Electrolytes after the race

[jimmy white]

any body else views on this ???

[carl]

If my birds havnt been fed for 24 hours the dropping get loose so it must have something to do with missing a meal and the fact they have a to fly home burning energy,the droopings stay wet until the next day after a race.

[Guest]

Maybe misunderstood my 'missed a meal' Jimmy.  

 

My birds have food before them all the time. I usually feed Friday's 'last' meal an hour earlier around 3pm (i.e. I freshen up their pots) so that they have a pick and a drink and are well settled well before basketing around 5pm.

 

The 'missed meal' is their last 'pick' from the pot before perching up on Friday night, and 'first pick' first light Saturday morning.

 

I take what you say about reading, Jimmy. But the words I used in my post to answer the question you asked me was 'my experience'. I didn't read it - I saw it.

 

You are slightly adrift again on the physiology side. Toxins are filtered from the blood by the kidneys, which need fluid to work. In 'the runs', the excess water is coming from the 'gut', not the kidneys. And yes, you are right that everything in the gut is lost - water, salts, bacteria, undigested food, even the gut wall lining - but a pigeon at a race doesn't have excess water, or anything else in its gut. In fact in certain circumstances, it doesn't even have enough water on board to keep its blood 'fluid'.

 

So if you want to help the bird flush toxins out of its body - give it the water that its kidneys need to do the job nature designed them for.

 

 

[celtic]

Views on what/ your runs or eloctrolytes ;D ;D ;D

[jimmy white]

electrolytes are used after the race         les parkinson     e mail.

on normal droppings the white creamy top of the dropping is urine,the rest is sh** to put it bluntly, when a bird comes home after a hard fly, this is combined together to make loose droppings which are toxins built up on its hard fly, the bird loses weight, through this . to build the bird up quicker, i give them electrolytes, which contains, valuable amino acids, glucose sugar and salt among other things, potasium etc.

pigeons need salt, put a coo lick in your loft when their feeding young , theil pick at it all day, why?   because they have lost or are loosing electrolytes.

[celtic]

Where do i get a coo lick?

[celtic]

Would drum feeds at gilmerton do it jimmy/

[jimmy white]

ill get back to you on that one celtic  and explain      jimmy

[jimmy white]

   ELECTROLYTES  , REHYDRATION SALTS.OR MINERAL SALTS ,SUCH AS POTASIUM ,CALCIUM,MAGNESIUM, SODIUM,ETC, AS CARL STATED EARLIER. HELP CONTROL FLUID BALANCE IN THE ORGANS AND TISSUES, BY BALANCING THE ACID BASED CONDITION IN OUR BIRDS,BODY FLUIDS..ADDED ELECTROLYTES HELP SHORTEN RECOVERY PERIOD, AFTER PHYSICAL STRESS SUCH AS RACING OR FEEDING YOUNG

[Guest]

You’ll be familiar with the expression “like a dose of salts”.  An internet search turns up some of the ways it is used in the English language e.g.:

 

sudden illness which can go through your cattery like a dose of salts

 

 

Where does the phrase come from? Epsom Salts, a purgative; hence the phrase “goes through you like a dose of salts”.

 

 

What is the effect of too much salt (any of the “salts” i.e. minerals) ? DIARRHOEA See:

 

http://www.eatwell.gov.uk/healthydiet/nutritionessentials/vitaminsandminerals/

 

 

How the kidneys work. (humans, but the same principle applies to birds).

 

http://www.purchon.com/biology/kidney.htm

 

 

Now Jimmy, can I remind you of an earlier post of yours:

 

“NORMAL PIGEONS CANT SWEAT AND THEY DONT LOSE ELECTROLYTES.

THEY CAN ONLY LOOSE ELECTROLYTES WHEN THEY HAVE DIARRHEA AND AT THAT MOMENT ITS NECESSARY TO GIVE ELECTROLYTES.

