Electrolytes after the race

[Guest]

Had picked up a difference of opinion between leading vets who are pigeon fanciers on whether electrolytes (salt / sugar) should be given to birds returning from a race:

 

"one said no - water evaporation (only) during flight exercise left high levels of salt in the birds body, so adding more salt was wrong and dangerous; other said yes as water and salt were both evaporated.

 

Quoting from a paper on pigeon dehydration etc that I am reading just now:

 

"...    Water deprivation at 37C increased the birds body temperature and reduced evaporated water loss. This might be due to an osmotically triggered (i.e. difference in salt / water densities in the body cells triggers an attempt to balance these levels out) reduction in evaporated water loss resulting in body water savings. Dehydration resulting from water deprivation increases serum eloctrolyte and protein concentrations (Thornton 1986)...    "

 

That says to me that there is no electrolyte loss in birds. Birds don't have sweat glands, they lose heat through water evaporation from the lungs. Only water. They can't lose salt through the lungs because I THINK that would compromise oxygen exchange. So they are left with an imbalance of salt which needs water - not more salt.  

 

Electrolytes therefore, appear to be more suited for mammals like man where salt and water is lost through sweat glands.

 

 

[Guest]

Bruno,

 

I have been using electrolites for many years now, but always after the birds return from the race.

 

I hear of many flyers who give them to the birds on thursday or Friday but I consider this a no no as this puts too much salt in the system and there is a very serious danger of the birds coming down for water after liberation.

 

[Guest]

Take your point about some giving electrolytes before the race, Hyacinth; have seen that practice mentioned once or twice in BHW.     Wondered at the time exactly what 'advantage' they hoped to achieve by doing this.  ??)  

 

From what I've been reading, dehydration alone (on the transporter) would mean 80% of the birds in the race were out of the reckoning even before liberation. I agree with you. Why handicap the bird further with additional salt it could well do without?  

 

Personally, after a few trials over the last couple of years, I've come to the conclusion that the best thing to put in the water on race days for the birds is ..... more water!  

 

 

[PIGEON_MAN]

SOME YEARS AGO I WAS GIVEN A RECIPE TO MIX MY OWN SALTS WHICH IS BASICALLY MADE UP OF MOSTLY GLUCOSE WITH A VERY SMALL PERCENTAGE OF TABLE SALT,BICARBONATE OF SODA AND LOW SODIUM SALT.ITS CHEAP TO MAKE UP AND SEEMS TO BE O.K. FOR THE BIRDS RETURNING FROM A RACE.WHAT DO YOU THINK BRUNO ABOUT THE INGREDIENTS.

[Guest]

I have also heard from an extremely good f;lyer in The States that he removes the grit on Wednesday evening, guess this is just another way of keeping the salt count in the bird down befor racing.

[Guest]

Pigeon_man, I'm not sure that I can make an informed comment on your ingredients, because I cannot begin to imagine what their combined effects might be.  

 

Individually though; glucose would appear to be an excellent almost immediate pick-me-up for the bird because it is the lowest 'breakable' form of sugar and would be quickly absorbed into the bird's bloodstream .

 

I have been extremely wary of giving salts of any kind outside my minerals, grit and crushed pickstone, which are before the birds 24/7, and definitely would NOT do so via the drinker. After reading the bit about the blood chemistry: definitely NO additional salt.  

 

Sodium Bicarbonate (Baking Soda) I would also not touch based on the known side effects of 'may cause digestive upset'.  'May' is too big a risk for me, whether the bird is racing or not.

[Guest speckled]

:-/ Hi i dont  give "Electrolyes" after a race,but i do give,"Rehydration Fliuds". :-/ Dont no if there is a diffrence, but i thought that one was for replacing the" body fluids " after excertion or illness ie racing,& the other, replaced" body fluids" during excertion, ie physiacl exersice, down the gym sip here sip there,from ya energy bottle. when hot,,dont know, but would like to find out if,there is a diffrence.Puzzled Speckled.

[Guest]

Hi Speckled, I'm not really sure if there is much difference but I know what you mean though, because I've seen marathon runners picking it up from the trackside tables. And the professional runners all seem to have their own special mixes.  

