers know that there are pitfalls and hope his birds pull through the problem with no side effects.

Lindsay.

[jimmy white]

If you vaccinate and have side effects like lameness it means they had it before you vaccinated!

 

i would consider this most likely

[just ask me]

If you vaccinate and have side effects like lameness it means they had it before you vaccinated!

 

think u are right  

[Guest stb-]

I've never vaccinated for para.but am considering doing the young birds,reading through various post there seems to be a problem somewhere.Is there a set procedure for vaccination,I would like to get it right and not loose any valuable youngsters.

   I would  thank WD for letting fanciers know that there are pitfalls and hope his birds pull through the problem with no side effects.

Lindsay.

 

Lyndsay i have done mine for a good number of years now and this year is the only time i have noticed a  problem  with any.

 

Its like any vaccine some take reactions .

 

Over the years i have seen peoples birds collapse and die with paramyxo vaccine

 

but that is only now and then  

[holmsidelofts]

No, the anti-biotic would build the system up ready to take the vaccination but you are right, you should give some time between both, couple of weeks is what I do, three most.  Some birds can go bad but only if they were weak anyway, birds are like humans, some of us can take the flu jab, others get laid up in bed for weeks.   Hope everything goes okay for the original poster.

 

 

antibiotics kill good bacteria as well as bad so i would always get some probiotics in them after treatment has finished. regarding the chevita live vaccine i get it from a vet so im pretty sure its transported correctly. I have never had any issues with it, but i always give them amoxycilin for 10 days prior. Im not that keen on parastop, thats why i use amoxycilin as i know this kills salmonella. it sounds like the birds were carriers if you people have issues after vaccination. i have never had an issue like i said.

 

 

[sammy]

If you vaccinate and have side effects like lameness it means they had it before you vaccinated!

 

would have to agree with you BUT he has treated the birds for the recommended 15days with parastop which should heave cleared anything lying about there system ,so it leaves you with the cocnlcusion that this parastop is a load of rubbish  ;)and dont do what its supposed to

[sox]

 

wrong a antibiotic works by suppresing the immune system thus making them more susceptable to infections whilst clearing the infection !!!!

 

agree whitch is why you would give vitopro or something simular to build the bird back up ! is it possible when you injected you might ave hit a nerve ?

[Guest shippy]

mick bowler is correct in my opinion i have been doing mine for 3yrs now after the first time no side effects what so ever but did get sideeffects first time because they were carrying paratyphoid

[deb]

We have always used Chevi-Vac S for paratyphoid vaccination,and had no side effects. Deb.  

[Guest ENDFLIGHT]

HOMER49,come on homer,give us a clue.or is it SILENCE IS GOLDEN ? :)

[Guest j.bamling]

Mick is exactly right these birds what are showing side effects of Paratyphoid are the carriers,,, I have injected pigeons for paratyiphoid many times however i haven't done it for a couple of years but if any show signs after the jab they must be removed from the lofts as they are carriers and will only do more damage in the long run

It is also quite normal for them to look a bit ill for a few days after the injection as does a young pup after they have had there jabs

 

I used to use Alta-bactine for 14 days then fresh water for 3 days then the injection

[Guest Owen]

There is a high chance that your birds were carriers and you have had a reaction. You would have better killing off the paratyphoid by using amoxicllin or baytril for ten days before the vaccination. Then put them on probiotics and mutivits and vaccinate after a three day rest. They should stay on probiotics and I like to use cider vinegar, in small doses, every day for at least a fortnght.

I would agrue that you may have been lucky because you now know that the birds were harbouring the disease and that was never any good.

[greenlands]

Hi Owen ,what would you consider cider vinegar at a low dose to be,my birds get it upto 5 days a week at 5ml/litre.

Lindsay.

[Guest IB]

I have said a number of times since Vic’s  Paratyphoid thread went up in 2008, that this practice of antibiotic treatment followed by live vaccine did not make sense as it went against the flow of what the Animal Health Authorities and Pharmaceutical Companies like Beyer (makers of Baytril) recommended throughout the EU.

 

I also said that it probably does the very opposite on the pigeons than you intended. I’m still working on this but I can give two pieces of  information that should at least sound a warning in fanciers’ minds, and call a halt to this practice pending further information.

 

(1) From the Institute of Animal Health website:-

 

There is increasing evidence that vaccination using live attenuated vaccines may select more virulent pathogens.

 

http://www.iah.ac.uk/ISPG/AID.shtml

 

In other words using live vaccine can create more deadly Salmonella.

 

(2) From a research paper. They used a different antibiotic but the results were just as expected. Yes, less shedding of salmonella in droppings. But more infections in the major organs. They created Salmonella carriers.

 

Induction of the Carrier State in Pigeons Infected with Salmonella enterica Subspecies enterica Serovar Typhimurium PT99 by Treatment with Florfenicol:

 

Introduction

Although vaccination is a valuable part of a control program, it does not eliminate the possibility of a clinical infection in a pigeon aviary but mainly reduces clinical symptoms and mortality (12, 15). Antimicrobial treatment is often used as an aid to control salmonellosis in the aviary. However, Salmonella bacteria may persist inside pigeon macrophages, a niche in which these microorganisms are well protected from most antimicrobial agents (11). It has been suggested previously, but not clearly proven, that antimicrobial treatment may promote the carrier state (16)

 

Results

The predicted therapeutic failure of the oral florfenicol treatment of pigeons after inoculation with Salmonella serovar Typhimurium was reflected in the creation of Salmonella carriers (6 of the 10 animals) that did not shed the bacteria in detectable numbers in the feces but in which high numbers of Salmonella bacteria persisted in the tissues. Actually, the internal organs of the florfenicol-treated pigeons exhibited higher Salmonella burdens than those of the untreated ones. This result is in agreement with the finding that the concentrations of florfenicol in plasma were not high enough to inhibit intracellular persistency inside macrophages. Such pigeons thus would pose a serious health threat to previously unexposed animals. This finding supports the hypothesis that the antimicrobial treatment of animals for Salmonella infection may promote the Salmonella carrier state, which would be of special importance for food-producing animals such as poultry and pigs.

 

Despite the persistency of Salmonella in high numbers in the pigeon tissues, oral florfenicol treatment of pigeons experimentally inoculated with Salmonella serovar Typhimurium markedly reduced fecal shedding and improved the fecal consistency. This finding suggests that the clinical recovery of pigeons from paratyphoid due to antimicrobial treatment is not necessarily correlated with decreases of the Salmonella loads in the internal organs.

 

In conclusion, the oral application of florfenicol for the treatment of paratyphoid in pigeons results in lower fecal shedding and less severe clinical symptoms than those in untreated animals but contributes to the development of carrier animals through sub-MIC concentrations in plasma that do not inhibit intracellular persistency.

 

I've attached the full papre [PDF]

[HOMER49]

HOMER49,come on homer,give us a clue.or is it SILENCE IS GOLDEN ? :)

 

Hi Billy

The Four Seasons 1964 great song and every fancier should read the book ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Cheers

Homer 49