 

DR VANDERSPEN”

 

les parkinson’s email is so full of inaccuracies that frankly I would be embarrassed to put even my forum name to it:

 

on normal droppings the white creamy top of the dropping is urine, (its urates) the rest is sh** (and urine) to put it bluntly, when a bird comes home after a hard fly, this is combined together (can’t, bird hasn’t eaten food to create sh**) to make loose droppings which are toxins built up on its hard fly, the bird loses weight, through this .(wrong, major cause of weight loss - 14% of the normal body weight - is loss of water) to build the bird up quicker, i give them electrolytes, which contains, valuable amino acids, glucose sugar and salt among other things, potasium etc. (obviously doesn’t know what amino acids are, that glucose and sugar are sugars, that salt and potassium are salts)

pigeons need salt, (not when they have a salt / water imbalance) put a coo lick in your loft when their feeding young , theil pick at it all day, why? because they have lost or are loosing electrolytes. (not according to Dr  Vanderspen, and others)

 

Now I know that there is quite a bit of reading here. But one thing should become clear at the end of it. Giving a bird salts when it already has a salt / water imbalance, doesn't help it recover and actually makes things worse by giving it diarrhoea. It wasn’t the hard fly that caused the loose droppings into the next day – it’s because the bird has been given more salts. The proof of that is in what I have posted here and earlier: my experience with my own birds (I don’t give them electrolytes after a race and their droppings are formed up within an hour or so, while others who do are into the next day before the droppings come back to normal.) and the transporter research findings: given plain water the bird is fully rehydrated after 30 minutes. Only when the bird has full water reserves will the kidneys be able to fully function again and first flush the toxins stored within them, and then filter and flush those still circulating in the blood.

 

And don’t be misled into believing that all this comes from recent reading – I recall most of it from botany & zoology, and human anatomy & physiology at secondary school 45 years ago. I’ve maintained and improved upon that knowledge by continuing to question what is behind what I see and hear, and trying to find out more. I try things out, but only when I know it is safe to do so. When all's said and done - there is a bird depending on me to do exactly that.

 

 

[PIGEON_MAN]

BRUNO, DONT WISH TO FUEL THE FIRE ANY MORE BY MENTIONING SALTS BUT WHAT IS YOUR OPPINION OF ADDING GLUCOSE AFTER A RACE AS MY BIRDS GET A MIXTURE WHICH IS ABOUT 80%.

[Guest Doostalker]

I have been reading this with interest and as usual can agree with much of what people are saying.    

 

However, I always give my birds glucose based solutions in their water on return from a race. I think they need it to help them return to normal as quickly as possible. I didn;t do this, and only gave them ordinary water until I got a hold of Pigeon Health Management by Dr Colin Walker. In it he says:-

 

"Water and Electrolytes.

 

During exertion, both water and electrolytes are lost from the bird's system. These need to be correctly replaced to restore the bird's sense of well being and to speed recovery. With short or easy races, plain water and access to grit and a pink mineral (eg PMV Powder) will be sufficient. However, with extreme exertion, significant levels of electrolytes will be lost. If the birds are allowed to drink plain water upon return, this further dilutes those remaining electrolytes, leading to a condition called "water intoxication" and results in a prolonged recovery. Recovery is therefore speeded by the use of electrolytes in the water."

 

He then goes on to list the types of electolytes he reconmmends but he says they should all contain simple sugars and probiotics. The quicker the bowel function is allowed to return to normal the quicker the droppings will get back to normal obviously. He also recommends that food must always be available on retuyrn. This should be high in energy and calories and low in protein. Protein heavy feeding can be done some hours later.

 

Basically, he is saying that all food and water given after racing should be balanced to ensure a quick return to normal, and should take into account the  type of race the birds have had.

 

Droppings are made up of three components viz digested food - browny green; solid urine (urates) - white; liquid urine - clear. Food consumption in a race is reduced or absent, but urine production is constant if the bird is adequately hydrated. So when they return the droppings consist only of the creamy white and clear urine parts.Within a few hours after return, and having eaten and taken water, the droppings should be normal. He also says that electrolyte imbalance and slow recovery will lead to crop muscle dysfunction and cause delayed crop emptying.

 

[Guest Doostalker]

Earlier in the thread there was some debate about grit being given before the reace. Bruno and others were of the opinion that they should be removed from the birds prior to racing.