 

If the stuff you're using comes 'free' with your vaccine, then it's the same as mine. They call theirs 'Recovery salts'. "Supplement for use during stress or competition. Ideal after racing or to support recovery during wet droppings. Contains sugars, sodium, potassium, calcium, magnesium, Vit A, Vit B12."

 

I think it's much the same idea as the  salt / sugar rehydration to treat babies with diarrhea. I've only used mine on the last day of confinement for a bird that's been isolated for throwing up / loose droppings (after the garlic has stopped it) to rehydrate the bird as you say.  

 

Again, other for the vitamins, there's no breakdown on the mix. Could be 99% sugar!  ;D

[jimmy white]

better to win the race, then you can do the salts   SUMMERSALTS ;D ;D ;D

[jimmy white]

AS YOU HAVE PROBABLY GATHERED  IN THE PAST, I ALLWAYS LIKED TO TRY THINGS FOR MY SELF,  ,I HAVE IN THE PAST TRIED ONE SECTION WITH ELECTROLYTES AND ONE SECTION WITHOUT  [sAME RACE   200 MILES   HEAD WIND]AND FOUND THE ONES WITH THE ELECTROLYTES   RECOVERED QUICKER, SO THAT WAS GOOD  ENOUGH FOR ME, I HAVE ALSO REPEATED THIS, JUST TO MAKE SURE

[Guest]

Take your point Jimmy (I do suumersaults nowadays just seeing a bird home from a race on the same day   ;D )

 

What element(s) do you reckon are doing the 'pick-me-up' ?

[carl]

Bruno i have never used electrolytes since starting 2 years ago and had some good sucsess in racing,on return from the race my birds get a teaspoon of pure rock salt (sea salt) and a teaspoon of good quality hunny mixed into a three ltr drinker.

 

Hyachinth i have also been told to take the grit out after wedensday not sure why but i do.

[Guest]

Carl, what you give the birds is 'electrolytes' : a mixture of 'salts' and 'sugars'.  

 

While the sugars have a beneficial effect - a quick pick-me-up; there's a 'school of thought' that says giving 'salts' to race birds whose 'salt / water' balance is already 'up' on the 'salts' side, is wrong and could be dangerous. Because the bird naturally loses water through the lungs during flight exercise.

 

The removal of anything containing 'salts' on the days prior to the race, is I think, based on the recognition (by some) that most transporters lack modern day facilities and keeping salt levels 'down' may help the bird during the dehydration period where it may lose around 14% of its body weight (water) BEFORE the bird even begins flying.

 

If it reaches 18% during flight - the bird dies.  >

 

If you read last week's BHW reports for the 'classic races' for 10th September , you'll pick up bits and pieces of what you're trying to avoid / put back on race days.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[carl]

Thanks bruno,yes your rite mate hunny & salt = cheap electrolytes.Bruno during the birds flying time do they lose salt from there bodys somehow if so how.

[Guest]

Well Carl, that was the subject of a debate between (I think - don't quote me though    ) Wim Peters and Gordon Chalmers, a couple of years ago in the BHW.   ;D

 

What made me post it up was finding from another piece of research that during dehydration (loss of water from the birds body) the level of 'salts' remained the same. That caused the blood to become thicker and the bird's heart had to work harder to pump the thickened blood around the body.

 

Birds don't have sweat glands like you and I. When we need to cool down we lose heat (and with it, water and 'salts') from the pores in our skin. The only way pigeons can cool down is to lose heat (and with it, water) through the lungs. I reckon the only way a pigeon can lose 'salts' would be through the kidneys, and of course to do that they would need water too. The kidneys also regulate salt / water levels in the sense that they 'recycle' filtered water during water shortages in the body. So if the water is needed 'for the blood', it is retained. The bird's body can't spare water to flush itself of 'salts' via the kidneys, and as dehydration continues, eventually it can't spare water to remove heat through the lungs either.

 

My own opinion is that at the end of the race you have a bird gasping (dying?) for a drink of water. Knowing a wee bit more about what is / has been going on, I'd be very reluctant to put anything in the drinker, other than more water, the fresher the better.  