 

Walker says " Any grits, pick stones or other supplements that contain excessive (more than 2%) salt should be removed 1-2 days before basketing but returned to the loft before the birds return."

 

The bold print is my addition. It is obvious that he is recommending no excessive salts prior to recing whether given in grit OR in their water. So additional electrolytes in their water before a race is out too.

[Guest]

Pigeon_man, I have no problem with glucose after the race as a quick pick me up. To be honest I think that many electrolytes are mainly sugars anyway. In fact next year I was toying with the idea of trying honey & garlic for coming home from the race.

 

Doostalker, my original post was sparked off by the differing opinions held on electrolytes lost / not lost (Can't really remember who the two vets were) and then coming across 'blood chemistry' results in a study specifically on pigeons going to a race, which showed only water loss, with the 'salts' remaining behind causing all sorts of problems for the bird. I've been chasing my tail ever since and everything I have turned up so far supports 'no additional salt' outside of what is already available to them 24/7. Your breakdown of liquid urine, urate paste and waste solids also supports my understanding of what is going on. During flight : all food in the gut is used up for flight energy. When 'food' is exhausted, the gut is shut down to conserve water and energy; all avialable water is used up by the lungs to keep the bird breathing and 'cool', initially even at the expense of keeping the blood fluid, the water / salts imbalance causes it to become thicker and the heart has to work harder to pump it around the body. There is absolutely sod all water to flush anything down the 'tubes'.  

 

And again, to stress the point, how many pigeons home from the race (1) go straight to the drinker (2) go straight to the mineral pots.  The answers are all and none, I suspect.  

[Guest]

Hi Rose, thanks for the tip about glucose / honey in the water after the race. Thinking of giving it a try with garlic & honey.  

 

On your second post (salt before the race) it was this very aspect, a study of what happens to the race birds while they are in the transporter, that helped give rise to this thread. The results were alarming with birds losing 14% of their body weight in water dehydration - and that was after only over a 23 hour period in the crate - even before the race began. Maybe taking steps to regulate the birds' salts intake in the days prior to basketing might help them get through this.

[Guest]

Well here's the folks and article that started all the stushie.  ;D  ;D   ;D

 

Runs to 4 pages, copy and paste job into a word document, methinks.

 

Flying racing pigeons in the heat.

With regard to the strange races of section 7 in Holland, where pigeons came home totally dehydrated and lost 30% of their bodyweight, I asked a number of our authors to comment. How they look upon it you can read below.

 

1. Dr. Colin Walker:

 

There is no single disease that comes to mind that would cause the symptoms, however, any disease can make the races particularly taxing for the birds and prolong recovery. I would imagine however, that you have already had all of the routine checks done to ensure that your birds are healthy. The two most common diseases that lead to excessive thirst during racing are wet canker and respiratory infection causing inflamed air sacs.

 

Wet canker: the trichomonad organisms produce a toxin that makes the birds thirsty. When the air sacs become inflamed they lose their moisture conserving ability and the birds lose excessive moisture in the exhaled air. When correcting the ensuing dehydration they often over-compensate and drink excessively. As you say however, there may be concern that the conveyers are not watering and feeding the birds adequately. Experiments have shown that pigeons deprived of water for 24 hours at 25C become 5% dehydrated. Given the pigeon’s high body temperature (41.7C) and the number put in race baskets, the temperature within the basket can get much higher, even on cold days particularly if the race basket is poorly ventilated. Even birds that are only slightly dehydrated can be expected to orientate poorly and take longer to recover.

 

2. Bob Rowland: Scientific answer about flying in the heat:

 

Total heat load = environmental temperature + body temperature + UV thermal Load. If you change any one of these variables you change the bird’s total metabolic rate which corresponds to a high energy demand and thereby higher consumption of minerals, fat, and other vitamins.

 

 

3. Dr. Wim Peters – responding to Bob Rowland’s views:

 

A controversial thing is the use of corn for long distance races. A farmer (not a pigeon guy) once told me corn in hot weather should be like poison for pigeons. The salt in corn would create tremendous thirst in hot weather. I would rather load up with different carbohydrates, e.g. Rice, or Rice soaked in water. Peanuts are another questionable fad. I believe they are good in cool weather and bad in hot weather, at least close to race day, not sure why or scientifically, but that has been my experience.

 

Electrolytes

 

Pigeons do not sweat - so where is the loss of the electrolytes, that have to be replaced, supposed to come from? It is stated that sodium and other salts are excreted when bound to lactic acid and that the lactic acid forms when the pigeons do anaerobic exercise (exercise in the absence of oxygen). It is my contention that racing pigeons have no anaerobic exercise and therefore conserve their salts.

 

Unless a pigeon is losing electrolytes in some form, maybe with enteritis or when the kidneys have been damaged by PMV, there is NO need to use them or when birds vomit, have diarrhea and so on. In these cases their use is absolutely essential , but not for healthy pigeons.

 

 

4. John Sampson.

 

I find Dr. Wim Peters views very interesting. Why do we give electrolytes before a race? Is it to make the birds thirsty? Why do we give them after a race? I know people that give Pedialyte before long races that do very well and others who do it and don't do well. I have tried it and did not do well that day, but maybe it had nothing to do with Pedialyte?

 

I think birds kept closer to nature in the hot weather will do better assuming they have all the attributes of a good racing pigeon. When we have a long, hard, hot race why is it some old timers who don't know an electrolyte from a vitamin, don't train, don't medicate very much, etc, but yet they always seem to get good birds. We are also told vitamins and some grains can cause thirst as well, so perhaps the street pigeons can handle the heat better than our thoroughbreds? I never saw one panting at the Mall. I believe in medication and proper diet, but I also think we are too good to our pigeons sometimes and consequently do them more harm than good.

Some of my observations on temperature, humidity, dew point, etc. in relation to pigeons. Yesterday in different parts of the country I got the following information.

 

84 degrees, 72% dew point, 66% humidity (rain)

89 degrees, 55% dew point, 100% humidity (no rain)

 

How is it we can have 100% humidity but yet a low dew point and vice versa? The only thing I know for sure is when the temperature and dew point are the same we have fog, yet temperature and humidity have no relation to fog. Humid air is thicker, heavier, harder to breathe, ask anyone with lung problems. Not sure about high dew point air being thicker or heavier but I would think it would be similar. I'm not sure about any relationship with humid air and wing flapping, but I know with my lung condition, it's harder to breathe and move around. Why is it even on a "cool day" with "high dew" point pigeons get overheated?

 

Personally I think dew point is the killer, not temperature or humidity, another killer is "lack of cloud cover" on a day with bright sunshine. What causes cramp in the legs when flying in hot weather or hard day, is it from holding the legs down in the air to cool off? Not sure if that's a fact or an old wives tail, but I heard if a pigeon can cool his feet down it helps cool his whole body?

 

Our driver is instructed to have water before the birds 1 hour before release. I have talked with him many times about this and he said the minute they see him the only thing on their mind is the doors opening and water is the last thing on their mind. Of course on a race with 2 day shipping they will drink. I'm not sure if water is that important before a short race in hot weather. I agree it might be good for them, but how do you get them to take a drink? Many clubs do not feed the birds on a 2 day race, they don't think it's good and makes the birds thirsty.

 

5. Wim Peters.

 

I'm against the use of electrolytes in pigeons (p 216). Colin Walker, in his latest book (p 144) has a different opinion. His argument is that the lactic acid, which is produced at the time of anaerobic exercise, bonds with sodium and other salts to facilitate excretion and is thus lost. This causes loss of electrolytes and a prolonged recuperation period. To prevent this state he recommends electrolyte 'replacement'. Now if electrolytes were lost I would agree with the rationale but does the bird do any anaerobic exercise when flying normally? Some people here, particularly those in the more humid areas, now wish to use them also before a race. (It's fairly widely believed that the birds will be properly hydrated!). I don't like it but maybe I'm missing something? I see that Colin W also advises half-strength electrolytes prior to basketing.