 

 

Oh, one piece of information I've not yet posted from that research: Within half an hour of being given access to 'ordinary' drinking water - the bird is fully rehydrated.   ;D

 

[Guest]

Use DMG in the water for 5 days b4 a race and then watch them recover after a race! They never look like they have had a race, even up to 400miles.

[Guest]

I take your point about DMG, the 'miracle product' of the age, Sbelbin.  

 

January - May 2005 I tried Aviform Ultimate, which contains DMG amongst other things. I was reluctant to put it in the drinker 5 days a week, so maintained the 'minimum' 2 days a week regime. I could see no difference in my birds with or without it, so didn't re-order when it ran out. My best performance (if you could call it that!  ;D ) occurred 2/3 weeks after I stopped using it.

 

I've included a couple of short paragraphs from a comprehensive 4/5 page article on DMG which will be of interest to you. (1) It is produced naturally in the body; (2) It isn't stored in the body.

 

"DMG is a normal, physiologically active nutrient found in low levels in such foods as cereal grains, beans and liver.  DMG is also produced in the body from Choline and Betaine as a cellular intermediate.  The liver rapidly converts DMG into other useful metabolites via a process known as oxidative dimethylation.  By this process, a methyl group of DMG can be made available for transmethylation reactions, a pathway which is essential to the production of many vital products of the cell.  Dr. J.W. Meduski of the University of Southern California has called DMG a “metabolic enhancer” because of the many ways DMG can improve cellular metabolism, especially under conditions of distress in the body.

 

 

Absorption and Storage

 

Dimethylglycine is very effectively absorbed from the digestive tract, including the oral cavity.  Sublingual ingestion of DMG provides effective and rapid absorption, effects of which are frequently evident within 20 minutes after taking the product.

 

The amino acid transfer complex for transferring DMG across the intestinal wall has been identified and is reported.  All indications are that DMG is metabolised rapidly by the liver into one and two carbon units and therefore the body does not store appreciable amounts of the nutrient."

 

I'll post the full article if you wish. It is wideranging (athletics supplements in: humans, dogs, greyhounds; medicinal uses etc. )

 

[Guest shadow]

The only thing all these additives do is to  make the makers richer. If you condition and feed your birds right the will be OK

 

fly hard fly fair.

[Guest]

Agree with you Shadow.  ;D

 

Also agree that that is exactly what Sbelbin must be doing: conditioning and feeding his birds 'right'.    And most probably sod-all to do with DMG.  

 

 

[carl]

Thanks for that bruno,so i could be using salt for nothing at all really.

Like shadow said if a bird is conditioned rite it will try its best.A very good flyer by the name of willy brennan of graham,gilchrist and brennan once told me he used to have all the products but when he stopped using them the birds still came as good so he stopped wasting money in his eyes.

[jimmy white]

ELECTROLYTES AND HYDRATION SALTS ARE THE SAME.

NORMAL PIGEONS CANT SWEAT AND THEY DONT LOSE ELECTROLYTES.

THEY CAN ONLY LOOSE ELECTROLYTES WHEN THEY HAVE DIARRHEA AND AT THAT MOMENT ITS NECESSARY TO GIVE ELECTROLYTES.

MOST OF THE TIME THE ELECTROLYTES ARE MIXED WITH ESSENTIAL AMINO ACIDS AND THEY ARE GOOD FOR THE RECUPERATION OF PIGEONS, IN THIS WAY ITS GOOD TO GIVE ELECTRO LYTES WITH ESSENTIAL AMINO ACIDS TO ACCELERATE THE RECUPERATION,,,,,,,, DR  VANDERSPEN

REMEMBERING THAT YOUR PIGEONS BUILD UP TOXINS WHEN RACING AND ON HOME COMMING ALLWAYS HAVE LOOSE DROPPINGS, SO ELECTROLYTES OR REHYDRATION SALTS ,HELP IN THE PROCESS OF RECOVERY,,,,DR  WHITE

[Guest]

With respect, Your Grace,  (Doctor of Divinity, I think   ;D  ;D ) I think you have misinterpreted what the good Doctor is saying, Jimmy.  