 

 

6. Gordon Chalmers reply to Wim Peters

 

I seldom use electrolytes on my own birds. My general feeling has been not to use them at all (exception - possibly in cases of severe fluid loss as in diarrhea). I just don't see the point of using them before a race, since, if birds are managed correctly and have access to a wide-ranging mineral mix at all times, their electrolytes should be at normal levels. Adding electrolytes might just induce unnecessary thirst. I have thought that at times, birds could use electrolytes on their return from a race, but even then I'm reluctant to use them. I much prefer fresh water with no additives when they arrive, but later in the day, I'll add some glucose or fructose. I really don't like the idea of half-strength electrolytes as advocated by Colin - my view is that it's better to avoid them entirely ahead of shipping, and let the birds balance their own systems without electrolytes after they return.

 

During a race any significant alteration to the regular rate of the wing beat at cruising speed (on average, a normal rate of 5.4 beats per second) such as explosive or dodging bursts of speed, pulling hard against the wind, braking to land, etc. can induce anaerobic glycolysis. That results in the production of some level of lactic acid.

 

 

7. Dr. Wim Peters.

 

Racing your pigeons when the temps exceed 30 degrees C becomes problematical. (I cannot agree with Bob R who states that 20 to 35 degrees is 'the ideal range'. I'm sure he didn’t mean it like this.)

 

Pigeons flying in hot conditions can only lower their body temperature by increasing the evaporation rate from the mouth, throat and lungs. Doing so in the absence of drinking water increases the possibility (danger) of dehydration. The alternative is to reduce or stop its physical exertion - flying. This accounts for the slow velocities and high losses whenever such high temps occur on long distance races particularly. Whenever the temperature exceeds 30 degrees problems begin. Of course there are some birds that can handle high temps better than others. It has a genetic background but roughly speaking the heavier birds are less heat-tolerant than the lighter and smaller-framed.

 

Racing the pigeons in humid conditions reduces their ability to handle high temperatures.

 

Any hindrance to the evaporation rate creates difficulties. Under humid conditions evaporation is drastically reduced and hot conditions can become unbearable.

 

 

In both the above, the position is seriously aggravated when the birds have to battle a headwind. They keep low above the ground (where it is hotter) and have to work harder against the wind pushing up their body temperatures. Results of races on hot headwind days are usually dismal.

 

I do not believe that the administration of electrolytes is of any benefit

 

Unless a pigeon is losing Electrolytes there is NO need to use them. Pigeons on a normal temperate day will drink about 50 ml water. On the day that the electrolytes were given it was hotter than usual and the birds accordingly drank more. The fact that there were electrolytes in the water had little to do with their total intake. They had loose bowels because they were given what amounts to a clean-out - as if given Epsom salts. The loose bowels acted as if a purgative had been administered and this action alone would ensure that these birds would drink more water. In fact it could be so dehydrating that they could die if water were totally absent!

 

8. Leo Turley.

 

I too raised an eyebrow when I saw Bob’s 35C maximum. We in Western Australia fly over what is classified as hot desert (especially our inland route) from say 250 miles and beyond and need to draw the line at 24C and slightly higher in a tail wind, where birds can achieve relative altitude commensurate with cooling. Above 24C, wayside water, or the lack of it, dictates whether the birds can carry on after a certain number of hours on the wing. In looking at the maximum 24C here in WA, one needs to judge the velocity of the race, calculate where the birds will be on the course in relation to maximum temperature for the area, whether 24C or higher is being forecast and whether wayside water is readily available. I think it pertinent to quote what I wrote to Steven Van Breemen:

 

"Steven... I read Bob's article and I can't agree with his acceptable temperature range of 20 - 35C... without adequate water along the race course. I believe that without wind assistance anything over 24C is fatal. Here in Western Australia where we race in the heat and in true hot desert country with very little wayside water available and this is the key... temperature is of no consequence if there is plenty of wayside water. I believe it now necessary (here in WA) to have water before the birds before release for at least the same time as it has taken time to travel without water, so they can rehydrate (their hematocrit).

 

9. Bob Rowland

 

I would like to say that the temperature range I gave was dealing only with temperatures without other considerations. For example, 35'C with high humidity is much different than racing at 35'C with low humidity. The more humidity, the more water in the air. The adverse effect of the high humidity is heavy air which makes for extra effort needed to flap their wings. At lower humidity, the air is lighter and therefore less tiring for the pigeons to complete the course.

 

Regardless of the temperature, the pigeons can not stay in the air very long in the rain and again for the same reason, the effort to move their wings becomes greater and the point of inability to flap any longer comes sooner. Rain is 100% humidity or perhaps even greater depending on how we would calculate it. I prefer the lower end of the temperature scale as this makes for an easier task even in greater humidity but again, not too low or the pigeon must exert extra energy to create heat for warming the air or this can also create severe problems. I pointed out what the best range could be and then the additional factors need to be factored in. One can not give a one statement fits all scenario as certainly common sense tells us that racing in the desert must certainly be different than racing in the tropics even at precisely the same temperature.

 

Re. Wim’s  belief that the administration of electrolytes is of any benefit: This could be a true statement if we were only trying to race a pigeon that is in perfect electrolyte balance and in the absolute best optimal condition and the distances were just ideal  etc. The reason for having pigeons take the electrolytes is twofold. First to make sure they have enough for the proper balance and second, to consume more water than they normally would so that they will pack their cells with the water and are not beginning the journey without enough water to complete the trip. When we try to believe that all pigeons will be given equal treatment by the convoyer, I prefer to think that if I can give them a head start going in that this certainly can't hurt much. If I did not help them, did I hurt them by giving them a possible edge?

 

 

 

 

[Guest Doostalker]

Bruno, this looks like one of these cases where you believe whoever you think is right, because it seems that even the experts don't seem to agree.

 

I regularly read both Wim Peters and Colin Walker, and there are sometimes occasions where their advice seems to be at odds. Using personal judgement I choose which I want to follow, and if it isn't to my liking, or more importantly, my birds liking, I will look at the other option.

 

Like so many things in life, we make a decision based on information and experience.

 

Just to emphasise the difference in opinions we can get, can I go back to something you said in post 12 of this thread about loss of body weight:-

 

"If it reaches 18% during flight - the bird dies."

 

I agree with your figures of 18%.

 

Yet in post 42 above you quote someone as saying:-

 

"Flying racing pigeons in the heat.

With regard to the strange races of section 7 in Holland, where pigeons came home totally dehydrated and lost 30% of their bodyweight"

 

Seems to be a major contradiction here, 30% just seems to be ott to me.

 

 

[jimmy white]

theres a very simple solution here,, which ive tried      send a team of racers from two sections   to decent hard race      give one lot electrolytes    the other plain water and see for yourself which birds droppings go back to normal quickest.      nobody fools me   with big words , and who said this or that,   simple answer ,  try it for yourself, the birds that have had electrolytes    recouperate quicker.     very,  very, easy to find out,    without words.  [ experience]      try it.

[Guest]

Yes, agree with you Doostalker, on all counts: experts that can't agree (what chance does that give us of getting it right?) and Steven Van Breemen seems OTT @ 30% body weight loss. Reckon that was after the bird had been fly-cooked.  ;D

 

Apologies for having the article and not knowing it: thought I'd read it in BHW when in fact it was a web job all along which I'd filed on my computer under electrolytes - definitely no chance of finding it ever again there then  

 

But in the final analysis, it is just that: these people are pigeon fanciers and vets; the research work which proved no electrolyte loss was carried out by scientists in controlled conditions, on behalf of the Dutch Homing Union, their work documented and published in November 1995:

 

Chapter 3. Discussion. Effects of water deprivation.

 

"Dehydration resulting from water deprivation increases serum electrolyte and protein concentrations" (Thornton, 1986) and this ..stress reduces the evaporated water loss (Brummermann and Rautenberg 1989). "

 

That reduces the water avialable for normal body cooling through the lungs, the heart has to work harder to pump 'thickened' blood around the body, and the bird's body temperature begins to rise...

 

 

[Guest]

Well, that's just the point Jimmy.  