 

[justify]I have posted earlier that I thought most of us would have first heard about the use of 'salts & sugars' when there was huge media coverage (1960s?) in their use to save the lives of African babies who were dying in their hundreds because of dehydration caused by diarrhoea. [/justify]

 

[justify]An appalling thought that something like diarrhoea can kill, but is a good indication that diarrhoea is not 'normal'  :'(  Diarrhoea in pigeons isn't 'normal' either. If I may quote from another 'good Doctor':[/justify]

 

Wim Peters: Fit to Win (1) P31,

 

2. Droppings.

 

[justify].. daily inspection of pigeon’s droppings ..logical approach essential to distinguish early signs of disease from normal physiological fluctuations. Not always easy ...requires clear understanding ….of the normal, transient abnormal and abnormal (diseased). [/justify]

 

2.1 Normal Droppings

 

2.1.1 Green droppings

 

[justify]….usually a bad sign but there are exceptions … A small dark metallic-green dropping is seen when birds have not been fed for twenty four hours or more and is seen in nearly all birds arriving from a race. It is perfectly normal…The dropping is normally loose.[/justify]

 

2.1.2 Loose and watery droppings

 

[justify]This may be a normal physiological phenomenon when the birds …. are nervous and upset.. can occur ..when exercising…The looseness is of little consequence as the droppings quickly return to normal when (exercise) ceases. ……Without interference, equilibrium is soon re-established and one must not upset the rhythm of a fit team of birds by the injudicious use of medicines at this time.[/justify]

 

2.2 Abnormal Droppings

 

2.2.1 Watery droppings

 

[justify]Excessive water….results in a wet dropping….When a pigeon has diarrhoea… the intestinal portion (of the dropping) varies from soft and mushy to liquid and watery….Because the pigeon is unwell and does not eat adequately……Diarrhoea is an early sign of most diseases….[/justify]

 

[justify]A pigeon returning home from a race most certainly doesn't have an excess of water, Jimmy. Nor does it have diarrhoea. What is does have though, is an excess of salts. Your good Doctor supplies further proof that this is the case.  Wim Peters also says Without interference, equilibrium is soon re-established and one must not upset the rhythm of a fit team of birds by the injudicious use of medicines at this time. That, together with the results from the 'transporter dehydration study' in which all birds were fully rehydrated within 30 minutes of being given a drink of plain water, strongly suggests that the returning race bird shouldn't be given anything containing salt.

 

And I think it especially wrong to give 'salts' in the drinking water, because the bird isn't given the choice whether to take it or leave it. But it does have an alternative with stopping off at, or walking past the minerals pots, which most fanciers have available before their birds all the time, not forgetting the 'salts' in the grit and pick stones too.  [/justify]

 

 

 

 

[jimmy white]

bruno my freind  [just to keep the blood pressure down] ;D ;D

why does a pigeon , allways  from a hard fly allways have wattery droppings on arrival. and sometimes on to the next day???

[Guest]

Jimmy, my own limited experience with my own birds home from inland races has been :

 

(1) Soon after the bird arrives home, a small green & white 'splatter'. This I take to be normal because all my birds at any race do the same, and I reckoned it happens because they have missed at least one regular meal, and the work they've put in to get home 'on an empty stomach'.

 

(2) After their first drink and a light pick (seed), the droppings quickly form up and within a couple of hours of regular small titbits, gradually adding maize etc, my race birds' droppings are back to normal.  (My birds are fed and watered in their boxes).

 

I've no experience of 'problem' droppings beyond that initial 'splatter'.

[jimmy white]

no, bruno, its not because they have missed a meal,in fact the opposite, the birds sould be fed as much as possible before race days ,[not to close to basketing times]    these pigeons build up toxins ,during their flight home,, that off course is poisons,, poisons give the runs [ iknow ive just had them],, runs make them loose valuable, salts and amino acids, the quicker these are replaced, the quicker the bird recovers ,,, so instead of reading up on things, try things for yourself, thats the sure way of finding out things with pigeons ,whether they work or not, sorry to raise the blood pressure slightly :) ,, but the old saying is, the proof of the pudding is in the eating :)