 

I've NEVER given any of my birds electrolytes from any race over the past 3 years. And they recover within an hour or two.

 

You HAVE. And according to your own words, it takes until at least next day for them to recover.

 

[jimmy white]

sir colin  b bar cock su 89 p 3148in 1991 was 12th sect 60th open scottish national sartilly     over 500 miles   . in 1992 he was 12th sect 25th open nantes,scottish national  over 600 miles   in 1993 he was sent to scottish national sartilly, over 500 miles, he was 82nd sect   136th open , he was then givenELECTROLYTES FOR 3 DAYS then, approx  THREE weeks after that, he was sent to scottish national nantes, over 600 miles, and in a cold blasting head north wind, was 1st sect.  2nd national NOW AFTER MORE THAN 50 YEARS EXPERIENCE WITH PIGEONS and trying the experiment i mentioned before, does anyone think i would have even chanced giving giving him electrolytes, if i thought it was going to be detrimental to that pigeon

incidently, the section he flew in was the biggest in the scottish national.    with due respect bruno, i do not doubt that you have done your homework, but words can be misintepretated, which can be a dangerous thing, and thats not getting at you,we are all . including me, liable to misintepritation, i understand doostalkers   findings, this has to be some kind of misinterpretation, or it would be immpossible, theres a big differance in 18 p.c than 30 p.c.   youve obviously , collected a lot of information on peoples against electrolytes, but it would just be as easy to get the same ammount of information on peoples  for. electrolytes, we are all human and all have differant opinions at times, but for myself, i beleive in trying things for myself, i have tried this and found it beneficial to recovery, after a hard , strenuous race, so these are my findings., so how can i deny myself that it works for me, fanciers may have differant opinions on this, but they are entitled to their opinions,,, i allways say try before you buy, then see if it suits you, if it does, buy ,it if it doesnt , dont.

[jimmy white]

that last point was exactly what i was talking about MISINTERPRETATION   after a very hard fly it can take up to the second day before the droppings are right, BUT ,GIVEN ELECTROLYTES, SPEEDS THIS RECOVERY TIME UP, HAVE YOU EVER SEEN A BIRD AFTER 17 HOURS ON THE WING//?OR FELT IT,   TO PUT IT MILDLY ITS COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY DRAINED .   SO PLEASE DO NOT TWIST MY WORDS.

[Guest]

While there has certainly been a good deal of misinterpretation, there most certainly hasn't been any twisting of words, Jimmy.   Thought you said took till second day, and not "could take till second day". Apologies for that.  

 

Reading your post (and Doostalker's again) I believe both you and he have also misinterpretated the "I" in the article as "lil ol me" : wrong.    It's Steven Van Breemen's work - he asked the people who contribute articles to his web magazine (to confuse people like myself    ;D ) to comment on a bad race. Some of them had something to say about electrolytes (2 for, 2 against, Jimmy - can't get better balance of opinion than that         and certainly not my gathering of people for (or against anything) as you infer.

 

Now I could take offence at someone 3 years in pigeons being asked by someone 50 years in pigeons - and with excellent SNFC results, if they've ever handled a bird home from a 500 mile channel race. But I won't, because you reminded me of the only occasion that I ever have. As a 16 year old schoolboy in my first ever (and Lanarkshire Fed's first ever) channel race from Avranches, I got a two year old blue grizzle cock on the second morning to take 4th club, a fairly minor prize, but getting him was prize enough for me.  I left home the next year. The next time I saw him he was 11 year old.

 

And no, I didn't give him electrolytes.  ;D  ;D  ;D

[jimmy white]

no apologies needed bruno , its a good debate ,at least we can speak our minds

my bit on misenterpretation  is my own personal grievance, and as i said in an earlier post ,,,can be very dangerous, this was due to a past experiences, nothing personally against you. but due to a past experience, did touch on a nerve.

when we have a debate like that , we can all learn something out of all the posts. so keep things going buddy, cheers  jimmy

[carl]

Sorry to say this but things always get a bit touchy between yous two,bruno & jimmy white.Its like listing to two university teachers having it out.All in all great subject very intresting to here your veiws.